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At some point Tesla hits the demand / price curve for 60k EVs. Either b/c buyers don't qualify for a $60k vehicle purchase or decide that the time factor for the gas / maintenance savings don't outweigh the purchase price disparity.

Part of the issue is that Elon has gone on for years saying there is absolutely no demand issues, and has now pivoted to point out that the rise in interest rates and macro economic conditions are affecting demand. To me that says that the company's current pricing for the current vehicle offerings is right on that curve.

With Tesla aiming for continued 50% growth, it will either need new markets and/or new products. I don't see annual 3-4m S/3/X/Y without less expensive variants. Even CT may add 1m annually, but probably not 2-3m given its size. Hopefully the March investor day will cover the new products.
It’s a dynamic demand curve that changes over time. I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding people have had about demand for Teslas and EVs in general for about a decade now.

Microeconomic theory says that the demand curve for a good is a function of:

  1. How much utility the good provides to consumers in the market
  2. How many consumers are aware of the existence of the good
  3. Of those consumers who are aware, how well they understand their own actual preferences and thus the utility the good provides
For Tesla and EVs, as with most new disruptive technologies, awareness and understanding remain low in the market at large while we remain in the early adopter phase. The reality is that most of the population still doesn’t really know about Tesla vehicles or most of the basic facts about them that most of us here have known about for many years. A lot of people literally are unaware that they don’t take gas, or still believe misconceptions spread by rumors and lies of the old guard who want to slow down the transition. Tesla’s lack of paid advertising has contributed to this lack of awareness and understanding.

The fleet itself generates new demand and the existing army of drivers is an education force teaching new converts. Because the rate of education is roughly proportional to the current number of owners, this is an exponential growth dynamic. Knowledge is spreading virally with the majority of the population still being uninfected, so to speak.

Marketing psychology also tells us that merely exposing people to a product repeatedly over time increases a sense of comfort and familiarity with it that increases likelihood of desire and ultimately purchase. This is one of the main reasons companies advertise in the first place: mere repetitive exposure. Teslas fleet performs a similar function simply by existing. The more people see Teslas in their environment, the more comfortable they feel about Teslas on a subconscious level. It goes from novel to normalized.

There’s also the “social proof” effect at play. Most people are uncomfortable taking a chance on something new, especially if they don’t have a lot of time to think about the options. Most prefer to outsource the thinking and risk to the more adventurous type of people who like trying new things. For most of human history, trying new things had a poor risk-to-reward ratio and meanwhile habits were fast and cognitively efficient, so this bias is built right into our brains. Many studies have shown people being more willing to do something, even illogical things, if they merely see other people doing it. They don’t even need to know or care about why other people are doing it. The underlying assumption is that there must be some reason so maybe it’s ok if I do it too. Nowadays, a lot of people are becoming more comfortable with the thought of buying a Tesla after seeing people in their neighborhood or people in their family or social circle getting them and enjoying the experience. This effect too intensifies as the fleet grows, creating a positive feedback loop of growing popular acceptance.

All of this is why we say “The more Teslas Tesla sells, the more Teslas Tesla sells”.

Year after year, skeptics have continually predicted demand growth for EVs and for Teslas tapering off, and they keep being surprised largely because they don’t understand this dynamic. Eventually the exponential growth will saturate the potential market segment and taper off, but I think we’re not anywhere close to that yet. Short term random factors like inflation, recessions, tweets, COVID waves, and gas price fluctuations can add noise to this trend, but the underlying trend is exponential demand growth.
 
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Sorry, missed that. Busy with day stuff.

It matters for some people, mostly they buy Tesla Megapack for the comfort blanket.

Most people/utilities it is not a killer for. And the ones who are leery about China but like the price will do due diligence on the software/hardware and control the resulting security risks. In the energy game the big players are well aware of this issue, and have been doing it (managing hacker risk, most especially nation-state hacker risk) a long time.

