Tesla open up the SuC network [in UK]

[Xdama]

its interesting to hear how many people seemed to only buy a tesla because of the superchargers. All things being equal (which it looks like they might soon be) - what were your options at the time, and what are your options now?

For me when I bought last year superchargers were a comfort blanket but the car itself still seemed to be in the sweet spot in terms of range/efficiency/price. Now? Perhaps I'd have a VAG SUV on the shortlist (Q4 or Enyaq), the i4 if it was closer to £50k with the main options, maybe I'm missing some but it while it is a longer list than before, its by no means a long list.

It was certainly one of the primary reasons for me as I travel quite a lot for work, the others being lead times for other possibilities. Just read a I4/M3LR/Polestar review in Auto Express, despite the obvious SC network access, being most efficient Tesla was pushed into 2nd place by the I4 this time. Mainly on build quality & driver appeal, it did also mention that I4 & Polestar give 1yrs access to Ionity preferential rates (I stand corrected by all who mentioned this for VW).
My choices of current possibles would be EV6 or Mustang MachE LR RWD or the I4 M50 as a business leasee. When you look at the costs at the bottom of the article although running costs for the I4 are higher it gets negated by the fact the Tesla M3LR is in group 50 insurance. I still fail to see why it's so high.

BMW i4 vs Polestar 2 vs Tesla Model 3: 2022 group test review | Auto Express

 

[Jason71]

I did a quick search around, trying to get a feel for the differences between the Netherlands and GB. Looking only at fast/ultrafast charge point sites, I think that there are roughly -
34 Tesla Supercharger sites in the Netherlands, and 79 in GB
120 Fastned sites in the Netherlands, and 7 in GB
11 Ionity sites in the Netherlands, and 16 in GB
18 Allego sites in the Netherlands, and none in GB
No Gridserve Forecourts in the Netherlands, and 1 currently in GB

This ignores the much higher numbers of Ecotricity/Gridserve, Newmotion/Shell slower sites in both countries. I don't know the relative numbers of Teslas, but GB is about 5 times the area of the Netherlands, albeit with larger less populated areas, probably.

Although these numbers are pretty rough, they suggest that the density of fast and ultrafast sites is much higher in the Netherlands, with more evolved competition. If Gridserve, Ionity and Fastned can expand rapidly in GB, then there might be some equivalence, but I think that we are quite a long way from that.

that it kind of what I was expecting but was too lazy to do the work myself so thanks for that.
Suggests to me that they are trying this somewhere where they expect it to have the least impact which makes perfect sense that is how I would do it if I had to.
Again not bothering to do the maths but a quick scan of the map I would say that the median number Suc of stalls per site is 12 in the Netherlands and the average is probably near 16. so even your figures probably down play the difference because I recon in the UK is probably nearer 10 per site. They do seem to have a lot more capacity than us. Which is probably why they are the Guinee pig. Of course I don't know how many Teslas there are in the Netherlands or how many visiting ones they get but I think they must have less crowding than we do. which also means more to gain by opening it up.
Can't imagine Tesla would gain much financially from opening up Woodall South its always rammed anyway but they would annoy a lot of Tesla owners. especially if you rocked up and found an ID3 blocking 2 stalls to make the cable reach

 

[Xdama]

that it kind of what I was expecting but was too lazy to do the work myself so thanks for that.
Suggests to me that they are trying this somewhere where they expect it to have the least impact which makes perfect sense that is how I would do it if I had to.
Again not bothering to do the maths but a quick scan of the map I would say that the median number Suc of stalls per site is 12 in the Netherlands and the average is probably near 16. so even your figures probably down play the difference because I recon in the UK is probably nearer 10 per site. They do seem to have a lot more capacity than us. Which is probably why they are the Guinee pig. Of course I don't know how many Teslas there are in the Netherlands or how many visiting ones they get but I think they must have less crowding than we do. which also means more to gain by opening it up.
Can't imagine Tesla would gain much financially from opening up Woodall South its always rammed anyway but they would annoy a lot of Tesla owners. especially if you rocked up and found an ID3 blocking 2 stalls to make the cable reach

Hell of a lot of Model S in Amsterdam, seems every taxi is one for a start lol.

 

[browellm]

I cannot see the UK government legislating against a very successful US companies chargers as public interest under any circumstances especially when the same UK government has abysmally failed to get a reliable charging network set up in the UK.

There are a number of things wrong here:
1) Public interest isn't about "legislating against", it's about equivalence and open access.
2) The success or otherwise, nor the nationality of the parent company has no bearing on 1)
3) The goverment doesn't currently directly legislate or mandate charging locations. The UK's current charger malaise is largely down a heady brew of planning laws, private landowners and DNO infrastructure issues. Only planning laws are indirectly attributable to the government.

