Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Krugerrand]

Can't agree with you here. Those tolerances on the passenger side were simply not acceptable and should never have left the factory floor, especially this far into production. You don't need to be Sandy Munro to see those flaws. It's not just the person who installed the door, and the tail light, it was also the person/people in QC who let it pass, along with anyone along the way who actually looked at the car.

Sure, missed by others but ultimately it comes down to the person who did it.

That people’s work has to be constantly checked to make sure they’re doing their job is a problem that exists everywhere. Now we need people to check the people checkers work.

There’s mistakes that can happen and that’s what checks and balances should be for. This, though, is someone not giving a fig.

 

[EVMeister]

The problem is because of this, Tesla is started to be positioned as VW of EV. Big volume, inferior quality. Maybe not here, maybe not between you and I, but in China, where they care about this stuff. And sadly, I don't blame them and I don't think it is only going to be China if this problem persist.

I cannot find it now from tweeter, but I remember yesterday Elon tweeted something like "constructive criticism is welcomed." We cannot blindly believe that anything, everything Tesla does is right. That hurts our mission, big time.

It seems the quality of China-made vehicles is superior, though. And those vehicles with fewer cosmetic or perceived quality issues are now going to be dominant in China. I expect quality from the Berlin factory and Austin will be better than Fremont as well. Maybe I'm just overly optimistic here.

 

[JRP3]

I don't recall his exact words, but I'm pretty sure he was referring to a different aspect of integrating the cell into a pack. Looking at an unwound jelly-roll, the extra "flaps" in a tabless cell involves a more complicated step to produce the flaps than the "cap" for a tabbed cell.

Drew specifically says: "Simpler manufacturing with fewer parts" at 46:56 and later "dramatically simplifies winding and coating"
Elon: "When the cell is going through manufacturing it has to keep stopping where all the tabs are" 49:00

 

[2daMoon]

Sure, missed by others but ultimately it comes down to the person who did it.

That people’s work has to be constantly checked to make sure they’re doing their job is a problem that exists everywhere. Now we need people to check the people checkers work.

There’s mistakes that can happen and that’s what checks and balances should be for. This, though, is someone not giving a fig.

Which falls squarely on wisdom that I believe came from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy ...

"People, are a problem."

 

[Krugerrand]

You are apparently thinking it's a good idea to let different laws apply differently to different people. Hey, I like this guy so he can do whatever.

Actually, no I’m not. I’m thinking it’s a great time to take their heads out of their buttocks and streamline their processes, quit wasting time we can’t afford to take, and stop with the overdone fiddle faddle because once upon a time we let a dictator take over so now we must over compensate to the other extreme.

And let’s be clear, there’s more than just the German government that needs to clean up its act. But this is a Tesla forum so the ways in which the government of Romania is messing up is not yet on the table for discussion.

What's interesting though is that Berlin is about as many months ahead of Austin as when it started construction. Doing so without working more than regular 8 hour days and Sundays off it seems. Austin is working 24/7 just to keep up.

Not comparable as a lot of land rework had to be done to Austin before building could begin. And we’ll pretend weather never happened.

I do give kudos for the prefab. That’s a time saver.

 

[hobbes]

I don't think this is a "bad look" for the company. As a shareholder, I want Tesla to use caution before unnecessarily doling out large sums of money they might not be able to get back. It sounds like they are delaying until they have enough clarity on the situation that they feel it's worth the risk of going ahead. That's just wise management of company funds (which are basically owned by us shareholders).

Additionally, it shows who is really in charge of the economic benefit Tesla will bring to the area. Tesla is demonstrating they are not an overly-enthusiastic "patsy" to be taken advantage of by whatever local officials might have the power to dick them around. Look before you leap. I'm sure there is a lot going on that doesn't get reported.

Well it was part of the deal from the beginning. If they agree to the deal, that payment is part of it.

EDIT: Obviously we as shareholders should be interested in Tesla not spending unnecessary money. The not so good look on Tesla I talked about was with regard to the general public that hears about it. General image of a brand plays a role in buying decisions and that is something we are interested in also, right ?