Anecdote: back in ?? 2015 ?? an Asian nation wanted to buy a load of 'energy' systems (including storage) from me/us. Item number one on their list was do the systems dial home. A big no-no for them They flew three people half way round the world to confirm our answer. When the US Army bought similar systems from us a short while later they simply trusted our answer. I had done my DD on both buyers, they were not the same buyer. There are a lot of layers on the onion in the energy game.

This is not new.

Huawei still sell mobile phone systems to most of the world's nations. I think (memory) it is only US, UK, Aus that blocked them. Energy stuff is ditto, i.e. manageable and tolerated. I could give you many other anecdotes from my HV-grid days on the same subject, all to the same end, i.e. bottom line it will not stop the rise of China LFP OEMs. Whatever the Silly Valley chatter.
I think you may underestimate the moat that could be in place with use of Chinese firms’ product for what is defined as “critical infrastructure.” I haven’t studied the regulations for utilities deeply, but I know the US federal government is in the process of pushing out cyber security requirements for critical infrastructure providers. I know that the law in place banning Huawei telecommunications products from use in the US is a significant moat for other US based manufacturers. I see a similar parallel unfolding for power infrastructure. It is all about Supply Chain Risk Management. (random white paper if you are intetested to go deeper on the topic https://reciprocity.com/resources/what-is-supply-chain-risk-management/ ).

That said, I take your points as well founded in so far as Tesla not creating enough competitive advantage in this segment to sustain their growth for the long haul. They need to be pushed to do so. Thanks for calling it out.
 
I think we have discussed this PHEV thing a LOT over the years. BTW, we had Volt for couple years waiting for Model 3. Filled the gas tank only once because after a year (?) they want us to burn off the stored gas and fill in new ;)
Indeed we have...

And I'll not belabor this beyond replying to your point.

My assertion is: "Deliberately using a small subset of an items full capability doesn't change the categorization of the item."

Just because you use your iPhone primarily to play Angry Birds doesn't mean it's not a phone.

And for every hybrid owner who drives it like you do, there's one like my buddy... he's a sales manager who often drives 200+ miles a day in his hybrid that gets ~35 miles of electric range... their architecture requires they burn gas and create emissions to make their rated range. The architecture of a BEV makes such emissions impossible.

Suggest we move any further discussion back to the aforementioned BEV Dogma thread... we can resurrect it a decade after it was started ;)
 
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In early January 2023, @fungineer43 again visited the site where the Texas manufacturer will build a lithium refinery and shared the details with Tesmanian. He said that now, the dirt road that runs along the site is covered with gravel. This may mean that it is being prepared for cars to drive on it due to the start of the construction. In addition, an official sign has now been installed near the site, announcing that Tesla is building a lithium refinery at this site. This was the first significant sign that the construction of Tesla's facility, which is said will be processing spodumene concentrate for use in the production of 4680 battery cells, had begun.

Small victories 🕺👯‍♂️💃🎉🎊🪅
 
The real difference is I think about the longevity of the volume demand, and the sustainability of the gross margin. He/she is far more optimistic than I am on both counts. Moi cynical.

By the way, correction please. Tesla have blown it (I think) in domestic storage. They are still a contender in utility, but the prob success for dominant outcome is fading (in my opinion).
I have been waiting since 11/2020 for my Tesla Powerwall for backup power in my mountain house ... i did not even shop around ... primarily because i am an investor in TSLA .. but also because Tesla has the best reputation/brand for battery mgmt ... not even going to bother with some other battery company that won't be around in the future ... and some installer looking to gouge me ....

they did system design and are working on permits in a matter of a couple of days once i sent in my photos of my power setup ... lets see how the rest of this plays out ... so far i am very satisfied with the process...

so i don't agree with "Tesla have blown it (I think) in domestic storage."

1672885322596.png
 
I have been waiting since 11/2020 for my Tesla Powerwall for backup power in my mountain house ... i did not even shop around ... primarily because i am an investor in TSLA .. but also because Tesla has the best reputation/brand for battery mgmt ... not even going to bother with some other battery company that won't be around in the future ... and some installer looking to gouge me ....

they did system design and are working on permits in a matter of a couple of days once i sent in my photos of my power setup ... lets see how the rest of this plays out ... so far i am very satisfied with the process...

so i don't agree with "Tesla have blown it (I think) in domestic storage."