And all that aside, the inference that little old Tesla created their empire on their lonesome with no state subsidies to be something of a blind spot in these sorts of conversations.

 

[roadcred]

its interesting to hear how many people seemed to only buy a tesla because of the superchargers. All things being equal (which it looks like they might soon be) - what were your options at the time, and what are your options now?

For me when I bought last year superchargers were a comfort blanket but the car itself still seemed to be in the sweet spot in terms of range/efficiency/price. Now? Perhaps I'd have a VAG SUV on the shortlist (Q4 or Enyaq), the i4 if it was closer to £50k with the main options, maybe I'm missing some but it while it is a longer list than before, its by no means a long list.

My next Tesla will be my fourth. I have only ever bought Tesla because of the sensible range and superchargers because frankly it is not the greatest car on the road, has very limited colours and its obsession with a lack of manual controls has created a not fit for purpose cockpit! The car is not comfortable and is a boy racer with exception of the X and Y. Teslas stubborness in not using HUD or ApplePlay will affect sales once the car is operating on a level playing field. Open up the superchargers and that will open up real car choice. In parallel with this the car market will be flooded with new models from almost every manufacturer and hundreds of existing and new models from China.
As ever BMW/Audi/Mercedes are good alternatives. Volvo and Polestar are already worthy competitors. MG Skoda, Kia and Nissen are good in the mid price ranges.
Musk must be stupid to open up supercharges without legislation to force him to do it!

 

[dakaix]

What is interesting is why 100% in the Netherlands but zero in other countries?
a) Is there lots of charging infrastructure in the Netherlands so not much of a USP anyway there? so why not try to make more money no harm no foul?
b) there are plenty more sites planned so is there some public money up for grabs but only if its a public network?
c) experiment to find out how it affects sales?
d) all of the above or something else?

It's mostly C, but not as regards to vehicle sales. Tesla started this as a beta test in the Netherlands, where it was expanded to eventually also cover a selection of chargers in France & Norway. Then most recently to all chargers in NL.

From Tesla's FAQ's on the trial:

With this pilot, some stations are now accessible to Non-Tesla EV drivers in selected countries via the Tesla app (version 4.2.3 or higher). Tesla drivers can continue to use these stations as they always have, and we will be closely monitoring each site for congestion and listening to customers about their experiences.

....

Will more sites open to Non-Tesla vehicles?
We’re starting with a select number of sites so that we can review the experience, monitor congestion and assess feedback before expanding. Future sites will only be opened to Non-Tesla vehicles if there is available capacity.

 

[Overworked]

that it kind of what I was expecting but was too lazy to do the work myself so thanks for that.
Suggests to me that they are trying this somewhere where they expect it to have the least impact which makes perfect sense that is how I would do it if I had to.
Again not bothering to do the maths but a quick scan of the map I would say that the median number Suc of stalls per site is 12 in the Netherlands and the average is probably near 16. so even your figures probably down play the difference because I recon in the UK is probably nearer 10 per site. They do seem to have a lot more capacity than us. Which is probably why they are the Guinee pig. Of course I don't know how many Teslas there are in the Netherlands or how many visiting ones they get but I think they must have less crowding than we do. which also means more to gain by opening it up.
Can't imagine Tesla would gain much financially from opening up Woodall South its always rammed anyway but they would annoy a lot of Tesla owners. especially if you rocked up and found an ID3 blocking 2 stalls to make the cable reach

It is currently an experiment and the data of who is using and type of vehicle is known to Tesla. Tesla at any stage can reduce or restrict the stalls that could be available to non-Tesla and for any reason.

If, having invited and given all the non-Tesla users a free look and low cost trial at what a working SuC network really looks like for say 6 months then said that because of the problems with vehicles that can't utilise the stalls properly (because their charging ports are in the wrong place) then they would be only allowed to use stalls 9 and 10 for non-Tesla charging at the sites then we would be in an interesting marketing position.

How many of those, having now tried the previously forbidden fruit, and seen just how easy it is for Tesla owners at first hand would want to remain with a second class service provided by their current non-Tesla brand?

 

[ringi]

You can’t buy a subscription for Tesco fuel or BP can you.

In fact it is common for large users of fuel to prepay for fuel they have brought to be stored and issued from a public fuel station rather then have a tank for their own bulk deliveries on their own site. The price they are charged depends on when they committed to use the fuel rather then the pump price on the day.

