Tesla Model 3 is fundamentally changing the company

[tomas]

Our plant runs 24/4 and our electric bill is huge. We run during peak, off peak, and are always pulling a ton of KW/h. Our electric bill is $15,000+ per month in NC.

Guess what? Even when you factor in peak, and off peak hours, our average charge comes out to 12 cents per KW. Tesla charges 28 cents in NC to use supercharging network. So, let's just say for simplicity sakes they are doubling their money.

I don't know about you, but covering your "costs" can mean a WHOLE bunch of things. Cost can include administrative overhead, direct operating expenses, maintenance, insurance, etc. and they could be adding in payback for the SC stalls themselves. Tesla is clearly charging an inflated price now to cover the gross mismanagement of free supercharging and high overhead.

What I'm saying, is charge ONLY for the electricity that Tesla gets billed for plus the lot lease fee. That would add, depending on volume, only about 5 cents to the cost or roughly 17 cents per KW and that cost would decrease significantly with more traffic.

Tesla, since they don't advertise, should allocate what would be an Advertisement and sales budget to the SC network build out. A Supercharger is relatively cheap to build and with Tesla saving BILLIONS of dollars every year, they could add thousands every year with that money.

What is your peak charge? Don’t you think most supercharging is at peak? I think so.

 

[Knightshade]

I think you are misunderstanding when Tesla says they are only charging for their costs without any markup. They are undoubtedly factoring in all the cars that have FUSC and free limited SC. We both agree on that, now how much of the cost plays into that? Who knows. What if they were charging 45 cents per kw? Hell they could go up to 50 cents per Kw and say it is covering their costs.

MY point is this, that the rates they charge now are extraordinarily high for electricity

Really?

Can you tell me what other company is offering EV fast charging at lower rates?

and it's absurd coming from the car maker itself who is selling 50k-250k cars.

...why?

Also factor in all the free destination supercharging - most places that are just selling groceries & hotel rooms are willing to give charging away for free in hopes that you just stop by the dang thing. How does that make sense, but yet, Tesla won't even give it's 100k+ orders FUSC anymore. WTF.

You do realize free superchargers give away electricity ten times faster right?

meaning costs for that power would be 10x higher right?

And the equipment, wiring, and maintenance are all a lot higher right?

And the destination places are doing it on their own property so they don't have to pay to lease the space right?


You appear to be missing a lot of basic facts here.

Tesla would have a customer for life if they gave away charging for free. No one could compete.

No one would have to- they'd be bankrupt soon enough.

 

[MARKM3]

What is your peak charge? Don’t you think most supercharging is at peak? I think so.

Really?

Can you tell me what other company is offering EV fast charging at lower rates?




...why?



You do realize free superchargers give away electricity ten times faster right?

meaning costs for that power would be 10x higher right?

And the equipment, wiring, and maintenance are all a lot higher right?

And the destination places are doing it on their own property so they don't have to pay to lease the space right?


You appear to be missing a lot of basic facts here.





No one would have to- they'd be bankrupt soon enough.

Free destination SC cost the same as charging at a SC. At the end of the day, if you need 50kw, you get 50 kw and that is what they are charged. It being slower really bears no difference other than where you're charging.

Definitely wouldn't cost 10x more for power lol. As far as equipment goes, barring no vandalism, a SC's only real maintenance is the AC-DC converter. They are built to go 10 years between inspection unless something goes wrong in the meantime. They are cheap to maintain. Depending on state, the transformer is maintained by power company.

 

[tomas]

Free destination SC cost the same as charging at a SC. At the end of the day, if you need 50kw, you get 50 kw and that is what they are charged. It being slower really bears no difference other than where you're charging.

Definitely wouldn't cost 10x more for power lol. As far as equipment goes, barring no vandalism, a SC's only real maintenance is the AC-DC converter. They are built to go 10 years between inspection unless something goes wrong in the meantime. They are cheap to maintain. Depending on state, the transformer is maintained by power company.

What??? I asked what your peak per kWh charge is... Your daytime rate. Maybe I confused by using the word charge.

That’s the flaw in your assertion. Most supercharging is done in day. If day (peak) TOU rate is $.26, that’s what Tesla should charge you. Plus reasonable overhead.

 

[mattjs33]

Very interesting read here. A number of years ago here I remember saying that eventually Tesla was going to have to start billing people a fair market rate for Supercharger use. I was generally scoffed at.

I don't know how anyone who bought a Tesla, ever, legitimately thought they were going to have a right to free electricity for the rest of time. It's counter to logic and economics.

Someone referenced it a few pages back, so I'll answer: yes, I do think gas prices will stay low. We've figured out how to produce enough of it here that we no longer really need to. We buy it overseas now because our own production made the others have to lower their prices. For some time we produced more than we bought.

In any case, the slowly increasing MPG numbers of the global automotive fleet, particularly in the US, has stripped demand enough that prices have to fall by rule of supply and demand. When even a stupid SUV can get 28mpg, there's going to be an effect.

