Tesla opening up the Supercharger network in Australia to other brand EVs.

[TrevRex]

So we have Ford and now GM deciding to get onboard with Tesla to have access to their Supercharger network in probably a shorter timespan than maybe Tesla intended to open up their full network to others certainly has caused a stir in Nth America it would seem.

Tesla jumps as GM deal makes its charging network closer to US standard

Tesla shares closed 4% higher on Friday after General Motors joined Ford in agreeing to use its electric-vehicle charging network, a big win that analysts said could make Tesla Superchargers an industry standard in the United States.

www.reuters.com

I think it will be interesting to see when other EV car manufacturers decide to bite the bullet and join and what effect it has here.

 

[Vostok]

I think it will be interesting to see when other EV car manufacturers decide to bite the bullet and join.

It’s hard to see this being fully resolved one way or the other in the USA. There’s already too many BEVs there and charging stations built with CCS1. A full change to the Tesla Proprietary Connector (it is not a “standard”) is I think unlikely. There might be more dual-cable solutions and Tesla magic dock solutions. But USA will remain bifurcated on this for a very, very long time.

We were very lucky here that CCS2 kind of won by default and Tesla adopted it for Model 3. The rest, as they say, is history, and over time I think we’ll see CHAdeMO plugs die a slow death with few new additions. Already in larger multi-stall sites we are seeing 1 x CHAdeMO and the rest are CCS2.

I little birdy told me that CHAdeMO charges represent fewer than 5% of all DCFC sessions.

 

[TrevRex]

It’s hard to see this being fully resolved one way or the other in the USA. There’s already too many BEVs there and charging stations built with CCS1. A full change to the Tesla Proprietary Connector (it is not a “standard”) is I think unlikely. There might be more dual-cable solutions and Tesla magic dock solutions. But USA will remain bifurcated on this for a very, very long time.

Yea it really could turn into a crap fight. Another solution for older EVs are a special adapter built. But Tesla call it a standard yes?

 

[TrevRex]

We were very lucky here that CCS2 kind of won by default and Tesla adopted it for Model 3. The rest, as they say, is history, and over time I think we’ll see CHAdeMO plugs die a slow death with few new additions. Already in larger multi-stall sites we are seeing 1 x CHAdeMO and the rest are CCS2.

I little birdy told me that CHAdeMO charges represent fewer than 5% of all DCFC sessions.

Yes agree we were lucky to have CCS2 win here. Also agree CHAdeMO should be phased out here as well. It's time IMHO for Nissan and Mitsubishi etc to let it go at least in their exports to other countries.

 

[ausevdriver]

The Ford and GM announcement timing is strange to me.

Why announce it so far out from making the switch? Seems like an Osborne moment. Surely it would hurt sales in the meantime. Why would I want to buy a car now that’s going to have an obsolete plug in 18 months?

I also don’t think it will help worldwide sales. I already get enough comments along the lines of “I’ll get an EV once they standardise the plugs”. People are surprised to hear that it’s mostly a solved problem in Australia. Also a lot of surprise that it’s not Tesla who are the non-standard one here.

 

[TrevRex]

The Ford and GM announcement timing is strange to me.

Why announce it so far out from making the switch? Seems like an Osborne moment. Surely it would hurt sales in the meantime. Why would I want to buy a car now that’s going to have an obsolete plug in 18 months?

I also don’t think it will help worldwide sales. I already get enough comments along the lines of “I’ll get an EV once they standardise the plugs”. People are surprised to hear that it’s mostly a solved problem in Australia. Also a lot of surprise that it’s not Tesla who are the non-standard one here.

I think on Twitter they have have "Rate Your Charge" that may have caused some customer feedback that pushed Ford and GM to instigate this response.

I think these people started "Rate Your Charge" and wow doesn't he get active in pushing all companies to get onboard in this video:

No sign I can see this affects other countries Supercharger networks yet ie prioritises Ford or GM access except NA but will not be surprised if it happens.