 

[Xdama]

In fact it is common for large users of fuel to prepay for fuel they have brought to be stored and issued from a public fuel station rather then have a tank for their own bulk deliveries on their own site. The price they are charged depends on when they committed to use the fuel rather then the pump price on the day.

Which is fine but irrelevant as they’re bulk buyers not private individuals in a single car lol. You’re comparing apples & oranges there

 

[rectofossa]

its interesting to hear how many people seemed to only buy a tesla because of the superchargers. All things being equal (which it looks like they might soon be) - what were your options at the time, and what are your options now?

For me when I bought last year superchargers were a comfort blanket but the car itself still seemed to be in the sweet spot in terms of range/efficiency/price. Now? Perhaps I'd have a VAG SUV on the shortlist (Q4 or Enyaq), the i4 if it was closer to £50k with the main options, maybe I'm missing some but it while it is a longer list than before, its by no means a long list.

I've had my M3SR+ for almost a year. Love it. Given the tax benefits the Mrs recently bought a Peugeot e308 - she has fond memories of Peugeot hot hatches. Lovely car, brilliant runaround, v funky.
Then she had to drive to London (~100m). Finding functioning, available chargers on / near M40 was nigh on impossible and incredibly stressful.
The upshot: her Tesla arrives in March. Justification: the extra time she would need to build into trips plus the stress of Charging Anxiety is well worth the extra £10k or so. I don't think either of us fully appreciated the value of the SuC network until we only had the option of the alternative.
So no, I didn't buy my Tesla because of the superchargers - but that was a factor. But Madam definitely did!

 

[Xdama]

I've had my M3SR+ for almost a year. Love it. Given the tax benefits the Mrs recently bought a Peugeot e308 - she has fond memories of Peugeot hot hatches. Lovely car, brilliant runaround, v funky.
Then she had to drive to London (~100m). Finding functioning, available chargers on / near M40 was nigh on impossible and incredibly stressful.
The upshot: her Tesla arrives in March. Justification: the extra time she would need to build into trips plus the stress of Charging Anxiety is well worth the extra £10k or so. I don't think either of us fully appreciated the value of the SuC network until we only had the option of the alternative.
So no, I didn't buy my Tesla because of the superchargers - but that was a factor. But Madam definitely did!

Wouldn’t it pee you off a little if after having spent that £10k extra a few weeks later SuC opens to all though? My wife has the Kona E, loves it and having driven my M3 wouldn’t swap for love nor money. Never had an issue with charging on longer runs though to be fair.

 

[dazzap]

After much consideration, did I order an MY because of SuC? No, not entirely. Did it influence my decision? Yes, definitely. Had there been a functional alternative to the SuC or free access to it, would I have "made do" with a much cheaper ID.4 or even cheaper still an E-Niro.. again quite possibly. Yes I know that's apples vs pears but many Tesla features are great but hardly essential.

Having always wanted a Tesla, looking at the reality of owning a cheaper alternative without SuC I decided it would be too painful and so this largely justified and made it much easier to spend the extra.

There's no right or wrong, but I can see this head vs heart decision could be massively influenced by the SuC availability.

In Europe they seem to years ahead of us and so I wonder if there, the SuC doesnt represent such a big deal because there are many more chargers available. Here Tesla could open up the SuC w/o having a significant impact because it's already factored in.

Anyhow, I hope we dont see it happening here for a good few years

 

[rectofossa]

Wouldn’t it pee you off a little if after having spent that £10k extra a few weeks later SuC opens to all though? My wife has the Kona E, loves it and having driven my M3 wouldn’t swap for love nor money. Never had an issue with charging on longer runs though to be fair.

Yer but no but… I‘m not convinced there will be a free for all re SuC imminently. But one of Madam's observations- and to quote her directly re non SuC - “THESE ****ERS JUST STAY PLUGGED IN FOREVER”.
Even were the SuC network unlocked for all tomorrow (ignoring the practicalities of that!) the rate of charge combined with the threat of overstay fines kinda prices in efficiency? As I say, e208 lovely car that has many redeeming features - and features she prefers over Tesla - but SuC has convinced her to switch. She has likes ad dislikes for both - but this tipped the scale. YMMV, obvs.

 

[qwickshot]

If you look across the Netherlands where it is opened up there are a huge amount of Fastened chargers giving the whole country, absolutely loads of them.

Similar in Norway, the non-Tesla network is very good.

I imagine Tesla have an awful lot of data covering how and when people charge. Which is driving these decisions.

