Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Fred42]

Makes you wonder when CCP plans to boot Tesla and appropriate the technologies and innovation for their copycat products.

Tesla is too useful to China for this to happen anytime soon. The US government might be a bigger danger to Tesla's China business.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Tesla is too useful to China for this to happen anytime soon.

Do tell?

 

[spacerfc]

What do you mean big money has it in for Tesla? Money is money, they don't care where they make it. What do you mean using Elon as an excuse? Do you mean Berkshire does an annual share holder letter and says also on Tesla, we don't invest in that because of Elon.

I'm not quite following where you are going with this.

Well if money is money why do they care about Elon selling if the fundamentals are good?

Tesla is a disruptive force that could cause big money to lose their investment in other companies, the loss may very well be more than they can gain from investing in Tesla, so it's may be in their interest to stop or at least slow down Tesla.

 

[petit_bateau]

Anyone thinking the Buy America provisions are going unnoticed outside of USA needs to wake up fast. There will be a full-on USA-EU trade war quite soon if there is no change.

Climate Capital. Trade rift between EU and US grows over green industry and jobs
France says it will lose €8bn as businesses are given incentives to ‘Buy American’

Trade rift between EU and US grows over green industry and jobs

France says it will lose €8bn as businesses are given incentives to ‘Buy American’

www.ft.com

 

[MrMoo]

Well if money is money why do they care about Elon selling if the fundamentals are good?

Tesla is a disruptive force that could cause big money to lose their investment in other companies, the loss may very well be more than they can gain from investing in Tesla, so it's may be in their interest to stop or at least slow down Tesla.

Yes but they don’t think it’ll go anywhere and the downside on Elon is too much risk. They have stayed away for ages I don’t think they will change their mind now.

 

[Artful Dodger]

Makes you wonder when CCP plans to boot Tesla and appropriate the technologies and innovation for their copycat products.

Is this kind of trolling still allowed in the Investor's Forum? Just checking on what type of disinformation is allowed, and which is not.

Paging @ggr Please explain.

 

[ElectricIAC]

Is this kind of trolling still allowed in the Investor's Forum? Just checking on what type of disinformation is allowed, and which is not.

Paging @ggr Please explain.

Not trolling but a legitimate question based on the preceding posts.

 

[bkp_duke]

Anyone thinking the Buy America provisions are going unnoticed outside of USA needs to wake up fast. There will be a full-on USA-EU trade war quite soon if there is no change.

Climate Capital. Trade rift between EU and US grows over green industry and jobs
France says it will lose €8bn as businesses are given incentives to ‘Buy American’

Trade rift between EU and US grows over green industry and jobs

France says it will lose €8bn as businesses are given incentives to ‘Buy American’

www.ft.com

Honestly, I'm happy with an EU-USA trade war. Last time I checked (about a year ago), EU tariffs on US goods were far far higher on average than US-based ones. This alone gives the US a significant negotiating advantage.

For example - auto imports are 2.5% vs. 10% in favor of the EU (except for "trucks" which because of an old provision are 22%).

I'm all for free trade, break down the tariffs on both ends and let the most competitive companies win on their own merits. Protectionism be damned.


EDIT - more can be read in detail here:

Biden could reduce inflation, mitigate a recession, and strengthen democracy with a new EU-US trade agreement | Brookings

Sanjay Patnaik and James Kunhardt discuss the potential economic benefits of a new transatlantic free trade agreement.

www.brookings.edu

 

[MrMoo]

Not trolling but a legitimate question based on the preceding posts.

I don't think so. It plays on way too many assumptions. When has China ever booted an entire company that manufactures goods in their country? I can't think of an example. If you are thinking it doesn't matter they'll 100% do it then I can answer your question. They'll do it well after they have declared war on Taiwan.

 

[MC3OZ]

I don't think so. It plays on way too many assumptions. When has China ever booted an entire company that manufactures goods in their country? I can't think of an example. If you are thinking it doesn't matter they'll 100% do it then I can answer your question. They'll do it well after they have declared war on Taiwan.

I also can't see anything substantial that China would gain from booting Tesla.

I can see lots of negatives including the fact that the lastest innovations will take longer to arrive in China, and Chinese car companies may find it harder to achieve overseas sales in some markets.

 

[bkp_duke]

I don't think so. It plays on way too many assumptions. When has China ever booted an entire company that manufactures goods in their country? I can't think of an example. If you are thinking it doesn't matter they'll 100% do it then I can answer your question. They'll do it well after they have declared war on Taiwan.

While they haven't booted a company (that I recall), they are notorious for stealing intellectual property (IP).

I have a family friend, very old, who worked at the VP-level for decades in the textile industry, at one of the major players. He has discussed on several occasions how at trade shows his company would observe the Chinese companies going around taking photographs and detailed notes about the products on display from US and EU-based companies. By the time the next trade show rolled around (quarterly or every 6 months), the Chinese competitors would have on display identical products. This was brought to the attention of the WTO, with strong evidence (the Chinese even copied intentionally-placed "defects" that his company had placed into the patterns of the fabric as a test to see if the Chinese were blatantly copying - and the defects were perfectly copied over), and the WTO slow-rolled the complaints that by the time they were addressed, the US-based textile industries had already been decimated.

