Tesla semi is ill conceived...

[jr4488]

I watched the introduction of the Tesla semi yesterday with great disappointment. Elon is getting warped information from the mega-carrier trucking companies ( like J.B. Hunt) and his product manager (from Freightliner). It is worth noting that trucking companies with 20 or fewer trucks comprise over 97% of the 3.5 million semis on the road in the United States.
Trucking Statistics - Truckinfo.net

The 3% of the industry that Elon is listening to is primarily concerned with return-on-equity to shareholders. As part of the quest to reduce the cost-per-mile, these mega carriers put poorly trained drivers in unsafe trucks and push them with Electronic Logging Devices so they can't rest when they are fatigued.

As an example, 16% of the J.B. Hunt semis were put out of service for safety violations after random roadside inspections by the DOT last year. Even worse, 31 J.B. Hunt drivers were killed while behind the wheel of J.B. Hunt trucks in the last 24 months.
SAFER Web - Company Snapshot J B HUNT TRANSPORT INC


It's no wonder truck driving is the most dangerous profession in the United States.
Most Deadly Occupation: Truck Driver

The 97% of the trucking industry of which I am a part is overwhelmingly concerned about safety. Tesla needs to put safety in the front seat and acceleration, range, charge time etc in the back seat. Instead of aiming for a lower cost-per-mile "from day one", how about designing a truck that is safe? As it stands now, the Tesla semi looks like a death trap.

-The large low windshield will allow a deer or cow to breach the cab in a 70 mph collision
-No roll cage
-No fire suppression
-No anti-icing
-No 4-way seatbelt harness
-Center seating allows no way for a driver to climb out of the cab after a rollover
-The hinges on the suicide doors will jam shut in a forward motion side swipe.
-The windshield is not reachable from the drivers seat, leaving no way to wipe it with a rag when it fogs after the defroster fuse blows
-Who told Elon that traction control on the tractor will eliminate jackknifes?
-Drive wheel fairings look like they will get in the way when trying to chain-up in the middle of the night in the wind and sub-zero weather
-No "T" handle for the trailer brakes
-No headache rack


I'm all for saving the environment. But the trucking industry is in desperate need of a safety revolution first. Here're some ideas:

-a button I can push in bad weather that jerks one of the drive tires and reads out on a display how much traction I have available
-an audio announcement I can have in bad weather at night that tells me when I am about to cross a bridge so I can line-up and "float" across the ice
-a powered 5th-wheel with axle weight sensors so I can properly balance the trailer and load the drives without having to use a CAT scale
-I need a display showing air temperature, road temperature and dew point
-I need cruise control that can switch between maintaining a set speed or maintaining a set tension on the tires
-I need a mixer for the trailer brakes that I can set according to the load in the trailer
-I need voice controlled access to road conditions and cams WYDOT Travel Information Service (Laramie)
-Is there any technology that could help detect black ice?
-I'd like an audible warning if the trailer loses tracking with the tractor
-I'd like automatic trailer ejection if the rig is blowing over in a wind gust


I am also concerned about driver fatigue. The Tesla semi suspension is not hinged the front of the cab like other tractors. This means the ride is going to be much rougher since there are only two suspensions (chassis and seat) instead of three (chassis, cab and seat).

The trucking industry needs a safety revolution. Tesla should lead with safety, not electrification. It's what the silent 97% of the market wants.

Drive safe...

jack

 

[SwTslaGrl]

Tesla can sell the Semi in the EU, all safety messages are logged in the ELD and you have to tow the truck to repair for serious safety issues. Perhaps the December deadline for ELD in the U.S. will help the safety concerns..

 

[WannabeOwner]

-a button I can push in bad weather that jerks one of the drive tires and reads out on a display how much traction I have available
-an audio announcement I can have in bad weather at night that tells me when I am about to cross a bridge so I can line-up and "float" across the ice
-a powered 5th-wheel with axle weight sensors so I can properly balance the trailer and load the drives without having to use a CAT scale
-I need a display showing air temperature, road temperature and dew point
-I need cruise control that can switch between maintaining a set speed or maintaining a set tension on the tires
-I need a mixer for the trailer brakes that I can set according to the load in the trailer
-I need voice controlled access to road conditions and cams WYDOT Travel Information Service (Laramie)
-Is there any technology that could help detect black ice?
-I'd like an audible warning if the trailer loses tracking with the tractor
-I'd like automatic trailer ejection if the rig is blowing over in a wind gust

Interesting thoughts, thanks for that.