On the other hand the wider U.K. network needs some serious work. Yes there is gridserve, Ionity, Shell, BP and a couple of others but none of them are in good places at the moment. Pockets of good locations but as a whole I’d say they are still very poor with not enough units and old 50kw chargers.

I’d happily charge at non super chargers if they were any good but generally, they are not and where there are good non-super chargers, there also tends to be a bank of super chargers, that’s the issue with opening up here.

I’d even say the super charger network in places is really starting to chug because of all the new deliveries happening right now.

 

[Xdama]

If you look across the Netherlands where it is opened up there are a huge amount of Fastened chargers giving the whole country, absolutely loads of them.

Similar in Norway, the non-Tesla network is very good.

I imagine Tesla have an awful lot of data covering how and when people charge. Which is driving these decisions.

On the other hand the wider U.K. network needs some serious work. Yes there is gridserve, Ionity, Shell, BP and a couple of others but none of them are in good places at the moment. Pockets of good locations but as a whole I’d say they are still very poor with not enough units and old 50kw chargers.

I’d happily charge at non super chargers if they were any good but generally, they are not and where there are good non-super chargers, there also tends to be a bank of super chargers, that’s the issue with opening up here.

I’d even say the super charger network in places is really starting to chug because of all the new deliveries happening right now.

A shop is only as good as the suppliers that supply it. Same is true of any charging network for EV no matter who it may be. The fact is the NG & DNO are creaking at the moment, in a lot of locations they just can not carry the extra load required to charge multiple EV. The government can legislate it's arse off but HV substation/network upgrades take a lot of planning and then the physical work. Another issue is that the introduction of HMRC IR35 tax reform has decimated the mobile workforce ie the contractors who used to travel UK wide doing these infrastructure changes.

 

[Adopado]

A shop is only as good as the suppliers that supply it. Same is true of any charging network for EV no matter who it may be. The fact is the NG & DNO are creaking at the moment, in a lot of locations they just can not carry the extra load required to charge multiple EV. The government can legislate it's arse off but HV substation/network upgrades take a lot of planning and then the physical work. Another issue is that the introduction of HMRC IR35 tax reform has decimated the mobile workforce ie the contractors who used to travel UK wide doing these infrastructure changes.

From what I read the top level grid has oodles of capacity ... it's the bits that hang off it that are the issue ... as you say, it's the sub-stations or lack thereof.

 

[Clem_Fandango]

I think I'm odd. I didn't see the SuC network as a motivator for my mX, I just wanted a fast car that could accomodate a growing family and my bicycles that wasn't a Chelsea tractor. Most of my charging is done from powerwalls or destination charging so I rarely need the SuC network but I like the exclusivity of it if I ever do want to use it.

 

[Xdama]

I think I'm odd. I didn't see the SuC network as a motivator for my mX, I just wanted a fast car that could accomodate a growing family and my bicycles that wasn't a Chelsea tractor. Most of my charging is done from powerwalls or destination charging so I rarely need the SuC network but I like the exclusivity of it if I ever do want to use it.

Nothing wrong with being odd. Eccentricity is a way of UK life, shame it’s being wiped out slowly but surely

 

[dazzap]

A shop is only as good as the suppliers that supply it. Same is true of any charging network for EV no matter who it may be. The fact is the NG & DNO are creaking at the moment, in a lot of locations they just can not carry the extra load required to charge multiple EV. The government can legislate it's arse off but HV substation/network upgrades take a lot of planning and then the physical work. Another issue is that the introduction of HMRC IR35 tax reform has decimated the mobile workforce ie the contractors who used to travel UK wide doing these infrastructure changes.

In europe (at least some parts of it) when you ask for a grid connection you pay the same rate regardless of location. A bit like how BT charge the same for an install regardless of how much cable they use. In the UK we pay (typically) by how much cable they have to lay. For HV its about £1M/km (or was 5 years ago when we were installing wind turbines) but the point is.. putting in a new commercial connection can be hellishly expensive if you're not close to an existing substation.

 

[Durzel]

I think I'm odd. I didn't see the SuC network as a motivator for my mX, I just wanted a fast car that could accomodate a growing family and my bicycles that wasn't a Chelsea tractor. Most of my charging is done from powerwalls or destination charging so I rarely need the SuC network but I like the exclusivity of it if I ever do want to use it.

But it’s not just what your needs are, it’s also the needs of whomever is interested in buying your car when you come to sell it. If they don’t need to buy a Tesla to use the SuC network then they might be tempted away to a used EQC or whatever else is on the market.

I don’t need the SuC network, but someone who might have previously “needed” a Tesla because they needed reliable charging now has other options, and thus I have a smaller and more discerning market to sell the car to.