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Me too. I have been on the waiting list for two power walls for well over a year. I ordered before they switched to only selling PWs in conjunction with solar panel or solar roof install.

Patiently waiting for them to take more of my money.
 
(replying to myself here, lol)

I had forgotten to include in my response to @insaneoctane who said:



One of the reasons I suspect Elon may go for a solution (gimmicky or not) to allow the Y to try and qualify is that, a decade ago, the then-existing $7,500 tax credit for EV's was limited to 200K vehicles per manufacturer. The credit phased out the quarter after the 200,000th vehicle was delivered.

Tesla deliberately stockpiled as many cars as they could, delaying deliveries for the quarter where they'd likely hit that, so they could deliver the 200,000th vehicle on the first day of the following quarter, giving a full 3 months for delivering as many extra vehicles as they could.

Given that this was a customer incentive, they went to that trouble and expense to maximize customer benefit. Of course, there's also the side-effect that it probably spurred more orders, but they already were production constrained and had a backlog, so not sure that the orders wouldn't have been there regardless...

Some might call that sort of deliberate delivery staging "gimmicky", but I think it's an indicator that Tesla is willing to try and maneuver things to help their customers (and the mission) to the extent realistically possible...
On that same line of thought, I got my TM3 back on 01 Jun 2018 which was about six months earlier than all of us in Ontario were expecting (based on how shallow the ramp up was going).

The incoming conservative government took over in mid June of 2018 and the very first item to be cut was the $14,000 rebate (not tax credit) on EVs.

Tesla knew this and actually shipped a huge (for the time) number of cars up to Ontario.

The day I took delivery, there were 200 (!) cars delivered that day.

It was a huge help to their Ontario customers to hve the vehicle delivered and still be able to get that $14,000 rebate.
 
On that same line of thought, I got my TM3 back on 01 Jun 2018 which was about six months earlier than all of us in Ontario were expecting (based on how shallow the ramp up was going).

The incoming conservative government took over in mid June of 2018 and the very first item to be cut was the $14,000 rebate (not tax credit) on EVs.

Tesla knew this and actually shipped a huge (for the time) number of cars up to Ontario.

The day I took delivery, there were 200 (!) cars delivered that day.

It was a huge help to their Ontario customers to hve the vehicle delivered and still be able to get that $14,000 rebate.
That's awesome.

In hoping there's some room for action now with the IRA as well...
 
That would be a tough sell - unless Tesla brand trumps SolarEdge and noname Chinese brands. Personally I'd be weary of noname brands because of safety concerns.

Are there comparable systems in the US I can research ?
After trying for years to get a few PowerWalls, I purchased FranklinWH battery system. From my research, and I sell solar. the FranklinWH beats Tesla in every metric except name recognition. So far I am quite pleased with the system. I got an aGate (transfer switch and two xPowers (a PowerWall equivalent) here is a good video
 
Me too. I have been on the waiting list for two power walls for well over a year. I ordered before they switched to only selling PWs in conjunction with solar panel or solar roof install.

Patiently waiting for them to take more of my money.

I'm telling ya, DIY energy storage is getting ridiculously easy to do now. Here's one example of an "all-in-on" system now that even act as a main panel.
It's almost at the same tier as a Nest thermostat in terms of DIY installation.

Solar + energy storage innovation is getting crazy right now it's pretty fun to follow. Tesla power walls are a great offering, but the competition in energy storage is much more fierce with these sort of offerings and the inherent value proposition (price + reliability vs. cars which are much more emotional of an experience via things like superior software user interface).

I think Tesla investors are looking down this barrel for car demand and drawing attention to other areas. Right now the sexy topic is energy storage. Previously it was FSD (until FSD beta came out to customers and we quickly realize how far away robotaxis really are). And IMO that's wrong (at least for now and won't move the share price).

