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I think this quarterly earnings report presents a buying opportunity. ASP has come down by $5k since last quarter and I doubt global COGS has come down by nearly that much. The IRA credits apply only to the units sold in the US, I believe.
I would caution underestimating just how much hitting volume production impacts gross margin during a factory ramp. Remember how Model 3's and even Model Y's gross margin improved dramatically in a short period of time when Tesla hit the 4,000-5,000/week threshold. Also a very key thing to point out is that gross margins improved while ASP DECLINED for both the 3 and the Y ramps. As Tesla hit the 4,000-5,000/week numbers, they lowered prices and/or introduced lower trim variants. If you remember correctly, during 2021, this dynamic was continually on display. So much that Tesla bears were dumbfounded and just resorted to Tesla was cooking the books.

Remember not just the factor of hitting a certain gross margin number when at say 5k/week, there's also the dynamic of how much the under 5k/week was hurting gross margins in previous quarters
 
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Yup. Constantly getting out of the wife’s Kona and forgetting to turn it off. And walking away without locking it.
I do that with ALL non-Teslas! I recently left a rental accidentally running the entire time while I ate lunch in a restaurant....oops. Why are all other cars so dumb?!?
 
Go ask Nvidia how much of a PE ratio the market will tolerate regardless of earnings.

The next major bull run for Tsla will most likely happen due to some BS catalyst like Elon buying millions of dollars worth of shares and not from any earning report. That's kind of how short term market works.
I've noted that every time someone holds up NVIDIA or some other type of stock as a crazy market disconnect relative to Tesla, that comparison stock corrects hard shortly thereafter

Start the timer!
 
Yup. Constantly getting out of the wife’s Kona and forgetting to turn it off. And walking away without locking it.
Funny thing is that I sometimes get out of my Kona and forget to turn it off and I don't have a Tesla.

I forget because for 11 years I had a Prius, and the self-centering shifter meant you could just turn it off and it put itself into park.
(I really liked that self-centering shifter: the benefit is that to select a particular gear/mode it's always the same motion, independent of what you are currently in). My wife didn't like driving the Prius so I drove it a lot.

I _could_ do the same with my Kona, but unfortunately if you turn it off directly, it won't unlock the charge port.

So I've managed to train my brain to hit park first, but it refuses to remember consistently to press off.
 
Go ask Nvidia how much of a PE ratio the market will tolerate regardless of earnings.

The next major bull run for Tsla will most likely happen due to some BS catalyst like Elon buying millions of dollars worth of shares and not from any earning report. That's kind of how short term market works.

That's because NVDA earnings already tanked from 2021 and market is pricing in a rebound.

Screen Shot 2023-04-12 at 1.13.23 PM.png



So yeah, if Tesla earnings get cut in half to say $0.5 for a few quarters, yeah maybe market will tolerate a PE ratio of 100, which would still be a flat share price compared to today. That's the proper comparison.

At these ASP's, Tesla automotive earnings growth is dead until gen 3 reaches volume production in 2 years. Tesla needs interest rates to go down to get automotive profits back up (model 3 / Y probably lost about $5000 in consumer purchasing power with rate hikes).

Otherwise, we need to bank of a Megapack or FSD miracle to move the share price. Not likely until 2024.
 
You can see the current China prices for the Model 3 and the Model Y here: Tesla Significantly Cut Model 3 And Model Y Prices In China

To answer your question, China prices are around $5k-$8k lower than the US equivalent, and I'd imagine most Chinese consumers would purchase the lowest cost options.

I think this quarterly earnings report presents a buying opportunity. ASP has come down by $5k since last quarter and I doubt global COGS has come down by nearly that much. The IRA credits apply only to the units sold in the US, I believe.
Even if I drop the ASP by $6k for 32% of the sales, I still come up with an ASP closer to ~$48k. (Still assuming a 0% option take.) So, I guess it will be interesting to see what the number is in a week.
 