On the flipside, as EV's gain popularity, the demand for electricity is going to drive prices up. It has to, by rule of supply and demand.

It's my opinion that when the EV vehicle population hits a certain size, a high-mileage gasoline car will present a value proposition over an EV.

 

[mike123abc]

It definitely appears market dependent. In Oklahoma where I supercharge they charge 23 cents per minute for rates over 60 kilowatts.

I usually charge to 50%. For most of the time the rate is right at 120 kilowatts. So, essentially delivering 120 kilowatt hours and hour, or a kilowatt hour every 30 seconds. So, 2 kilowatt hours per minute and each minute costs 23 cents, Tesla is only charging 11.5 cents per kilowatt hour.

I have commercial businesses with large draws and demand charges nearby with bills exceeding $3k per month during the summer. The rate ends up being about 8.5-9 cents per KWH all in (demand, sales tax, etc). Tesla is not marking up the rate very much if you only charge to 50%, essentially more you charge your battery past the 47% drop off point the more expensive electricity gets...

 

[Big Dog]

I have a friend that only uses Shell gas. Says her car runs best on Shell gas and that is all she will use. When we take her car I am annoyed when She demands to drive around, looking for only Shell Gas.

I used to mainly purchase Union76. But then I became educated and learned that gas sold in California has almost no differences as it must meet air quality rules. The only advantages of a 'premium' brand are added detergents, which themselves must be also approved by the CRB. All Top Tier gas is essentially the same. Tell her to do some research (and start saving time and money).

 

[Knightshade]

Free destination SC cost the same as charging at a SC. At the end of the day, if you need 50kw, you get 50 kw and that is what they are charged. It being slower really bears no difference other than where you're charging.

So this is wrong...again....it ignores surge/demand/time of use differences in power rates.

It's also wrong because of basic math.

If both are run all day, the supercharger pulled ten times more electricity than the L2 destination charger did.

You seem to be assuming only 1 guy ever uses a public charger...which is nonsensical.

Instead, let's say from 9 am to 5 pm, a destination charger at a mall might have 10 or more different cars use it.

Combined, they will pull less power in those 8 hours than one car pulls in ONE hour from a supercharger. Which unlikely the mall might see use any time of day or night, and certainly more likely to see use outside regular business hours.


So again you seem to ignore or handwave a lot of reasons your math doesn't add up.

Definitely wouldn't cost 10x more for power lol. As far as equipment goes, barring no vandalism, a SC's only real maintenance is the AC-DC converter. They are built to go 10 years between inspection unless something goes wrong in the meantime. They are cheap to maintain. Depending on state, the transformer is maintained by power company.

But the actual equipment for a supercharger is tens of thousands of dollars more to actually purchase and install than an L2 destination charger.

And you again ignored the fact the hotel doesn't have to pay to use its own parking lot- while Tesla does have to pay for SC space.

 

[MARKM3]

So this is wrong...again....it ignores surge/demand/time of use differences in power rates.

It's also wrong because of basic math.

If both are run all day, the supercharger pulled ten times more electricity than the L2 destination charger did.

You seem to be assuming only 1 guy ever uses a public charger...which is nonsensical.

Instead, let's say from 9 am to 5 pm, a destination charger at a mall might have 10 or more different cars use it.

Combined, they will pull less power in those 8 hours than one car pulls in ONE hour from a supercharger. Which unlikely the mall might see use any time of day or night, and certainly more likely to see use outside regular business hours.


So again you seem to ignore or handwave a lot of reasons your math doesn't add up.





But the actual equipment for a supercharger is tens of thousands of dollars more to actually purchase and install than an L2 destination charger.

And you again ignored the fact the hotel doesn't have to pay to use its own parking lot- while Tesla does have to pay for SC space.

Obviously the equipment is more expensive. If Tesla put destination chargers at their SC sites, wonder which would get used more if destination was free?

You'll be surprised. I understand Peak charge, and charge rates. I also know what peak charges generally are. The fact Tesla is charging 2.3x the electricity rate is bad. Why don't the have off peak hours published, where the rate is cut in half if that was the case? They clearly do not care about mitigating the costs for owners by offering cheaper charging at night and off peak vs days.

They want to charge enough to cover them in the worst possible case, whereas a time of use should be used. I do not want to pay surcharge rates at night at 11pm when I charge.

 

[mattjs33]

Perhaps the point missed here is that the Supercharger is a premium service. The whole point of it as I understand is that it charges at a significantly faster rate than a Level 2 charger, if you can find one.

The Supercharger being there at all, is a service. Being faster than any other charger, is a service.

Usage of it is not going to be priced competitively to what you can buy electricity for. This should be obvious.

Think of it like a scalper's tickets. He's got what you want, when you want it. You gotta pay to play.

 

[Knightshade]

Obviously the equipment is more expensive. If Tesla put destination chargers at their SC sites, wonder which would get used more if destination was free?

The superchargers.

Because their entire point is to charge the car quickly during a road trip.

