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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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If I could "thumbs up" this post 10X I would. Because that is the crux of the problem now. We've all been able to have confidence long term, during the long, low stock price periods because we knew the fundamentals were in line for an enormous valuation as Tesla executed so well, and had confidence in Elon as a leader, engineer, employer, and someone with the best interests of the world and mankind in mind.

Now, with the bizzaro-Elon, that is all in doubt--because of his irrationality and enterprise-destructive behavior. I can't believe he's tweeting Q-Anon and MAGA. Literally can't believe it. Even if Tesla execution continues great, and of course it will flower in other markets where they don't understand the politics so well, there is a large and growing number of potential customers in the US and other markets (Europe) that will simply not want to own a Tesla. It's already happening in the US. If you need proof, just look at this forum. Full of formerly 100% investors and customers admiring of Elon, now gnashing teeth and rending garments. I did well with the stock. I have a MY. It's a great car. is that enough?

We also have not discussed the tragic opportunity cost of all this--the 44 billion, the taking his eye off the Tesla/SpaceX adjacent spaces. What might he have done in e-aviation? short-and medium city-to-city aircraft? All of the other space and transportation-adjacent enterprises sitting on the ground waiting to be picked up, areas that would have been a natural for Tesla. Reports are that he's completely lost interest in the Boring Co., that cities he'd been talking to are waiting in vain for bids, or have been ghosted. Getting regulatory approvals for Nuralink, FSD, and a host of other things just became exponentially more difficult.

So very sad. No, my winged friend, indeed it is not easy to figure out how to move forward.
Stop it. We have not all been able to have confidence long term. I’ve been here 10 years and there’s been exorbitant amounts of lacking confidence over the years. GINORMOUS amounts. Short memory much or do those facts not suit your narrative? No, that’s not it. It’s that you’ve only been here for less than two years.

Nothing is in doubt from where I sit so stroke me off your list.

The crux of the problem is money. It’s always money. It’ll always be money. The very moment people’s portfolios aren’t getting bigger or there’s a sudden drop - sometimes little, sometimes big - some people need to have a reason for it and they’ll grasp at straws if needs be or make things up or believe the lies being pedaled by the market’s puppet masters.

Fyi, I’m taking names this time with the intent to shame the bejeezus out of everyone who’s hopped on the recent Elon bashing bandwagon. I’ve seen this movie many times. When the stock turns around and Tesla continues to grow and record record production, deliveries, revenue and profits, and you’re happy as a clam again, I’ll be here to remind all of you how wrong you were about what the big, bad, awful, horrible CEO did to the company you claim is so important to you.
 
We’ll it’s exactly that, I wouldn’t mind if Elon just took a role of Engineer/Product Development Lead and gave the CEO duties to someone else. I think Elon doesn’t care about some parts of the responsibility of a CEO of a public company.

I honestly think Tesla is on autopilot. That each individual department and leads know exactly what they need to do to execute on the mission for the next 10 years. I would still want Elon involved with Tesla, especially to keep any sitting ceo from trying to stifle innovation and taking risks within the company.

Oh course I’m tired of Elon’s antics. I don’t agree with some of what he says, I do agree with other things he says. Yes I think he should be more considerate of the brand he took a good part of his life building. But I also believe that Tesla the company and the products they have separate themselves from Elon because of a number of reasons. The supercharging network alone is a humongous moat and will be for at least the next couple of years. At the rate that Electrifi America is going, it’ll be a moat for the next 5 years. The IRA impacts will be massive in the US in Q1. FSD and IRA will have massive impacts on Teslas earnings which will lower the ASP to the consumer massively.

Tesla demand isn’t limited or hurt by Elon’s Twitter antics. It’s more hurt simply by the fact that Tesla is approaching the limit of market saturation for the ASP they’re at. Given we’re headed into deflation, COGS will start to plummet for Tesla, ASP will come down massively over the next year both directly from Tesla and from the EV incentives in the US and the world……Teslas margins and earnings will continue to be stable and rise and Tesla will sell everything it makes next year.

Again, when you have a superior product, all you need is to have people experience and they’ll chose the better product over their view of the CEO’s views and politics. This have been shown to be true time and time again
You got a rec from me. Great post. The fact is that the market and the shorts see this divide and they smell blood. I hope you are right in Q4.
 
But the time period shown was the time period in question. That was my point and someone elses point.

If you are looking LONG TERM, then we aren't talking about the same thing. I mean if you look truly LONG TERM it's actually an uptrend not a down trend.

The comments made in social media by Elon regarding this company he eventually purchased have been going on for over a year, correct? Since he initially bought stock, then shortly thereafter made an offer to purchase the company. That is the overall timeline for this event, is it not?

