JohnSnowNW
Active Member
An EREV is still a hybrid...it's just specifying the type. EREV is a marketing term used to try and distinguish PHEVs with greater than average AER.
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Tesla Model 3 vs Chevy Bolt
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An EREV is still a hybrid...it's just specifying the type. EREV is a marketing term used to try and distinguish PHEVs with greater than average AER.
No.
An EREV does not require the gasoline engine to be on to have full operational capabilities. In fact, the gasoline engine can be broken and the car will operate within it's advertised parameters.
So other than the Volt and I3 REx, which cars with range extenders can operate at full speed and full power without the ICE running?
Even the Fisker and ELR did not qualify, nor will the CT6 plug-in, the VIA motors, the i8, etc.
The Volt and i3 REx are different than all other cars made today. They are true EV's with range extenders, not requiring ICE operation at all to perform correctly.
Can't we all just get along?
In my world, there's a continuum of vehicles from the pure-ICE (say, a Ford F250), through ICE with electric assist (say, F1 KERS), hybrids (Prius), EVs using an ICE to extend range (Volt), and full EV's. In my world, where a car falls depends on how you use it. If 99% of my daily driving fit within the all-electric range of a Prius, then for all practical purposes the Prius is an electric vehicle for my use. If that's not the case for you, then so be it. Only for the vehicles on the extremes of the continuum (an ICE vehicle with no electric motor, or an EV with no ICE) is there a clear cut answer. Arguing about the narrow distinctions amongst categories in the middle is, to my mind, pointless. You're moving an arbitrary line of "below this battery capacity is a hybrid, above it is a EREV" based on very personal assessments.
If you want a continuum of "greenness" of transportation, it probably goes from private jet to bicycle, with cars occupying a narrow slice in the middle somewhere. The differences in "greenness" between Air Force One and a Ford F150, or a Tesla and a bicycle, are so vast compared with the relatively small difference between the F150 and the Tesla that it seems silly to get too worked up about the fine gradations of ICE->EV.
In my world, there's a continuum of vehicles from the pure-ICE (say, a Ford F250), through ICE with electric assist (say, F1 KERS), hybrids (Prius), EVs using an ICE to extend range (Volt), and full EV's. In my world, where a car falls depends on how you use it. If 99% of my daily driving fit within the all-electric range of a Prius, then for all practical purposes the Prius is an electric vehicle for my use. If that's not the case for you, then so be it. Only for the vehicles on the extremes of the continuum (an ICE vehicle with no electric motor, or an EV with no ICE) is there a clear cut answer. Arguing about the narrow distinctions amongst categories in the middle is, to my mind, pointless. You're moving an arbitrary line of "below this battery capacity is a hybrid, above it is a EREV" based on very personal assessments.
If you want a continuum of "greenness" of transportation, it probably goes from private jet to bicycle, with cars occupying a narrow slice in the middle somewhere. The differences in "greenness" between Air Force One and a Ford F150, or a Tesla and a bicycle, are so vast compared with the relatively small difference between the F150 and the Tesla that it seems silly to get too worked up about the fine gradations of ICE->EV.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
That doesn't actually mean anything. For instance, the Ford Fusion Energi will have full advertised EV operation until the gasoline engine kicks in, yet...it's not described as an EREV:
The Volt won't get the advertised Range on a full charge of 420 miles, without a working ICE engine. Also, ERDTT sort of makes a working engine necessary...unless GM has now allowed people to disable this feature.
And the i3 REX is currently under a class-action lawsuit for not meeting advertised full operational parameters when the ICE engine IS working.
It makes no difference whether the ICE drives the wheels, or is used to put power back into the batteries. It's still burning fuel, which is allowing the vehicle to reach its full advertised operational capabilities/parameters.
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Cars like the Energi have weak electric motors that only allow for modest performance and speed. To get advertised performance the gas engine needs to be running. It will not exceed 65 mph on electricity on level ground. The Volt will hit the 101mph limiter uphill without the gas engine.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
Yeah, but what if their driving style allows them to drive it like an EREV, what if they believe it's an EREV? Doesn't that mean, by your stance on the Volt, that they are, indeed, driving an EREV?
dgpcolorado
high altitude member
The problem with this argument is that the limiting factor for existing and near-future EVs, especially those in the 60kWh range, is not how much current the charge station can deliver but the rate at which the battery can accept it without significant damage. Barring some sort of major battery chemistry change or other breakthrough, the Bolt won't be able to charge at anything like that proposed CCS spec.