 

[Krugerrand]

This reminds me of the early days of nuclear power: "Electricity too cheap to measure - free for everybody . . ." Perhaps a little bit of environmental (and other) reflections prior to rushing into Chernobyl, Three Miles Island and Fukushima would have benefited a few thousand (million?) people.
Or the 'benefits' of Love Canal could have been considered beforehand, not after it caught on fire.

There’s a distinct difference. Car factories already happened decades ago. We already know the consequences of them. We don’t need a new study. Use information already known and apply it to the area of the new factory location.

We’ve got some bats at this new location. Okay, put up bat houses in place of the trees you need to take down that were homes and replant those trees in another area that’s lacking and can promote wildlife migration to it. And hey, let’s not forget this was a commercial stand of trees, it wasn’t some conservation/state protected land.

Here’s another difference. Tesla is trying to save us from ourselves and past mistakes like ‘clean’ diesel vehicles. And if Tesla was another human ‘we didn’t think this through enough’ mistake, we’d be seeing results of it now. Tesla has been around for a while.

Personally, I’d prefer Germany shut down BMW, VW and the like and stop allowing them to produce ICE vehicles that are polluting the planet and killing people. But no, let’s let them keep on doing that while we drag our feet with permits for Tesla.

 

[Webeevdrivers]

I can't help but think there would still be a benefit to giving the model 3 a tow rating. 2000 pounds covers a lot of tiny camping trailers, boats, jet skis, utility trailers. Really really don't want a model Y but its kinda the only way to go without jumping up to a model X.

Just sayin.

 

[Krugerrand]

I agree completely. We had some physical imperfections with both of our vehicles; which I chose to not even mention to my wife. I no longer see these imperfections and absolutely love both our P3 and LRX.

Sandy mentioned in a recent investor meeting that he sold all of his tesla stock to invest in “a different ev stock”. I hope he doesn’t go the way of electrek in this regard.

it also raises an issue with me of people who feel the need to sell all of their stake in any company. Unless you feel that the business or strategy has fundamentally diverged from your goals or beliefs. IMHO it’s much more sensible to trim the position. This makes it much easier to rebuild that position later whilst enjoying the financial freedoms that come with ‘cashing in’ on some of the gains/profits that have been recognized. As opposed to paying 30+% taxes on the entire position.

Selling all of a particular position creates a significant psychological barrier to re-entry, and appears to present a psychological conflict of objectivity.

Unless he had 10 shares. Then there’s little point to keeping ‘some’.

 

[Singuy]

Cannot agree with this assessment of the situation.

If anyone insists that this is a minor issue, then you need to open up your mind and see from out of the box.

In China, with constant attack from the public and media about supposed inferior build quality. It is somehow a fact now that Tesla is like VW, going mass market but yielding to other car makers, like Nio, on the luxury segment. It is also a implied drawback even for most of the buyers. "Yes, Tesla has built quality, but...."

If you focus on "but", then in China they sold every car they can ever built. but Nio right now position themselves to be like BBA of EV. It does not bold well with a car that is trying to compete with BBA and knock them out. If this trend continue down the road, it could only do more damage.

Like everybody else here, I feel Elon's word command authority and sincerity. Then here is what he said: " We want to achieve production perfection that if the gap is not consistent, then you measurement tool is wrong". This was said like what, 2 years ago?

Mission is critical, but you are marketing your product to the public, where most of the people care less about the mission like everyone here, including me. And to provide this type of product hurt you image, and hurt your mission. In comparison, if Starship has a gap inconsistency that does not affect the functionality, then nobody would care.

Please don't start with Tesla sold every car they made in China. That is simply not relevant. Or shall I say, they could sell more and speed up the mission more if this build quality has been eradicated? Don't agree with me? Thinks they sold every car possible in China? How about they could sell every possible S and X in China? Not being argumentative, just trying to make the point.

To defend the indefensible only makes our mission a cult mission.

I think only shareholders make a huge deal about Nio. Chinese people actually don't know much about NIO as BYD is their actual go to in the EV segment. Also Tesla is part of the BBA club while NIO is not even a player.

Source: My parents who listen to Chinese news

 

[Krugerrand]

Cannot agree with this assessment of the situation.