Megapacks will move the needle for utility. But for home energy storage you two two use cases: (1) emergency backup, (2) off-grid. Emergency backup is honestly going to be dominated by competitors who have their cars as backup energy, because a F150 Lightning is basically like 8 Power walls. I'm optimistic Tesla will make that option easily accessible for the Cybertruck but we'll see. For off-grid storage, there's a lot of competition.

I gave an example of that here, and feel free to downvote me all you want but that Sol-Ark system is a monster, which many solar installers offer (and which most normies can even reasonably DIY).

What will move the share price is Tesla lowering the Model 3 to $39k-ish and offering SR Model Y in the short term, and a cheaper car in the medium term. And that's where my eyes are at. Powerwalls are cute, but given the totality of Tesla's business, is not going to drive stock price meaningfully now (or possibly for awhile).
 
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He’s also I trying to scare us with the idea of Elon taking Tesla private at some stupid low stock price, and screwing us out of millions. Is he just another carebear we should ignore?
Fwiw I believe, if it were to happen, tesla would go private the same way *that which shall not be named* did. As I understand anyone who owned shared before it went private is now a stakeholder in the private organization.

Edit: apparently I’m wrong. I could have sworn Elon said something to that effect. Sorry.
 
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Fwiw I believe, if it were to happen, tesla would go private the same way *that which shall not be named* did. As I understand anyone who owned shared before it went private is now a stakeholder in the private organization.
Majority were bought out, only one shareholder other than Elon was listed as transferring over their position. Some of the equity partners may have had contribution in original shares and dollars.
 
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Here's what various analysts are saying in the wake of the P&D report:

Consensus 2023 deliveries are 1.85mm. vs 1.31 in 2022, for an expected 41% YoY growth.

RBC: "Because of a greater focus on margins/profit, we are shifting entirely to earnings-based valuation metrics (avg. of EV/EBITDA and P/E, from avg. EV/Sales and EV/EBITDA). We now use 20x 2025 EBITDA and 30x 2025 P/E to get to our $186 PT [down from $225]." Note that RBC is projecting slightly lower than consensus deliveries for 2023, 2024, and 2025.

RBC: "IRA ... Model 3 Long-range subject to $55k cap but TSLA currently has no pricing on site, but we wouldn't be surprised to see it priced to qualify. However, IRS also appears to be leaning towards a rule that leased vehicles can get $7.5k credit and since these would be considered "commercial" then all TSLA vehicles may qualify if leased."

RBC: "Based primarily on updated deliveries, our 4Q22 revenue estimate goes to ~$23.7bn from ~$24.0bn. Visible Alpha consensus stands at $25.7bn, so a sizable revision should come. We model $250mm of credits. We model auto-gross margins ex-credits at 25.5% vs. Visible Alpha consensus at ~28.5%. Our diluted adjusted EPS decreases to $1.13 from $1.15 vs. consensus of $1.29. Our diluted GAAP EPS estimate is $1.02."

RBC maintains an outperform rating for TSLA. Upside scenario at $350/share, downside at $89/share.

Deutsche Bank: "4Q revenue forecast $23bn and gross margin at 26.3% (ex-credit), representing 50bps decline q/q leading to EPS of $1.00. Note that our 4Q estimates do not account for the expected one-time benefit from the company recognizing the rest of 40%+ in deferred revenue associated with FSD rollout in N. America. We estimate that including this benefit could boost 4Q gross profit by ~ $1bn and EPS by 24-26 cents."

Deutsche Bank: "Beyond the quarter, we expect challenging headlines around demand softening and associated price cuts to continue; recent reports already suggest Tesla may take an extended shutdown in Shanghai later this month around Chinese New Year."