Please name any $15k ICE that you believe will go to $0 in 3 years.
Depends where the car is located, the metal mass and if there is a cash for clunkers program at the time. According to Scrap Car Value Calculator , The average value for mid-size cars is between $150 to $300. If the rounding increment exceeds scrap value, let's say $1000, the value would then be defined as 0. With that definition, any obsolete tech goes to zero, be it a steam locomotive, a thick TV or an ICE car, that's obvious.

What I am unsure of is the time, since obsolescence is driven by a confluence of many forces, like swells in the ocean that suddenly roll together into a big wave when you don't expect it. Gas cars are already dead in e.g. Norway. That doesn't matter in America because the global used car market can soak up Norwegian oversupply without as much as a ripple on the surface. When continental forces get in motion it will look a bit different. Continental swells in confluence right now are:
  • Chinese dealers stuffed with millions of brand new unsold ICE cars. Price spiral approaching 0. Used cars might already be at 0 when people know they can get a new one for near 0. Neither did the auto OEMs see it coming in China, nor will they see it when it now happens in Europe and soon in the US.
  • In Europe, BEV share is hurdling toward 50% right now. Awfully close to a thick TV vs flatscreen moment.
  • One possible outcome is that tens of millions of unsold ICE cars in China and Europe get re-certified and shipped to the US to re-capture at least some of the value.
  • ICE manufacturers inside the US coming out of supply chain issues might ramp up ICE production at the exact same time. These three factors could bring new ICE prices near 0 this year and thereby used ICE cars to 0. It's also possible the Chinese government will bail out the ICE industry one last time and none of this chain reaction will take place, at least not this year. I can't imagine it taking longer than five though, so thought three years was a good middle ground for our ICE to hit 0.
These things are happening at the moment and will surely change unexpectedly. All scenarios lead to one thing though: ICE farting out its final puff of smoke.

After the first swell hits and ICE consumers have once tasted the sale of their own car for $0, possibly under bank reposession, they won't buy another one. If in doubt, ask any manufacturer of thick TVs what price they were fetching once LCD had taken hold.
 
The counter to this though is that most of Q1's delivery growth came from non-China deliveries. Specifically, US deliveries increase, and US deliveries actually have FSD options attached to them that is now fully recognized FSD revenue verses pre-Q4 being only 50% recognized. This dynamic is also why ASP over the course of 2023 won't be nearly the catastrophe that some are predicting. Most of the delivery growth will come from non-China sales in 2023....thus actually improving ASP....even if other countries see price cuts throughout 2023.

Point being, it's rather useless to make any sort of guess on ASP for Q1. There's simply too many variables. Once we have Q1 numbers, it will make the rest of the year much easier to estimate

The counter to this is Troy accounts for the changing geographic distribution. There is definitely room for error in Europe / China ASP estimates (not U.S.) but even an underestimate could still end up with ASP of 47k. Higher than 48k is quite unlikely.
 
That's because NVDA earnings already tanked from 2021 and market is pricing in a rebound.

View attachment 927761


So yeah, if Tesla earnings get cut in half to say $0.5 for a few quarters, yeah maybe market will tolerate a PE ratio of 100, which would still be a flat share price compared to today. That's the proper comparison.

At these ASP's, Tesla automotive earnings growth is dead until gen 3 reaches volume production in 2 years. Tesla needs interest rates to go down to get automotive profits back up (model 3 / Y probably lost about $5000 in consumer purchasing power with rate hikes).

Otherwise, we need to bank of a Megapack or FSD miracle to move the share price. Not likely until 2024.
Haha right. Maybe you don't follow in the semi space but no, after the China ban, crypto switching away from GPUs, and current bear market for PC purchases, their entire valuation is based on potential AI explosion in the future all thanks to the ChatGTP mania. Their earnings are expected to be in the crapper for another year or two.
 