Since purchase, the Woke got broke, the Right picked a fight, and there has been uproar. Things are blown out of proportion, and, in Elon style, he has marched on. Building a phoenix from the ashes.

It is a period of disruption and transition that you are charting and somehow correlating with the stock price of a company that has been hammered by macro and likely behind-the-scene players as well. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that the few people Elon has offended (the far Left and Right) are somehow instrumental in causing a drop in TSLA.

Yet, you are dismissing the fact that the FUD machine has been running for years, grabbing every possible angle to poison the company that is threatening their interests. "Their interests" being those of, let's see, OIL, AUTO, ENERGY, ADVERTISING, and now that we've got all the cards on the table, you somehow think that this is all Elon's fault?

Well, it is. If you want to consider the execution of a grand plan that disrupts every major power player in existence, then
YES, it is ALL ELON's FAULT.

This is precisely why I invested in him and continue to support the good work he is doing.

Now that we are in agreement, what was your point again?
 
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He’s performed tremendous service to humanity. I’m grateful and have long admired what he has done.

However, people change, and he has. He isn’t perfect and his prior good acts do not excuse his current behaviors . It has caused alarm among long time investors and admirers like me.
Or, he has always been this way, it's just nowadays he's more willing to show his true feelings and inclinations in public.

Again I find it weird people find his behavior alarming today but didn't find his behavior alarming when he was tweeting "Funding secured" or "FREE AMERICA NOW" a few years ago.
 
You’d have to normalize it for days of production. Teslas demand needs to grow especially as giga Texas ramps. It would give a rough estimate in that case. But it would also be imperfect as these impacts are certainly uneven across Tesla’s global business. We probably won’t get US deposit data where the impact is likely to be the most significant. Also, while teslas short term demand may be strong enough to soak up production even if demand sustains impairment from Elon, in the longer term that doesn’t necessarily hold true. As production continues to increase, demand needs to be high and the demand destruction could become more relevant. So it won’t put this issue to bed. And the ceo shouldn’t be a source of potential demand destruction to begin with.
So let me get this right. He’s ruining the brand and destroying product demand according to anecdotal evidence being shouted about as fact, but there’s actually no way to determine if it’s true or not because this, that, and etc…

👍
 
Amid all the whining and bitching in this forum today, several folks have pointed out that it is totally unjustified from longterm TSLA investors. The enormous list of incoming positives can be summarized in one sentence:

TSLA is a safe haven in times of inflation or recession, except for gamblers and short-term speculators.

So your neighbors claim they won't buy the safest, most efficient, self-improving car because Elon? Tesla doesn't need morons like them. As repeatedly pointed out here, Tesla's production is a tiny fraction of the auto market, and by the time it gets big enough to sell to morons, Tesla's technology will be so far ahead that Elon's opinions are unlikely to matter, just as they don't matter now to fleet operators, utilities buying Megapacks, and factories in need of Optimus.

Yes, Elon has damaged the brand... like a fly bite damages a charging bull. Show me evidence that the damage is significant enough to stop Tesla's 50% growth per year, especially when Cybertruck and Semi and Model Thrifty ramp up, and FSD makes all competitors obsolete.

The world has never seen a company like this, and its stock is going to the moon, in the longterm.

My bitchy advice is man up (or woman/cat/dog up) and use this forum to post facts and fact-based opinions, like @The Accountant and others kindly do. I've seen quite enough whining and bitching for this year.
 
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What possible long term benefit could he make Twitter provide to TSLA investors?

(Honest question, can anyone think of any?)

I don't want anything from Twitter, I don't even use the dang thing. I'd much rather he focus on Tesla providing some aid, support, and long term benefits for TSLA investors. Yes the company is executing very well but Tesla has become decoupled from TSLA. What can he do about that? 🤔


Bah, I need to go for a long drive in my Model Y, that always cheers me right up!!! :D
 
He’s performed tremendous service to humanity. I’m grateful and have long admired what he has done.

However, people change, and he has. He isn’t perfect and his prior good acts do not excuse his current behaviors . It has caused alarm among long time investors and admirers like me.
Ok, I disagree and am not alarmed.

Out of curiosity what are you going to do about that which you think is alarming? Because really that’s what all *this* is about; a group of people unhappy about someone they don’t control. What’s your solution?
 