Deutsche Bank: "Looking at the year ahead, we anticipate tailwinds from continued volume growth, diminishing ramp-up cost from Austin and Berlin eventually turning to COGS/vehicle tailwind, IRA benefits, lower raw materials costs, and ~100% FSD revenue recognition in N. America at ~90% gross margin. Main uncertainty comes from the macro environment and associated magnitude of price cuts required, as well as lithium prices. We now
model 9% reduction in global ASP as initial IRS guidance raises the risk the IRA consumer incentive of $7,500 may not benefit all variants of Model Y in the U.S., and we are tweaking down our 2023 deliveries estimate to 1.84m units (still +40% YoY), and revenue to $100.7bn." They are targeting 2023 EPS of $4.70,

Deutsche Bank: "All in, we lower our price target to $250 (from $270) based on the average of 40x our 2025 EPS and EV/sales multiple of 10x 2023 (both discounted back), reflecting slightly lower volume and reduced but still strong gross margin expectations. We continue to view Tesla as an EV leader in the autos sector thanks to its superior cost structure and agility in the midst of challenging macro conditions. In the near term, it is establishing more cost-efficient capacity to support meaningful growth. In midterm, the company is looking to launch its next-gen platform which should support multiple other vehicles and segments, and targeting $20k COGS/vehicle. Reiterate Buy."

Deutsche Bank: "Tesla is likely facing a mix of accelerated weak macro and some level of growing competition in China with compelling EVs that offer newer features. Relative to the U.S. and Europe, China is seeing more new credible products coming to market and ramping up in capacity. This year, competition has moved upward to the RMB 100-200k price segment (BYD, GAC Aion, Hozon Neta), away from low end mini car category (e.g., Wuling Hongguan, Great Wall ORA). In response to this, reports suggest Tesla is developing a revamped version of the Model 3 to reboot the appeal of the 5-year old electric sedan and lower costs meaningfully further. The redesigned model will move into production in third quarter of 2023 in Shanghai. Amid the accelerated weak macro and a more competitive EV market, pricing naturally becomes Tesla’s lever to pull, especially after several price hikes earlier last year."

Deutsche Bank: "We expect IRA to constitute a meaningful tailwind for the company, starting January 1. The battery manufacturing piece should amount to $45/kWh for the battery cells and packs made in-house (10 GWh capacity from pilot line in Fremont, and ramping up Austin capacity as fast as possible), and a piece of it to be shared with Panasonic for the batteries made by the JV in Nevada. The company has indicated in the Q3 earnings call that Austin’s battery output should be around 1,000 vehicle sets per week by the end of this year. We had previously estimated ... under the IRA, amounting to a ~$1,800/unit overall COGS reduction on a volume-weighted basis in the U.S, or ~$800/vehicle when averaged over global volumes."

Deutsche Bank: "Tesla indicated that it is extremely focused on its next-generation vehicle platform, which in our view should support several different top hats across multiple vehicle segments, as well as robotaxi. Development is well advanced, and SOP is targeted to be in 2024. The goal is for this platform to have a COGS of about $20k per vehicle (half of Tesla’s current one), and for Tesla manufacturing output of the vehicle to be twice as high as currently on similar footprint, with half the capex spent. Recall that the company had seemingly de-emphasized the development of the more affordable “Model 2” earlier on last year, to focus primarily on growing volumes of existing models at its current and new factories, and roll out its FSD software. This platform development would represent the re-acceleration of this effort for SoP in 2024, though the exact vehicle types are yet to be unveiled. We think this will be an important topic investors will look to understand better, given implications for volume trajectory in the years beyond 2023."

JP Morgan: 4Q EPS estimate at $1.16. "Our base case assumption is that y/y growth (while remaining impressive overall) is likely to decline each year from here on out (we forecast +26% growth in 2023, +24% in 2024, and +20% in 2025)."

JP Morgan: "...with significant capacity coming online in full year 2023 vs. 2022 (annual run-rate installed capacity as per the 3Q22 shareholder letter of >1.9 mn as Austin and Berlin ramp vs. 2022 deliveries of 1.3 mn), supply is unlikely to be the limiting factor for Tesla deliveries in 2023 that it has been in prior years, such that a material deliveries miss vs. expectation could be particularly injurious to long-term investor expectations. We are not materially lowering our estimates today (2023 goes to $4.60 from $4.84, 2024 to $5.15 from $5.35, and 2025 to $5.55 from $5.65) although we are reducing our December 2023 price target to $125 from $150 on expected multiple compression as growth expectations moderate."