So, there is precedent to not trust the Chinese, when it comes to being willing to compete on a fair and even playing field. They have shown clearly that "win at all costs" is what they consider within the rules.

Right now, the Chinese have a lot to gain by learning from Tesla and how they build cars. They aren't going to spoil that golden goose, not for a while. But that doesn't mean they are completely trustworthy either.

 

[MrMoo]

I also can't see anything substantial that China would gain from booting Tesla.

I can see lots of negatives including the fact that the lastest innovations will take longer to arrive in China, and Chinese car companies may find it harder to achieve overseas sales in some markets.

Well that is the thing. They really don't gain much as a country for booting them and they have never really cared too much about protecting their local businesses from competition. I mean they are even going after Ali baba and Tencent and other large chinese companies now.

The only reason they might is if they deem it as a security risk but if it comes to that Elon can just shut down the wireless network of all Tesla cars in China and keep it within the country or outsource the data to a large chinese cloud / data company. Tesla has money, they can work around the Chinese Government.

While they haven't booted a company (that I recall), they are notorious for stealing intellectual property (IP).

I have a family friend, very old, who worked at the VP-level for decades in the textile industry, at one of the major players. He has discussed on several occasions how at trade shows his company would observe the Chinese companies going around taking photographs and detailed notes about the products on display from US and EU-based companies. By the time the next trade show rolled around (quarterly or every 6 months), the Chinese competitors would have on display identical products. This was brought to the attention of the WTO, with strong evidence (the Chinese even copied intentionally-placed "defects" that his company had placed into the patterns of the fabric as a test to see if the Chinese were blatantly copying - and the defects were perfectly copied over), and the WTO slow-rolled the complaints that by the time they were addressed, the US-based textile industries had already been decimated.

So, there is precedent to not trust the Chinese, when it comes to being willing to compete on a fair and even playing field. They have shown clearly that "win at all costs" is what they consider within the rules.

Right now, the Chinese have a lot to gain by learning from Tesla and how they build cars. They aren't going to spoil that golden goose, not for a while. But that doesn't mean they are completely trustworthy either.

Agreed here. 100%. China's false advertising and copyright laws seem to be very weak. I wouldn't put it past competitors to even plant workers in Teslas plant to get full information of the manufacturing of the cars and then just try to copy everything. At the end of the day it's going to be inevitable. Then it's going to be a IOS vs Android situation. China hasn't been able to copy IOS properly. Hopefully they can't figure out how to copy Teslas software either. Plus brand recognition.

 

[bkp_duke]

Agreed here. 100%. China's false advertising and copyright laws seem to be very weak. I wouldn't put it past competitors to even plant workers in Teslas plant to get full information of the manufacturing of the cars and then just try to copy everything. At the end of the day it's going to be inevitable. Then it's going to be a IOS vs Android situation. China hasn't been able to copy IOS properly. Hopefully they can't figure out how to copy Teslas software either. Plus brand recognition.

If memory serves me, XPeng and one of their employees already lost a suit about stealing Tesla code (and this was a US-based employee that jumped ship from Tesla to go back to XPeng). Fortunately this was from the AP1 days, when Tesla was still very reliant upon MobileEye, so the value of that code today is greatly reduced.

EDIT - found it:

Tesla doubles down on claim Chinese EV startup stole its Autopilot source code

Tesla is doubling down on its claim that Xpeng, a Chinese electric vehicle startup, has stolen and is using its...

electrek.co

Tesla settles lawsuit against engineer who it claims stole Autopilot source code for Chinese competitor

Tesla has settled a lawsuit against a former engineer who the company claims stole its Autopilot source code before going...

electrek.co

 

[Featsbeyond50]

Not trolling but a legitimate question based on the preceding posts.

Legitimate concern, in my opinion.

 

[Featsbeyond50]

While they haven't booted a company (that I recall), they are notorious for stealing intellectual property (IP).

I have a family friend, very old, who worked at the VP-level for decades in the textile industry, at one of the major players. He has discussed on several occasions how at trade shows his company would observe the Chinese companies going around taking photographs and detailed notes about the products on display from US and EU-based companies. By the time the next trade show rolled around (quarterly or every 6 months), the Chinese competitors would have on display identical products. This was brought to the attention of the WTO, with strong evidence (the Chinese even copied intentionally-placed "defects" that his company had placed into the patterns of the fabric as a test to see if the Chinese were blatantly copying - and the defects were perfectly copied over), and the WTO slow-rolled the complaints that by the time they were addressed, the US-based textile industries had already been decimated.

So, there is precedent to not trust the Chinese, when it comes to being willing to compete on a fair and even playing field. They have shown clearly that "win at all costs" is what they consider within the rules.