The vehicle will do it on it's own merits, just as other Tesla vehicles have. They don't require turning off existing owners to entice new ones. No good product has needed to do that.
I'm an existing owner. I'm not turned off. How many products do you buy where you know who the CEO is and what their opinions are? Elon's views don't change the quality and aspects of Tesla's products. If you choose not to buy the best product for your need / desire because of the CEO's personal views, you're simply depriving yourself of the best product. It's illogical, but most political beliefs are, because humans are manipulated by emotions, not data / facts / science.

I don't agree with everything Elon says, but I agree and support his mission to find and support truth. We live in a world full of lies and liars. What happens if it becomes clear that Elon is correct? Will people change their views? Or will they cling to what they want to believe?

Either way, Teslas are currently the best vehicles on the planet and so I will continue to buy them (when I can) regardless of Elon's views.
 
What possible long term benefit could he make Twitter provide to TSLA investors?

(Honest question, can anyone think of any?)

I don't want anything from Twitter, I don't even use the dang thing. I'd much rather he focus on Tesla providing some aid, support, and long term benefits for TSLA investors. Yes the company is executing very well but Tesla has become decoupled from TSLA. What can he do about that? 🤔


Bah, I need to go for a long drive in my Model Y, that always cheers me right up!!! :D
Speculation: Twitter is being channeled to mobile payment system, like wechat, paypal, and charging?
 
The comments made in social media by Elon regarding this company he eventually purchased have been going on for over a year, correct? Since he initially bought stock, then shortly thereafter made an offer to purchase the company. That is the overall timeline for this event, is it not?

Since purchase, the Woke got broke, the Right picked a fight, and there has been uproar. Things are blown out of proportion, and, in Elon style, he has marched on. Building a phoenix from the ashes.

It is a period of disruption and transition that you are charting and somehow correlating with the stock price of a company that has been hammered by macro and likely behind-the-scene players as well. Somehow you have come to the conclusion that the few people Elon has offended (the far Left and Right) are somehow instrumental in causing a drop in TSLA.

Yet, you are dismissing the fact that the FUD machine has been running for years, grabbing every possible angle to poison the company that is threatening their interests. "Their interests" being those of, let's see, OIL, AUTO, ENERGY, ADVERTISING, and now that we've got all the cards on the table, you somehow think that this is all Elon's fault?

Well, it is. If you want to consider the execution of a grand plan that disrupts every major power player in existence, then YES, it is ALL ELON's FAULT.

This is precisely why I invested in him and continue to support the good work he is doing.

Now that we are in agreement, what was your point again?

No this is incorrect they have not been going on for over a year. Wrong.

There is no phoenix from the ashes. Wrong, but he has been marching on.

Over the 9 months since he talked about buying Twitter here is a 6 month chart

1670987538033.png


If you truly believe the FUD attacks specifically target TSLA then explain the outperformance before he purchased twitter relative to the index? Or do you think OIL, AUTO, ENERGY, ADVERTISING like to first plump up a company before they poison it? I expect you to skip this point because this doesn't fit your narrative.

Finally the worst news for you. You own TSLA Shares, not Elon shares. If he sells TSLA Shares to fund Twitter, and TSLA as a company suffers as a brand you actually are worse off. Unless you only have 10 TSLA shares in which case you will be fine.
 
I have never read T. That is not what most here are saying anyway.
Most of us a saying Q4 production and deliveries will be a new record.

If there is a slight build up of inventory Q4, IMO that is no reason to panic.

Or the other hand we may see a net reduction of inventory in Q4.

If this result doesn't meet your expectations, the problem is your expectations.
 
Pop Quiz!

No cheating. Which line is AMZN and which line is TSLA? With so many very important factors having affected TSLA in particular I'm sure it's very easy to tell the difference on sight.

1670982157214.png


Here’s the same data in scatter plot format instead of a time series line chart. That’s a very strong correlation even with the time element totally removed. Please excuse the bad chart format, as I’m working on my phone.

1670983121818.png


Here’s the scatter plot for daily changes. Even this shows strong coupling.

1670988334354.png


You keep comparing TSLA’s performance to every POS stock out there while expressing how strong the fundamentals are. If TSLA is supposed to just follow AMZN and/or QQQ, what is the purpose of this board may I ask? I have looked at every financial metrics and TSLA beats everything else out there with the exception of maybe ENPH and yet here we are -60% for the year.
I have shown that TSLA’s performance has been tightly correlated to the macros and every POS stock out there because that’s a very relevant empirical fact because it falsifies the hypothesis put out by many investors that TSLA’s movements in the last year have been primarily caused by other factors. You can randomly pick any day in the last six quarters, tell me the S&P 500 price but not the date, and I’ll have a high probability of being able to guess the TSLA price on that date to within 10% error. I could even do about as well just by knowing the AMZN price instead of the S&P, as shown by the graphs above. This is the reality no matter what other theories anyone wants to invent. The numbers don’t lie.