Some of your WishList requires extra hardware, but one of the nice parts of ownership of MS, for me, has been the extra functionality that has come in over-the-air updates, so even if not considered at the outset some of your Wishlist could come as a freebie update later ...

In 18 months of ownership I've had (of the major enhancements that I can remember):

• Summon
• Self-park
• Activate emergency baking if car two-in-front brakes heavily
• Huge improvements in autopilot (AP1 on my car)

In terms of safety I suggest that AP will make a big difference for truckers. Ultimately it may lead to them being out of a job of course, but in the meantime it will reduce fatigue, whch in turn will improve safety. I did not believe people who said "AP reduces tiredness", you still have to drive of course , until I owned my own AP car; I have a regular journey to watch my daughter in an evening concert. Normally leave concert around 10:30 PM and drive 1h30m to home, all bar last few miles on highway. Before AP I would be fighting tiredness / sleep the last half-dozen miles on the highway, since AP that has not happened, once. I enjoy driving and would not have believed that the micro-adjustments of highway driving were tiring. I have another, daytime, business journey that I make often which is 4 hours or so, 90% mostly highway, and for that too I arrive (and on my return too) much fresher than before AP. So I am hopeful that will be true for truckers too.

 

[electracity]

I am also concerned about driver fatigue. The Tesla semi suspension is not hinged the front of the cab like other tractors. This means the ride is going to be much rougher since there are only two suspensions (chassis and seat) instead of three (chassis, cab and seat).

Most of the world drive cabovers tractor/trailers with this sort of suspension. Is there any evidence that more movement causes more fatigue?

Since Tesla's goal is to eliminate the driver it is not surprising that they did not emphasize driver safety. I agree is jack knife statement was strange. If there is a hinge the truck can jackknife.

 

[dhanson865]

> The large low windshield will allow a deer or cow to breach the cab in a 70 mph collision

But is thermonuclear blast proof. Maybe just maybe a deer wouldn't make it through?

>I need a display showing air temperature, road temperature and dew point

The truck has two displays, I guarantee you one will be able to display temps.

Still even ignoring those two lines there is a lot of good stuff to start this thread. I look forward to seeing how this plays out.

 

[deonb]

Thanks for that Jack, and Welcome to TMC!

 

[electracity]

Thanks for that Jack, and Welcome to TMC!

Yes, we need more actual truckers so we don't have to make up everything.

 

[McRat]

Wasn't I working with Qualcomm about 30 years on their GPS/datastream telemetry system? Back then the dome was 14" in diameter and 9 inches tall.

Not sure that's a new idea.

 

[Farmertom]

Elon has no truck experience whatsoever, he knows that and admits it. His unveiling was the same as when Ford introduced their redesigned Louisville back in 1997, it was a bunch of car salespeople trying to sell a truck, it was a pretty sad day. To be honest I'm not sure if he's really taking it seriously.

Air ride cabs does some to smooth out ride of a truck, actually the stiffness of the frame would have the same effect. The frame and rear suspension causes a bucking sensation if not designed right and that is mostly absorbed by the rear cab suspension. It's possible the Tesla truck is stiff enough and has the rear suspension tuned to prevent this. Also the truck is so heavy and balanced running empty will be smooth also.

 

[Farmertom]

These people are taking this more serious Nikola Corp | Nikola One

 

[Cory151]

Just trying to think like a 21st century corporation here... but why build a self driving truck around a driver (which has rest limitations, a union, pay, bathroom breaks etc)? I thought the overall point is to make these driverless. Just like in the Lockheed F-22 Raptor, the pilot's ability to handle gforce, is the limiting factor, not the airframe.

My guess is Tesla is gonna have a hard time keeping up with sales demand. UPS/FedEx are desperate to electrify they're fleets.

 

[bonnie]

Elon has no truck experience whatsoever, he knows that and admits it. His unveiling was the same as when Ford introduced their redesigned Louisville back in 1997, it was a bunch of car salespeople trying to sell a truck, it was a pretty sad day. To be honest I'm not sure if he's really taking it seriously.

But Elon didn't drive Tesla's semi program. Jerome Guillen did. (Jerome was the guy on stage who introduced the semi at the event Thursday night.) And Jerome has a truckload of experience in this area, culminating in running a successful Daimler semi truck program before joining Tesla. He also had some very experienced people on his team. Not a bunch of newbies without any experience in this field.