JP Morgan has a underweight rating for TSLA. "Although both technology and execution risk seem substantially less than was once feared, expansion into higher volume segments with lower price points seems fraught with greater risk relative to demand, execution, and competition. Meanwhile, valuation appears to be pricing in upside related to expansion into mass-market segments well beyond our volume forecasts for the Model 3 and Model Y."

Citigroup: "Although the soft Q4 outcome isn’t entirely shocking given recent China COVID developments, the delivery miss (vs. reduced estimates & post recent price actions) will likely escalate concerns over NT macro/competitive demand pressures at a time when Tesla is adding significant capacity on existing products. At ~30x consensus ’22 EPS and with sentiment already quite negative, an argument can be made that much of the bad news is already priced in. But until gross margin visibility improves (Q4 results on Jan 25th), the stock might struggle to regain meaningful ground, and it doesn’t help that U.S. IRA guidelines appear to limit the $80k price cap to just the three-row Model Y variants."

Citigroup maintains a $176 price target.

I can't believe people waste their time reading all that analyst gobbledygook. It's utterly useless to an investor and is often purposefully misleading. Why do you think they give away their misguided speculations for free anyway?

People on this board have a better understanding of the various fundamentals involved than most of them, and the analysts who might actually be good can't give you the straight scoop in a timely manner anyway because they have to tow the company line. Smart investors ignore them so they can focus on things that actually matter. They didn't call the breakout in 2019 in advance, and they won't call the next one out either. But some people still consider every word they say carefully as if they never learn. There's a reason Elon treats them like little parasites and won't give them the time of day.

But they sound so sophisticated and knowledgeable! 🤪 /s
 
Please .... my experience in the energy sector did not stop in 2015. I sold my/our subsequent company (in global HV grid) only last year, 2022. My thirty years of experience have not disappeared, and I've not been idle since then either. Every grid company worth their salt is studying storage very closely indeed.


You could start with posing yourself the question of why buy a 10kWh domestic storage unit from Tesla at GBP 10k when you can buy basically the same thing from SolarEdge for GBP 6k, or from a Chinese clone for less.

How about I pose the question of Why you are talking about 10kWh for Tesla Powerwall when it hasn't been 10 kWh in years? Heck in 2016 it was 14 kWh. So the 10 kWh you are referring to must have been from 2015?

I have no idea what it costs in GBP but I do know it is 13.5 kWh now as seen below.

Did you also know that a powerwall after federal tax credit can be only $4900 to the consumer in the US?

* 12 kW solar no PW $16,882
* 12 kW solar 1 PW $24,932 ($8050 above prior option)
* 12 KW solar 2 PW $29,832 ($4900 above prior option)
* 12 kW solar 3 PW $34,732 ($4900 above prior option)

and so on up to 10 powerwalls, every one past the first is only $4900 (after credit). If you don't need 12 kW you can shrink the PV down to 4.8 kW and the powerwall price doesn't change.

1672890609178.png
 
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Tesla stopped selling the rear wheel Model Y due to demand being too high in general. Tesla stopped selling Model 3 standard range due to demand being too high in general.

Just me that's curious to why there is a demand question even before these models are reintroduced 🤔
Mods - do all the "demand" posts put the "demand" problem to bed? I am keen to move the discussion elsewhere and frame it as a margin/IRA discussion.
Will be interesting to see if the remainder of the Hertz 100k order was pushed into 2023 to get them the Commercial Clean Vehicle Credit of $7,500 per car.
Great point - is it possible (or even likely) that Tesla are sitting on Avis etc. orders also?
Time to stop this never ending back and forth about the IRA and Tesla's website. The standpoints are clear now. Tesla must have their reasons for not changing the website yet (and we may or may not find out what they are).
Thread for IRA discussion:
EV and Battery Credits
As the share price continues bobbing in the toilet, and the media and analysts and burned gamblers continue blathering on and on about dire threats from competition and 5% Fed rates and Elon's terrible tweets, it might cheer up gloomy investors to remember how much we don't know about Tesla's continuing work behind closed doors.