Chinese dealers stuffed with millions of brand new unsold ICE cars. Price spiral approaching 0. Used cars might already be at 0 when people know they can get a new one for near 0. Neither did the auto OEMs see it coming in China, nor will they see it when it now happens in Europe and soon in the US.
  • In Europe, BEV share is hurdling toward 50% right now. Awfully close to a thick TV vs flatscreen moment.
  • One possible outcome is that tens of millions of unsold ICE cars in China and Europe get re-certified and shipped to the US to re-capture at least some of the value.
It was a few years back in 2017, as part of the National Sword campaign to reduce pollution by improving recycling standards, that China stopped taking dirty 'recycling' garbage unless of higher quality and proper pre cleaned. Sounds like soon the US might take and recycle legacy ice cars for China instead.
 
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The counter to this is Troy accounts for the changing geographic distribution. There is definitely room for error in Europe / China ASP estimates (not U.S.) but even an underestimate could still end up with ASP of 47k. Higher than 48k is quite unlikely.
Troy's method as far as I know for US ASP is based on limited DMV registration data which records trim level but does not record options purchased. The way Tesla does their official "trim" variants (LR, P, etc..) is significantly different because most options are outside of the trim level. Given the fact that Q1 had the tax credit, we don't know how consumers decided to use the credit (pocket all of the savings or use some of it for options).

Tesla lowered prices enough for there to be room for significant options to be added without the consumer going over the 80k limit for SUV. So to me Troy's method of determining US ASP is significantly flawed. Something as small as an adoption rate increase of 5-10% for Enhanced Autopilot or FSD purchases thanks to the extra savings from the tax credit could have big impacts to US ASP.

And I know, Troy sources from his spreadsheets for adoption rates of Enhanced Autopilot/FSD purchases but as Tesla sales increase, the % of people actually putting their information into his spreadsheets continues to decrease. It becomes less and less of reliable source of anecdotal evidence as sales grow.
 
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I would caution underestimating just how much hitting volume production impacts gross margin during a factory ramp. Remember how Model 3's and even Model Y's gross margin improved dramatically in a short period of time when Tesla hit the 4,000-5,000/week threshold. Also a very key thing to point out is that gross margins improved while ASP DECLINED for both the 3 and the Y ramps. As Tesla hit the 4,000-5,000/week numbers, they lowered prices and/or introduced lower trim variants. If you remember correctly, during 2021, this continually on display. So much that Tesla bears were dumbfounded and just resorted to Tesla was cooking the books.

Remember not just the factor of hitting a certain gross margin number when at say 5k/week, there's also the dynamic of how much the under 5k/week was hurting gross margins in previous quarters
This ^

Some costs are variable or per unit, tooling, stamping, casting, bill of materials (ignoring supplier volume efficiencies).
Some costs are fixed and include things like the factory itself and utilities and get divided by number of units produced. Labor is included here, but adding shifts resets the equation.

Berlin and Austin were gross margin positive in Q3 2022. Given the reported weekly records:
Berlin: 2k/wk Oct 2, 3k Dec 18, 4k Feb 28, 5k Mar 28
Austin: 3k/wk Dec 15, 4k/wk April 2

Q3 was likely <2k/wk each so <50k combined
How much more contribution will they have when they sell ~90k? That is 40k vehicles of additional revenue with similar total fixed costs, meaning their additive effect is average sales price minus variable cost .
 
This ^

Some costs are variable or per unit, tooling, stamping, casting, bill of materials (ignoring supplier volume efficiencies).
Some costs are fixed and include things like the factory itself and utilities and get divided by number of units produced. Labor is included here, but adding shifts resets the equation.
This is also why it's important to note that Tesla highlighted in their Q4 earnings deck that production efficiency and volume improved while man hours needed for that level of production decreased. Which again means gross margin improvement. This was specifically mentioned for both Fremont and Shanghai.
 
That's because NVDA earnings already tanked from 2021 and market is pricing in a rebound.

View attachment 927761


So yeah, if Tesla earnings get cut in half to say $0.5 for a few quarters, yeah maybe market will tolerate a PE ratio of 100, which would still be a flat share price compared to today. That's the proper comparison.