You'll be surprised. I understand Peak charge, and charge rates.

But apparently not the number of hours in a day- since you totally ignored my point that their costs will be at least 10x higher per hour of use than destination chargers (likely higher because of peak/demand rates)

I also know what peak charges generally are. The fact Tesla is charging 2.3x the electricity rate is bad.

Why?

You've already been given like half a dozen reasons why it makes a lot of sense, you seem to just keep ignoring the ones you don't like and insisting it's "bad" because base electricity is cheaper.

Why don't the have off peak hours published, where the rate is cut in half if that was the case?

YOU just pointed out SC stations are generally not maintained and require little maintenance.

Now you want them posting rates and hours, at each station, and keeping them updated.


Which apart from driving costs up a lot (hiring people to track this across thousands of locations, and update thousands of locations when anything changes) would lead to both confusing customers and causing demand surges at supercharger locations.

They want to charge enough to cover them in the worst possible case

Again you seem to be ignoring all their other costs apart from just the raw electricity

What they want is to cover ALL their costs- including renting the space, the infrastructure/install/equipment, and presumably funding expansion of the network.

Heck even if that wasn't new locations (though it will be) it'd also go toward upgrading the existing V2 superchargers to the V3 ones coming later this year with faster charge rates.

ALL of that costs money.

I do not want to pay surcharge rates at night at 11pm when I charge.

See- another good argument for why Tesla doesn't offer time of date rates- everyone pays the same!

 

[tomas]

Obviously the equipment is more expensive. If Tesla put destination chargers at their SC sites, wonder which would get used more if destination was free?

You'll be surprised. I understand Peak charge, and charge rates. I also know what peak charges generally are. The fact Tesla is charging 2.3x the electricity rate is bad. Why don't the have off peak hours published, where the rate is cut in half if that was the case? They clearly do not care about mitigating the costs for owners by offering cheaper charging at night and off peak vs days.

They want to charge enough to cover them in the worst possible case, whereas a time of use should be used. I do not want to pay surcharge rates at night at 11pm when I charge.

It’s not about you. It’s about the whole market. Superchargers are used mainly during the day when rates are peak. So charging peak rate plus overhead for construction and maintenance is quite fair.

 

[MARKM3]

Obviously the equipment is more expensive. If Tesla put destination chargers at their SC sites, wonder which would get used more if destination was free?

You'll be surprised.

It’s not about you. It’s about the whole market. Superchargers are used mainly during the day when rates are peak. So charging peak rate plus overhead for construction and maintenance is quite fair.

Wait until they raise the national average up to .35-.40c/kw no matter the TOU LOL. Electricity hasn't gone up folks, yet they continue to raise the price to SC.

 

[Knightshade]

Wait until they raise the national average up to .35-.40c/kw no matter the TOU LOL. Electricity hasn't gone up folks, yet they continue to raise the price to SC.

Weird- here's a story on the 2018 price jump
Elon Musk's Tesla has just bumped up its supercharger prices, here is how much your state now charges

It mentions prices going up to 24-26 cents per kw

Here's Teslas supercharger page today reflecting the 2019 price "jump"...which says .28 cents per kw national average.

If 2-4 cents per kw on something you're not even supposed to need 95% of the time kills you maybe a brand new car wasn't a good investment.

Remember- SCs are only really meant for road trips, most people ought not care terribly much, since 95% of their driving will be home charging which remains massively cheaper than gasoline.

I'm currently paying about $2 per 300 miles of range for example with home charging and TOU.

 

[MARKM3]

They raised it last year, then again this year, then they faced major backlash and reduced it slightly. They will raise it again this year or next. Irregardless, hard to sell cars when you tell them it cost you more to do a road trip then an ICE.

 

[Knightshade]

They raised it last year, then again this year, then they faced major backlash and reduced it slightly. They will raise it again this year or next. Irregardless, hard to sell cars when you tell them it cost you more to do a road trip then an ICE.

Not really, given the other 95% of the time it's massively cheaper than an ICE vehicle.

(and even at current pricing the superchargers remain cheaper than the average ICE car too)

 

[tomas]

They raised it last year, then again this year, then they faced major backlash and reduced it slightly. They will raise it again this year or next. Irregardless, hard to sell cars when you tell them it cost you more to do a road trip then an ICE.

The market will tell us whether that is true or not.

 

[UngaBunga1989]

Here's the great thing about pricing...you DON'T have to pay it!!! If you don't like the price change, charge somewhere else. Unless you were fortunate enough to have bought a car with unlimited super-charging, there was always the risk that charging pricing would change.

 

[SageBrush]

Free destination SC cost the same as charging at a SC.

No, no, no
Learn about demand charges, and learn the difference between kW and kWh.

The energy charges are the same but the power charges are very different.
Stop ranting long enough to get a clue.

 

[Xenoilphobe]

Popcorn - check
Soda - check
Re-run of the SuperCharger vs Gas debate on TMC by people who can't do basic math- check

This is better than Jerry Springer! --- ummm maybe not...switching channels