If anyone insists that this is a minor issue, then you need to open up your mind and see from out of the box.

In China, with constant attack from the public and media about supposed inferior build quality. It is somehow a fact now that Tesla is like VW, going mass market but yielding to other car makers, like Nio, on the luxury segment. It is also a implied drawback even for most of the buyers. "Yes, Tesla has built quality, but...."

If you focus on "but", then in China they sold every car they can ever built. but Nio right now position themselves to be like BBA of EV. It does not bold well with a car that is trying to compete with BBA and knock them out. If this trend continue down the road, it could only do more damage.

Like everybody else here, I feel Elon's word command authority and sincerity. Then here is what he said: " We want to achieve production perfection that if the gap is not consistent, then you measurement tool is wrong". This was said like what, 2 years ago?

Mission is critical, but you are marketing your product to the public, where most of the people care less about the mission like everyone here, including me. And to provide this type of product hurt you image, and hurt your mission. In comparison, if Starship has a gap inconsistency that does not affect the functionality, then nobody would care.

Please don't start with Tesla sold every car they made in China. That is simply not relevant. Or shall I say, they could sell more and speed up the mission more if this build quality has been eradicated? Don't agree with me? Thinks they sold every car possible in China? How about they could sell every possible S and X in China? Not being argumentative, just trying to make the point.

To defend the indefensible only makes our mission a cult mission.

From all accounts, China build quality has been very good. So...

 

[Mstanisz]

Years ago I worked body-in-white quality at a domestic automaker. Optical systems were common back then already.

They used an optical system to measure the subframe as well as door apertures (door opening widths). From the door opening data, they would pierce the door attachment points so that the average door gaps were consistent for that car even if they were slightly different than the next car. So if the aperture was wide, the gaps from door to fender, between doors, and door to rear quarter would be all the same but slightly larger than another car whose aperture was maybe built a little narrower. They would look consistent for each particular car though.

My point is that doors are not manually installed. The locator points for them are usually calculated by the optical stations. I haven’t seen a Tesla stamping and assembly like but there is some obvious gap there in their knowledge/process.

Luckily, this is relatively easy to fix once they hire that quality guy and install optical station.

 

[Krugerrand]

Which falls squarely on wisdom that I believe came from The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy ...

"People, are a problem."

Which is how the fluffer bot came into existence. A mistake because sometimes people are ok.

If only we could make them ok all the time, or half the time, or 1 percent of the time —

 

[hobbes]

It would be interesting to see a comparison between Giga Berlin vs Texas and all of the regulatory rules and red tape that Tesla has had to go through to build a factory. Didn't Elon just say that their needs to be a department in Germany that does nothing but eliminate out-dated regulations? I'm thinking Texas is much more business friendly.

Yeah, environment is much different, I agree.

But the point is that Tesla chose to build GF4 there, knowing the rules.

 

[Krugerrand]

Well it was part of the deal from the beginning. If they agree to the deal, that payment is part of it.

EDIT: Obviously we as shareholders should be interested in Tesla not spending unnecessary money. The not so good look on Tesla I talked about was with regard to the general public that hears about it. General image of a brand plays a role in buying decisions and that is something we are interested in also, right ?

Fair point. Except. Image is so subjective as is how we get to a certain image.

As a TSLA shareholder, I want Tesla to continue counting pennies and spending efficiently regardless of any image that comes of that. In 11 days not having that 100m on the table until Q1 might just be making some happy campers here.

 

[Mike Smith]

 

[Krugerrand]

Yeah, environment is much different, I agree.

But the point is that Tesla chose to build GF4 there, knowing the rules.

Am I the only one who thinks rules are more like guidelines and often meant to be broken because they’re stupid, outdated or should never have existed in the first place? No, I’m not. Some dude named Elon Musk thinks the same. Kind of like that silly rule that you need a Chinese partner to make cars in China.

 

[ByeByeJohnny]

Well, let's disregard the ground work then and actually look at how many days since the first actual construction of the factories started on the sites. Not leveling land or even digging holes but actual construction material being used.

The first poured concrete in Austin was on Sept 25, 2020. Today that is 113 days ago.

The start date in Berlin was June 5. 113 days from then was actually September 26.