 

[paulp]

I also don’t think it will help worldwide sales. I already get enough comments along the lines of “I’ll get an EV once they standardise the plugs”.

Once that problem is solved people just find another popular excuse, like “you’ll need to replace your battery every two years”, or “it will catch fire any second now”. When I got my first tesla near a decade ago 99.5% of the comments were “how will you drive to melbourne” (from Adelaide). Once that was solved it became a question of how will you drive to Perth towing a 5 tonne caravan with a boat on the roof without stopping.
As a real estate agent once said to me, buyers find solutions, time wasters find problems.

 

[Chenkers]

It’s hard to see this being fully resolved one way or the other in the USA. There’s already too many BEVs there and charging stations built with CCS1. A full change to the Tesla Proprietary Connector (it is not a “standard”) is I think unlikely. There might be more dual-cable solutions and Tesla magic dock solutions. But USA will remain bifurcated on this for a very, very long time.

I don't believe you are correct to state that NACS is not a "standard".

While Tesla did originally develop their plug as a proprietary connector, they since went to the effort of creating an open source standard for the NACS connector. You can find the relevant documents linked here: https://www.tesla.com/blog/opening-north-american-charging-standard and more information in the wiki: NACS wiki

While not created by a traditional standards body committee, the NACS is a "standard" that other manufacturers are now open to use and implement. Since the Ford and GM announcements we have seen other charging providers and manufacturers serving North America including Flow, ABB and EVGo saying that they will be including NACS. Given the dominance of Tesla in the US market and the reliability issues with existing CCS1 networks, I expect that market forces will see NACS become the dominant charging standard on the North American continent. The US CCS1 connector isn't as good as the CCS2 we have here (latches break, poor connections, failures etc) and having used the Tesla NACS I can say it's far superior. There may be dual CCS1/NACS installations for a while but NACS is more likely to dominate and become the universal connector over time.

 

[Vostok]

I don't believe you are correct to state that NACS is not a "standard".

The Tesla Proprietary Connector is no more a “standard” than Elon Musk is a “founder“ of Tesla. “Standards” are determined and designated as such by multiparty industry-representative bodies. Unilateral decrees do not make it so, nor does open-sourcing it.

having used the Tesla NACS I can say it's far superior.

The TPC is definitely superior to CCS1, but CCS2 is definitely superior to both CCS1 and the TPC.

 

[moa999]

I believe Tesla has released NACS as more of a plug type that can work with either CCS1 or CHAdeMO communication standards.

The TPC communication is more like CHAdeMO (using CANbus protocols), hence why early Model Ss needed board upgrades to use CCS adapters (that use PLC protocols).

Presumably the Superchargers software can be upgraded to speak either standard.

 

[RichardV]

I believe Tesla has released NACS as more of a plug type that can work with either CCS1 or CHAdeMO communication standards.

The TPC communication is more like CHAdeMO (using CANbus protocols), hence why early Model Ss needed board upgrades to use CCS adapters (that use PLC protocols).

Presumably the Superchargers software can be upgraded to speak either standard.

The Model 3 and Y in the US cannot use the CHAdeMO Tesla adapter, I wonder if that is because they no longer support CAN bus over the charging interface and are CCS protocol only. I also wonder if the new non Tesla NACS cars will in reality just be CCS cars but with a different form factor plug.

 

[Zoltrix77]

The Tesla Proprietary Connector is no more a “standard” than Elon Musk is a “founder“ of Tesla. “Standards” are determined and designated as such by multiparty industry-representative bodies. Unilateral decrees do not make it so, nor does open-sourcing it.



The TPC is definitely superior to CCS1, but CCS2 is definitely superior to both CCS1 and the TPC.