Tesla cars already charge faster than the DCFC optioned Bolt will (assuming that one can find a CCS DCFC station). Even if you assume much larger batteries or greatly improved battery chemistry, so that future Bolts can charge more quickly, it seems unlikely that Tesla will be standing still while that happens. To say that the CCS spec is a "pro" for the Bolt makes no sense to me.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
A lot of this "Volt is an EV" discussion should be in a different thread, but GM already gave up on insisting their car was not a hybrid:
"The next-generation 2016 Chevrolet Volt hybrid-electric car combines stunning design and incredible efficiency, offering up to 53 pure electric miles† on a single charge."
2016 Volt: Hybrid Electric Cars | Chevrolet
"The next-generation 2016 Chevrolet Volt hybrid-electric car combines stunning design and incredible efficiency, offering up to 53 pure electric miles† on a single charge."
2016 Volt: Hybrid Electric Cars | Chevrolet
Please opt for leather seating if it comes with cloth standard.Good luck with your future bolt.
Meanwhile I'll be in a Model 3 giving ladies free rides while in autonomous mode so I can have some hands free time. Yup
This is a little too pessimistic. The Energi has an EVNow mode button on the steering wheel and the Mode will be retained across startups. In this mode it has up to 68 kW (91 HP) and will go up to 85 mph (not 65). It has the same 0-60 and 1/4 mile track times as a 4 cylinder Ford Pinto so it has arguably adequate power on the highway. The ICE will not start inadvertently and the driver can push a button to switch back temporarily to blended ICE hybrid mode if more punch is needed.
The Prius Prime is similar in that it also uses up to 68 kW but it about 500 pounds lighter and unlike the Ford Energi it will automatically start the ICE at speeds over 85. Neither car will start the ICE due to acceleration or at speeds under 85 mph. The Prime defaults to this mode at startup but can be switched with a button press to use blended ICE hybrid mode.
The Volt can fully power it's 111 kW motors and never starts the ICE due to acceleration or speed but can be manually switched into blended ICE mode with the press of a mode button.
JeffK
Well-Known Member
tliving
Member
Is there an updated date on when the Bolt will be in customers hands? When will we see the first real customer reviews of it?
I'll guess late November. Supposedly the production lines will be doing retail cars in October.
Logic fail. Doing more of X doesn't make you "a better X". An easy example: talk to some alcoholics.
Generalizing:
"Do you consider a car with an equipped electric motor and an equipped ICE a hybrid?"
Yes.
Even if you unplug the motor. Or the ICE. That just makes it a partially broken or partially disabled hybrid.
Stepping away from the terminology angle...
Some folks (me sometimes) don't want anything to do with having an ICE in the vehicle. No required emissions inspections is an example. Any car that doesn't meet that criteria isn't an "EV" to such folks.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
In California, it's simpler, with no ICE you get a white carpool sticker (unlimited quota until 2019). With an ICE you have to fight over others for the green sticker quota (the i3 REx gets the green sticker also).
You're using the word "accurate" incorrectly. I think you mean "precise".
"That woman is carrying a tiny human hostage, somebody do something!"
"Dude, it's not nice to point at pregnant women and yell random stuff."
Insisting on "EREV" makes me think of the former. It leads to sleep inducing discussions of minutiae on technical differences that make the general populace tune out -- or worse, reject "EVerything" as snake oil.
Accepting hybrids as hybrids and then (optionally) having a more detailed conversation from there is fine.
Except...
"Meanwhile, there are still an unlimited number of "white stickers" available for battery-electric cars, hydrogen fuel-cell cars, and vehicles powered by compressed natural gas (CNG)."
No More California Carpool-Lane Stickers For Plug-In Hybrids
... some (underlined) "fuel" cars still fit in "white sticker" category.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
I knew someone would bring that up. Given the rarity of CNG vehicles (CNG Civic was just discontinued), they did throw that into the white sticker program.
Eligible Vehicles - Single Occupant Carpool Lane Use Stickers
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