I am not claiming it’s supposed to be this way. This is a statement of what has been, not what ought to have been. In fact, I think it’s been completely irrational market behavior, except for some reasonable adjustment to discounted cash flow analysis to reflect the higher interest rates which have affected the entire market. I believe the PE compression has been so extreme and the upcoming earnings and free cash flow growth will be so extreme that we’re quickly approaching a point where the reality will be undeniable, and a share price anywhere close to $160 will seem absurd to even the most daft and poorly informed investors. I discuss this extensively in blog posts here, here and here.

TSLA has underperformed the macros in the last six weeks, but so has AMZN which is an important covariant with TSLA largely because both are the prime targets for short-term options market manipulation, due to them combining for something like 70% of the entire US options market, if I remember correctly.

Also, I am not claiming that this tight correlation will persist forever. That has not been universally true across Tesla’s overall history as a publicly traded company. If I believed that TSLA would passively track with the macros forever, then the obvious move would be to divest from TSLA and TSLA call options and just go 100% on index funds again like I used to do. The fact is that TSLA’s tremendous outperformance of the S&P 500 since IPO has been overwhelmingly concentrated in just two explosive rallies in which the stock price soared by an order of magnitude. These rallies were in 2013 and late 2019 to mid 2020. Both seem to have been mass awakenings to the company’s potential combined with gamma squeezes and rampant retail investor FOMO, with the first rally happening in apparent response to the early success of the Model S program and hints of profitability, and the latter apparently in response to Tesla’s rapidly improving financials and sustained strong profitability after 17 long years of bankruptcy fears.

This very well could happen again, and I expect that it probably will, and if it does then I don’t want to miss out. The longer the spring keeps winding tighter, the more explosive the eventual release is likely to be. I see a perfect storm brewing with a massive tsunami of positive news coming next year that I anticipate the market not ignoring for long.

I think Q4 results are likely to start precipitating this kind of rally, and if not then the rest of 2023 and 2024 will and my LEAPS are ready and waiting. I could be dead wrong, but I’ve put all of my life savings where my mouth is including quite a lot of leverage in OTM call options between January ‘23 and Jan ‘25. Stocks do not stay decoupled from their fundamentals forever. A stock with a clear and extreme disconnect with the company’s financial reality is not a whining opportunity nor a moping opportunity nor a fear opportunity, but rather is a buying opportunity. Maybe that means reining in spending to withdraw less of the retirement nest egg of have more income to save. Maybe it means reallocating capital from other investments. Maybe it means finding a way to increase income. Maybe it means increasing leverage. Maybe selling a house and going to renting. That’s not investment advice but possible logical tactics to consider for anyone seeing a share price they think is deeply undervalued.

The purpose of posting this stuff is:

1) Attempt to use science and clear presentation of the data to help people, myself included, calm down and see what’s really going on so they don’t make a major mistake or get tricked by evil people spreading fear, lies and deception

2) Demonstrate that the market has been apparently ignoring Tesla’s business performance all year and then some, with market-wide factors dominating the action

3) See if anyone can reasonably critique my projections for the financial fundamentals so as to help find out if I’ve lost my mind with this contrarian investment plan and fix mistakes before I permanently lose more capital and need to make up for lost ground by going back to paid employment

4) Fun and enjoyment
 
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Stop it. We have not all been able to have confidence long term. I’ve been here 10 years and there’s been exorbitant amounts of lacking confidence over the years. GINORMOUS amounts. Short memory much or do those facts not suit your narrative? No, that’s not it. It’s that you’ve only been here for less than two years.

Nothing is in doubt from where I sit so stroke me off your list.

The crux of the problem is money. It’s always money. It’ll always be money. The very moment people’s portfolios aren’t getting bigger or there’s a sudden drop - sometimes little, sometimes big - some people need to have a reason for it and they’ll grasp at straws if needs be or make things up or believe the lies being pedaled by the market’s puppet masters.

Fyi, I’m taking names this time with the intent to shame the bejeezus out of everyone who’s hopped on the recent Elon bashing bandwagon. I’ve seen this movie many times. When the stock turns around and Tesla continues to grow and record record production, deliveries, revenue and profits, and you’re happy as a clam again, I’ll be here to remind all of you how wrong you were about what the big, bad, awful, horrible CEO did to the company you claim is so important to you.

"Stop it."...

"Fyi, I’m taking names this time with the intent to shame the bejeezus out of everyone who’s hopped on the recent Elon bashing bandwagon.....

Great plan. Sounds like Elon's new first principal model.
 
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