The biggest mistake Tesla made was not designing NACS with 3phase in mind, it could have then become the de facto world standard. I still believe 3phase could have been useful in North America, sure its basically non existant in residential areas, but it would still have made AC charging easier to implement in commercial environments. Type2 is now a standard in North America as highlighted by J3068 (Type 2) SAE J3068 - Wikipedia

I agree, that CCS2 is still superior to NACS. The big deal about how clunky the connector is the fault of cable and plug manufacturers, the CCS2 handles at Tesla Supercharger locations are very easy to handle, and when using the DC-less form, type 2, its close enough the same as NACS.

Anyway, I see the war as basically over, long term its NACS and CCS2 outside of Japan and China.

My biggest interest now is if Ford will do the same access agreement to the Supercharger network outside of North America.

 

[moa999]

Out of Spec had some recent commentary on cables.

One of the comments was that Tesla designs it's cables for lower cycle life, so they are cheaper, but also lighter and more flexible, with the downside that they have to be replaced more often.

 

[paulp]

Out of Spec had some recent commentary on cables.

One of the comments was that Tesla designs it's cables for lower cycle life, so they are cheaper, but also lighter and more flexible, with the downside that they have to be replaced more often.

Given superchargers are by far the most reliable of all I dont really think this is a concern. I also note that the cable on my tesla home charger is a lot thicker and stiffer than the more expensive zappi charger for the other car.

 

[Vostok]

The biggest mistake Tesla made was not designing NACS with 3phase in mind, it could have then become the de facto world standard.

What I would be concerned about in North America is whether the TPC will ever be capable of V2X. It’s not exactly in Tesla’s interests to support V2X since they have Powerwalls to sell and Elon has trash-talked V2X on a number of occasions. So have Ford and GM locked themselves into a roadmap they no longer have input into?

Sure CCS2 doesn’t support V2X yet - but it is planned to in 2025.

 

[cafz]

The Model 3 and Y in the US cannot use the CHAdeMO Tesla adapter, I wonder if that is because they no longer support CAN bus over the charging interface and are CCS protocol only.

The Model 3 and Y with Type 2 sockets use SWCAN to negotiate with the HPWC and UMC, falling back to the J1772 signalling for other Type 2 chargers, so there's still CAN support in there to some extent.

 

[RareEarth]

Article related to this:

CharIN Now Offers Support For Tesla NACS Standardization

 

[TrevRex]

Article related to this:

CharIN Now Offers Support For Tesla NACS Standardization

Actually as an engineer myself I am more inclined to hear the SAE or the Society of Automotive Engineers thoughts on the whole proposal as they had input into the initial CCS process.

This article from someone there at the time is worth a read I think. Explains some of the thoughts and maybe some of the "politics" of why CHAdeMO was not accepted outside of Japan at the time although it now may appear dated to some extent on future events etc.

EV DC Fast Charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, SAE Combo, Tesla Supercharger, etc

greentransportation.info

 

[TrevRex]

What I would be concerned about in North America is whether the TPC will ever be capable of V2X. It’s not exactly in Tesla’s interests to support V2X since they have Powerwalls to sell and Elon has trash-talked V2X on a number of occasions.

If we can believe this article Tesla maybe finally coming onboard BUT Elon is still being a vocal critic.

Tesla confirms bidirectional charging coming by 2025, but Musk says it’s ‘inconvenient’

Tesla EVs will gain bidirectional charging functionality soon, but CEO Elon Musk has labelled it as “extremely inconvenient”

www.whichcar.com.au

Yea "extremely inconvenient" to his Powerwall sales IMO.

 

[TrevRex]

Sure CCS2 doesn’t support V2X yet - but it is planned to in 2025.

Actually I think as ISO 15118-20 has already be released is there any reason why the 2025 date mentioned in your post that I may have missed?

ISO 15118-20, not only a further step towards bidirectional charging - Trialog

The ISO 15118-20 standard, published in April 2022, extends the ISO 15118-2 standard released in 2014. In addition to improving the functionalities covered by ISO 15118-2 (AC and DC charging, Plug and Charge, Smart Charging), ISO 15118-20 expands the range of possibilities and use cases by...

www.trialog.com