If history is any guide, we are gonna be pleasantly surprised.
  • Nobody expected Model S (which won damn-near every award for excellence).
  • Nobody expected falcon doors on Model X (which required firing the original supplier).
  • Nobody expected innovations like octovalve and giant castings and carbon-fiber wrapped motors (which all shocked industry veteran Sandy Munro).
  • Nobody expected integrated vehicle software and wireless updates (which competitors still can't fully match).
  • Nobody expected Cybertruck (which now has a backlog of millions).
  • Nobody expected a 500-mile BEV Semi (which some folks still can't believe).
  • Nobody expected solar cells embedded in glass roof tiles (which survived recent hurricanes).
  • Nobody expected in-house designed supercomputers (with greater capability than most in the world).
  • Nobody expected Optimus (which went from dancing joke to working prototypes in a few months).
  • Nobody expected Tesla Insurance (which is preparing for the domination of Tesla robotaxis).
  • Nobody expected the achievements of Elon's other teams, such as reusable rockets and satellite internet and dirt-cheap tunnels and brain-computer interfaces.
As I may have opined before, the world has never seen a company like this, with this combination of creativity, ambition, and mission-driven determination. We really have no idea what they are capable of.

Elon has said life can't be only about solving one gloomy problem after another. We need something to look forward to. I am very much looking forward to March 1, when Tesla will give us a peek inside their doors.

Thread for March 1st:
Tesla Investor Day Discussion
I really cannot get my head around the idea that there are demand concerns. I've owned my new model Y performance (RHD) forabout 6 weeks now. I had to wait a YEAR to get this car. You still cannot just decide to buy a tesla here and get one the same day, not even close. And thats with just TWO available cars (S/X not here yet), and a choice of 5 colors in total, and 2 interiors, and zero advertising.
I would KILL to have a business that could so effortlessly shift £70,000 cars with a £30k profit and zero adveritising or marketing.

Anyone who thinks Tesla has a demand problem is just wrong. Its not a matter of emphasis, or a matter of being conservative or cautious, its just WRONG.
I'll believe they have a deman problem te day I'm sick of seeing TV ads and billboards everywhere trying to get new orders.

Ignore this idiocy.
Demand #2
To be fair, the big unknown for 2023 is how margins will fare. Not worried about demand, per se, because of Tesla's pricing power.

I actually look forward to margins getting squeezed if global economic conditions continue to deteriorate. I'm not predicting that, I pay very little attention to trying to forecast it since it's more important to position yourself to weather potential economic headwinds than it is to bail because you think the economy might get worse. But, should it happen, it will impact Tesla's competitors even more.

This is what many investors still don't get - they think that since EV's are "so expensive" they will take the brunt of the hit from any economic softness. The opposite will actually be true, at least for any EV manufacturer who has pricing power like Tesla does, because they will be able to sacrifice margins for sales while other manufacturers will sacrifice both margins and sales. That's a deadly combination depending upon how long it continues. And I know of no other EV manufacturer who has pricing power anywhere near Tesla's.

The IRA will probably help Tesla's margins from dropping too far, and the subsidies will function as a form of life support for legacy manufacturers in the US. This might simply delay what would have been inevitable, but perhaps not for long enough to prevent it. I really dislike the IRA because it looks to me like it will turn domestic auto into hybrid manufacturers (of a scale not envisioned before IRA). Some will say that's better than the status quo but I disagree, it would be better for them to go bankrupt so real renewal can begin sooner.