 

[deonb]

>
The truck has two displays, I guarantee you one will be able to display temps.

Need additional sensors to display road temps and dew point, not just screens.

While we’re at it, add an option for displaying XM Weather as well.

 

[SageBrush]

This table from ATRI breaks down costs per mile in the trucking industry. VERY interesting, and it points to where the low hanging fruit Tesla hopes to pick is located (in approximate order of importance): Drivers, fuel, maintenance, tyres

 

[WannabeOwner]

This table from ATRI breaks down costs per mile

Interesting, thanks.

Replacing that variable fuel cost with a fixed / more consistent [Electricity] cost is going to make a huge difference. Particularly over here in Europe where the differential between Retail electricity (let alone Elon electricity ...) and Diesel is much more significant - and Diesel prices have been all over the place over the last few years, which has been a headache for haulage companies.

 

[Saghost]

This table from ATRI breaks down costs per mile in the trucking industry. VERY interesting, and it points to where the low hanging fruit Tesla hopes to pick is located (in approximate order of importance): Drivers, fuel, maintenance, tyres

View attachment 261355

Interesting chart.

So the driver is 30-40% of the cost per mile (combined wages and benefits,) the fuel is 25-40%, the truck payments are 10-15%, and maintenance almost 10%.

Tesla's proposing to cut the fuel cost about in half (for the current low end of the chart number - by two-thirds if you use the higher numbers,) and reduce the maintenance by some unknown percentage, while presumably increasing the cost of the truck somewhat.

 

[SageBrush]

Interesting chart.

So the driver is 30-40% of the cost per mile (combined wages and benefits,) the fuel is 25-40%, the truck payments are 10-15%, and maintenance almost 10%.

Tesla's proposing to cut the fuel cost about in half (for the current low end of the chart number - by two-thirds if you use the higher numbers,) and reduce the maintenance by some unknown percentage, while presumably increasing the cost of the truck somewhat.

Elon was circumspect in talking about the AP advantage only in terms of fuel, but you can bet that the mother lode is a convoy with less than one driver per truck, or less than two drivers per truck for 24 hour driving.

 

[Saghost]

Need additional sensors to display road temps and dew point, not just screens.

While we’re at it, add an option for displaying XM Weather as well.

I've never seen a vehicle that included sensors for these, but it seems like a clever idea and I don't think either sensor is terribly big/expensive (cooled mirror Hygrometer for dew point, infrared thermometer under the truck for road temp?)

Tesla being Tesla, it should automatically upload the data from your truck to the mothership - and the mothership should provide conditions ahead back down to all the other Teslas around.

I'm not sure XM Weather is the perfect choice, but having an automated download of current and forecasted conditions in the cars and trucks seems like a wise addition. I've seen a couple websites attempting to provide that to the cars through the browser interface already.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Tesla's proposing to cut the fuel cost about in half

Is it better than that, or have I missed something?

2kWh per mile, and $0.07 per kWh (at Megacharger), making $0.14 a mile for fuel?

 

[tomas]

Jack, thanks for informative post. Actually, I think now could be a very positive time to raise such input. I wish you had titled the thread "Tesla Semi needs many more features to be viable for most truckers...", because I think the idea of having a BEV semi and many of it's announced features are actually very well conceived... just needs more! In any regard, I suspect a lot of your feedback may already be in there or relatively easy to add, for example:

May be already there, but would require physical changes if not:
* The "thermonuclear glass" may already address the animal issue.
* How do you know no roll cage, no fire suppression, no 4 way harness? But great to tell them it is important.

Hopefully just programming:
* Could your "5th wheel" concept be addressed via the multiple independent drive units and good programming?
* Mixer for braking could certainly be programmed.
* Display of available traction I should think could be programmed.
* Display of temps... easy add of sensors.
* Cruise control switch - seems like more programming.
* Audible warnings and voice control - more programming.

Other issues (access to glass, suicide doors, etc.) seem to be changes to basic design that would require other tradeoffs... hopefully design team will consider and find a way to address.

I fear on many of these issues Tesla may be banking on auto-pilot programming rather than more info/tools for driver. Personally I think that would be a mistake, and they should provide both, as professional drivers will want full control - not just cede to auto-pilot.

I do hope you get invited into a focus group for this vehicle because Tesla needs input from people with the experience and willingness to give it.