Here's a video from Berlin shot on September 25.

No matter how you look at that Berlin was way ahead then compared to where Austin is now.

 

[Brian121]

From all accounts, China build quality has been very good. So...

Yes. The built quality is better in China, that's what I heard. Even that, it is still somewhat an acknowledged fact for MIC 3 and Y that the internal material quality of Tesla does not match the price tag and the quality of that of the luxury peers.

Let me give you an example of how Chinese think differently than American. I recently watched a couple of Tesla MIC Y review Vlog on bilibili. In order to have the seat belt accommodate the raised seat for driver seat in Model Y, the seat belt anchoring leg has a bar like extension cord. And they giggle about it, mostly kind hearted, "American designed car, what can you expect? Solve the problem, functioning, but ugly". For us American, we don't care, nobody ever raised the issue. It's works, and the design saves cost by making Y being able to share parts with the 3, why not. But Chinese care about these type of cosmetic thing. Attached image of the Youtube version of the same video is at the moment they poke fun at the Tesla Model Y driver side seat belt extension cord.

They may not have a panel gap problem for MIC 3, but if this panel gap issue persist, then the impression is reinforced the wrong way.

Also, I am not saying that all of a sudden, Chinese become the standard bearer and we have to please them each step of the way. But this whole thing represents a scenario that because of the ignorance of Tesla, it hurt its own image. And not everybody is as forgiving as us here in this forum. I am just using China as an example to make a point because Tesla is hurting, and it is not wise to ignore this problem.

What rubbed me the wrong way is that NIO, under the pressure of Model Y price cut, all of sudden adopted the strategy to market them as the luxury brand BBA of EV while Tesla uses price cut to achieve mass market share.

A lot of Chinese also watch YouTube too. Wu wa, who is based in Shanghai, gave weekly update on Tesla Shanghai. So they have access to Monroe video. And big media outfit generally report stuff on YouTube too, if it fit their agenda. Even though general population does not have access to Youtube and Monroe video does not involve MIC 3, but they will know this problem and reinforce a wrong image.

 

[kanweg]

There’s a distinct difference. Car factories already happened decades ago. We already know the consequences of them. We don’t need a new study. Use information already known and apply it to the area of the new factory location.

We’ve got some bats at this new location. Okay, put up bat houses in place of the trees you need to take down that were homes and replant those trees in another area that’s lacking and can promote wildlife migration to it. And hey, let’s not forget this was a commercial stand of trees, it wasn’t some conservation/state protected land.

Here’s another difference. Tesla is trying to save us from ourselves and past mistakes like ‘clean’ diesel vehicles. And if Tesla was another human ‘we didn’t think this through enough’ mistake, we’d be seeing results of it now. Tesla has been around for a while.

Personally, I’d prefer Germany shut down BMW, VW and the like and stop allowing them to produce ICE vehicles that are polluting the planet and killing people. But no, let’s let them keep on doing that while we drag our feet with permits for Tesla.

I agree with you about the silliness. In Australia and California fire burned more area than that of a small country. And most certainly in Australia that will have included snakes! Rationally, what is to be done comes closer to what you propose. But then, if you cut me up, you have enough organs to save the lives of several people. So, yet again another example where there is always a whiner that objects.

I have proposed in a letter to the chairman of our parliament that law makers should pass an exam to show that they can see through logical fallacies, that they can think logically etc. before being electable. After all, I do need a drivers license to operate a vehicle and you don’t need a license to control a country? Also, law makers would be punished with less time to speak if they are stating things that are incorrect/lie and don’t retract that when it is shown to be incorrect. I got a letter back but not with the answer I hoped for.

When I was young I read books on Greek and Roman mythology (that sounds like a lot. Just 2 in all). There was a story that the Romans could appoint a dictator for a limited period (3 months). When politics was in a deadlock, they asked a retired general to be the dictator. He was a farmer and they pulled him from behind his plough. He fixed the situation in three days and immediately returned to his plough, not taking advantage of his absolute power. In the past and in situations like this, I would like to be such an enlightened dictator and do the good thing. If you like that, you don’t need to vote for me (I’m the frickin’ dictator!).