It remains to be seen how the economy will fare in 2023 and how the IRA will affect Tesla. I can see a range of possibilities with the most bullish ones looking pretty absurd and the most bearish ones looking more like a "time-out" than a catastrophe.
Demand #3
It’s a dynamic demand curve that changes over time. I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding people have had about demand for Teslas and EVs in general for about a decade now.

Microeconomic theory says that the demand curve for a good is a function of:

  1. How much utility the good provides to consumers in the market
  2. How many consumers are aware of the existence of the good
  3. Of those consumers who are aware, how well they understand their own actual preferences and thus the utility the good provides
For Tesla and EVs, as with most new disruptive technologies, awareness and understanding remain low in the market at large while we remain in the early adopter phase. The reality is that most of the population still doesn’t really know about Tesla vehicles or most of the basic facts about them that most of us here have known about for many years. A lot of people literally are unaware that they don’t take gas, or still believe misconceptions spread by rumors and lies of the old guard who want to slow down the transition. Tesla’s lack of paid advertising has contributed to this lack of awareness and understanding.

The fleet itself generates new demand and the existing army of drivers is an education force teaching new converts. Because the rate of education is roughly proportional to the current number of owners, this is an exponential growth dynamic. Knowledge is spreading virally with the majority of the population still being uninfected, so to speak.

Marketing psychology also tells us that merely exposing people to a product repeatedly over time increases a sense of comfort and familiarity with it that increases likelihood of desire and ultimately purchase. This is one of the main reasons companies advertise in the first place: mere repetitive exposure. Teslas fleet performs a similar function simply by existing. The more people see Teslas in their environment, the more comfortable they feel about Teslas on a subconscious level. It goes from novel to normalized.

There’s also the “social proof” effect at play. Most people are uncomfortable taking a chance on something new, especially if they don’t have a lot of time to think about the options. Most prefer to outsource the thinking and risk to the more adventurous type of people who like trying new things. For most of human history, trying new things had a poor risk-to-reward ratio and meanwhile habits were fast and cognitively efficient, so this bias is built right into our brains. Many studies have shown people being more willing to do something, even illogical things, if they merely see other people doing it. They don’t even need to know or care about why other people are doing it. The underlying assumption is that there must be some reason so maybe it’s ok if I do it too. Nowadays, a lot of people are becoming more comfortable with the thought of buying a Tesla after seeing people in their neighborhood or people in their family or social circle getting them and enjoying the experience. This effect too intensifies as the fleet grows, creating a positive feedback loop of growing popular acceptance.

All of this is why we say “The more Teslas Tesla sells, the more Teslas Tesla sells”.

Year after year, skeptics have continually predicted demand growth for EVs and for Teslas tapering off, and they keep being surprised largely because they don’t understand this dynamic. Eventually the exponential growth will saturate the potential market segment and taper off, but I think we’re not anywhere close to that yet. Short term random factors like inflation, recessions, tweets, COVID waves, and gas price fluctuations can add noise to this trend, but the underlying trend is exponential demand growth.
Demand #4
 
I can't believe people waste their time reading all that analyst gobbledygook. It's utterly useless to an investor and is often purposefully misleading. Why do you think they give away their misguided speculations for free anyway?

People on this board have a better understanding of the various fundamentals involved than most of them, and the analysts who might actually be good can't give you the straight scoop in a timely manner anyway because they have to tow the company line. Smart investors ignore them so they can focus on things that actually matter. They didn't call the breakout in 2019 in advance, and they won't call the next one out either. But some people still consider every word they say carefully as if they never learn. There's a reason Elon treats them like little parasites and won't give them the time of day.

But they sound so sophisticated and knowledgeable! 🤪 /s
Absent retail FOMO (and that has evaporated across the board), all we are left with is equity funds and they do listen to analysts, at least partially. So it is good to hear what they say. At the very least, a cautious investor wouldn’t buy options outside analyst price targets.

I‘m not saying you should take their word as gospel (you’ll note that the quoted analysts don’t agree with each other), obviously their base cases don’t take into account a bunch of expected tailwinds (as the quoted analysts state above). But it is nonetheless data, use some or none of it as you please.