Right now, the Chinese have a lot to gain by learning from Tesla and how they build cars. They aren't going to spoil that golden goose, not for a while. But that doesn't mean they are completely trustworthy either.

CCP taking over Tesla Shanghai is somewhat more predictable than a meteor striking the earth.

 

[aubreymcfato]

Lex's superpower is getting interesting people to have interesting conversations with him. Lex contributes very little. He mostly knows when to shut up. But for some reason people are willing to talk to him. I don't know why.

I was particularly impressed with his multiple interviews of Stephen Wolfram. Anybody who has ever been in a room with Wolfram knows he has an ego as big as a house. It fills whatever space is available. He's condescending, obnoxious, and brilliant. Also totally way out there.

He talked to Lex as though Lex was a human being worthy of having a conversation with him. That was truly amazing to me!

I used to listen to lots of Lex's interviews with computer people and science people. More recently he's been branching out to crypto bros and martial arts people, as well as making his interviews way, way longer than they should be, so I've stopped. I'll make an exception for Karpathy's interview -- two hours in now, and I only fell asleep once!

I don't particularly like Lex or his style, but he's a brilliant guy, and probably the camera doesn't help him (in the past I happened to host a small TV show and you'd be surprised how much television "steals" from a person personality/enthusiasm/personality. I bet in person he's much less boring.
He's humble, he can listen and he actually can follow people in very nerdy paths of conversation. Not a superpower but a real skill. How many podcasters out there can really talk to Karpathy?
Also, he's not afraid to talk for a lot of time, even if the conversation appears to be boring. That is likely something that helps people connect with him (if you haven't, check out is interview with Rick Rubin). Intimate conversation take time and aren't really flashy. It's a different kind of Youtube, distant from the boombastic podcasters or interviewers out there, with dopamine cuts and tight editing.
It's like old school, serious stuff, and smart people like to be taken seriously.

 

[OrthoSurg]

If memory serves me, XPeng and one of their employees already lost a suit about stealing Tesla code (and this was a US-based employee that jumped ship from Tesla to go back to XPeng). Fortunately this was from the AP1 days, when Tesla was still very reliant upon MobileEye, so the value of that code today is greatly reduced.

EDIT - found it:

Tesla doubles down on claim Chinese EV startup stole its Autopilot source code

Tesla is doubling down on its claim that Xpeng, a Chinese electric vehicle startup, has stolen and is using its...

electrek.co

Tesla settles lawsuit against engineer who it claims stole Autopilot source code for Chinese competitor

Tesla has settled a lawsuit against a former engineer who the company claims stole its Autopilot source code before going...

electrek.co

Yes that’s the reason I sold all my XPEV stock when I learned about the copyright infringement and intellectual property steal. However, the rate of improvement and software development of TSLA is so fast that it’s probably one of the hardest company to copy.

 

[Singuy]

While they haven't booted a company (that I recall), they are notorious for stealing intellectual property (IP).

I have a family friend, very old, who worked at the VP-level for decades in the textile industry, at one of the major players. He has discussed on several occasions how at trade shows his company would observe the Chinese companies going around taking photographs and detailed notes about the products on display from US and EU-based companies. By the time the next trade show rolled around (quarterly or every 6 months), the Chinese competitors would have on display identical products. This was brought to the attention of the WTO, with strong evidence (the Chinese even copied intentionally-placed "defects" that his company had placed into the patterns of the fabric as a test to see if the Chinese were blatantly copying - and the defects were perfectly copied over), and the WTO slow-rolled the complaints that by the time they were addressed, the US-based textile industries had already been decimated.

So, there is precedent to not trust the Chinese, when it comes to being willing to compete on a fair and even playing field. They have shown clearly that "win at all costs" is what they consider within the rules.

Right now, the Chinese have a lot to gain by learning from Tesla and how they build cars. They aren't going to spoil that golden goose, not for a while. But that doesn't mean they are completely trustworthy either.

The Chinese doesn't even have to spent time taking pictures, the blue prints are usually given to them willingly by US companies due to their manufacturing prowess as it's the only country with the expertise and manufacturing capabilities to bring a prototype to mass production within half a year. Products will be copied not even from some sneaky competitor but literally printed by the same manufacture who received the blue prints.

With that being said, this is why Tesla follows Apple and build ecosystems which are almost impossible to copy. You can copy the car but it's impossible to copy the software release cadence and the charging infrastructure which are essential to buying a Tesla vs a copy cat. People who pays extra absolutely understand this and will continue to pay extra for the extra services.

 

[Tony73]

Makes you wonder when CCP plans to boot Tesla and appropriate the technologies and innovation for their copycat products.

China is already making world class cars. They don’t yet have a world class car company. That is a branding and marketing issue and you can’t really “appropriate” that.

 

[OrthoSurg]

What are the odds of Shanghai going into another lockdown?

This zero covid policy is insane