At these ASP's, Tesla automotive earnings growth is dead until gen 3 reaches volume production in 2 years. Tesla needs interest rates to go down to get automotive profits back up (model 3 / Y probably lost about $5000 in consumer purchasing power with rate hikes).

Otherwise, we need to bank of a Megapack or FSD miracle to move the share price. Not likely until 2024.

There's another significant profitability driver besides interest rates that you're forgetting about: Gas Prices! When they go up, demand and EV prices go up too!
 
Welp, Troy is estimating ASP this quarter coming in under $47k based on real data (e.g. DMV registrations). This will put EPS probably at or under consensus of $0.85.

And consenus is under $1, so this is not outlandish. If earnings scales with deliveries over course of the year to 1.9 million delivered, EPS will be ~ $3.8 of the year.

While COGs may come down a bit, people are in denial for how much ASP has come down already. Flat YoY earnings means PE ratios of 50 or higher won't be tolerated.
That bearish post (your own) that you quoted was from January 5th, when TSLA closed at $110. Good timing. :rolleyes:

Is today's post another buy signal?
 
Depends where the car is located, the metal mass and if there is a cash for clunkers program at the time. According to Scrap Car Value Calculator , The average value for mid-size cars is between $150 to $300. If the rounding increment exceeds scrap value, let's say $1000, the value would then be defined as 0. With that definition, any obsolete tech goes to zero, be it a steam locomotive, a thick TV or an ICE car, that's obvious.

What I am unsure of is the time, since obsolescence is driven by a confluence of many forces, like swells in the ocean that suddenly roll together into a big wave when you don't expect it. Gas cars are already dead in e.g. Norway. That doesn't matter in America because the global used car market can soak up Norwegian oversupply without as much as a ripple on the surface. When continental forces get in motion it will look a bit different. Continental swells in confluence right now are:
  • Chinese dealers stuffed with millions of brand new unsold ICE cars. Price spiral approaching 0. Used cars might already be at 0 when people know they can get a new one for near 0. Neither did the auto OEMs see it coming in China, nor will they see it when it now happens in Europe and soon in the US.
  • In Europe, BEV share is hurdling toward 50% right now. Awfully close to a thick TV vs flatscreen moment.
  • One possible outcome is that tens of millions of unsold ICE cars in China and Europe get re-certified and shipped to the US to re-capture at least some of the value.
  • ICE manufacturers inside the US coming out of supply chain issues might ramp up ICE production at the exact same time. These three factors could bring new ICE prices near 0 this year and thereby used ICE cars to 0. It's also possible the Chinese government will bail out the ICE industry one last time and none of this chain reaction will take place, at least not this year. I can't imagine it taking longer than five though, so thought three years was a good middle ground for our ICE to hit 0.
These things are happening at the moment and will surely change unexpectedly. All scenarios lead to one thing though: ICE farting out its final puff of smoke.

After the first swell hits and ICE consumers have once tasted the sale of their own car for $0, possibly under bank reposession, they won't buy another one. If in doubt, ask any manufacturer of thick TVs what price they were fetching once LCD had taken hold.

My go-to example of this is back in the mid to late-00's when gas prices spiked to $4/gallon. Ford Expeditions and similarly huge SUVs literally disappeared off the American highways almost overnight.

Remember, rapid change always seems impossible until it happens.
 
At this point, it's a foregone conclusion that earnings growth will come grinding to a halt. We laughed but I guess Adam Jonas was right, 2023 EPS might be under $4.

What PE ratio do you give to a company with no earnings growth, 10?

TSLA with a PE ratio of 10 is $40. Even with a generous 20 it would be $80. This stock literally might have been one of the biggest bubbles of all time.

Maybe it will recover some earnings growth but not for 2 years minimum.

Folks can try to convince themselves that this puts pressure on the competition - sure. But it's also going to put pressure on our bank accounts, somehow even worse than it has been.

Meanwhile Elon has been selling at local max points.

Can you say bagholders?
Just to be clear, this is when you told us all we should be selling on January 5th with the SP at ~$110.