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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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@MC3OZ You're trying to be reasonable. That's why TSLAQ bears will beat you, because they're not constrained by being reasonable, or honest, or factual. Rhetoric is a dirty game.

This is a grudge match now, like it or not. Just ask the Delaware Chancery Court, who took 300 million shares from Elon with the stroke of a pen. You think the shareholder with nine shares, or the law firm which has a history of serial lawsuits of this type, wasn't financed by some hedge fund? Good luck with that.

They are targeting Elon in every way and through every means which they can imagine. Whether that be media FUD, frivolous lawsuits, or unfair treatment by government, their greed and their hatred is unbounded.

Not only do I expect Elon to burn some bridges and ships, I also expect him to burn some shorts. The dino-sours and fossil-fools won't let him live in peace. They have to attack his mission. If this was ancient Rome, Elon would be Spartacus. In the modern world, Elon is Spartacus with a rocket spear, and a legion of millions of followers.

"I am Spartacus." ;)
 
I don't think folks get this fully. Chinese BEVs are already well under $25K. No, they can't import to US yet, but the rest of the world is fair game. And if we somehow envisioned everyone buying the Gen 3, why bother when there's that RT right around the corner and inflation is insanely high (which is just a hunch)?

This could be a race to the bottom for margins there. There might not even be an economy standing where people could afford them. But RT are future-proof.
But there is no competition?
 
I don't think folks get this fully. Chinese BEVs are already well under $25K. No, they can't import to US yet, but the rest of the world is fair game. And if we somehow envisioned everyone buying the Gen 3, why bother when there's that RT right around the corner and inflation is insanely high (which is just a hunch)?

This could be a race to the bottom for margins there. There might not even be an economy standing where people could afford them. But RT are future-proof.


IIRC those cheap chinese EVs aren't that cheap outside of China (ie not even in the EU, where some chinese makers do sell-- and the EU is already talking about raising tariffs further)--- the US market already has considerable protectionism from that, to the point BYD said they're not entering the market.

So the TAM for a 25k BEV remains pretty big for Tesla even if the market in China would be very tough.

(and it'd be INSANELY good in the US if they could make it for 25k profitably AND have it qualify for the IRA credit, but they'd need a massive # of non-china sourced batteries)




Ya not sure what the logic here is. maybe time to change this.

At the time Tesla announced no lease buyouts (on the 3 originally- now all cars) it was because Tesla said they wanted them back to deploy as robotaxis.

That obviously hasn't happened-- but it did end up benefitting services and other quite a bit when they got a ton of profit from spiking used car values during the pandemic.

That's no longer true though- so it's kind of a mystery why this policy remains.
 
No downside risk, Max flex.


Why the Market gets the Robotaxi - Compact Car story Totally Wrong

While most people think Tesla has chosen between Robotaxi and Compact Car, the reality is that Tesla is making one model that is technically so similar it is technically both. Adding controls is a quick fix you can do anytime without a huge time effort.

Tesla will have one production line for both cars with the unboxed process and from the outside, you won't see any difference at all. In fact, the test production line already exists. There is no delay of the compact car at all, it is coming.

Elon uses a smart risk-avoiding strategy because if FSD takes for whatever reason longer, Tesla can sell the car as a compact car, and if FSD goes as predicted fast, it's a no-brainer to use it as such because of the expected 5 times higher margin and incredible profit.

Vehicles that are sold as compact cars can be any time later reused as full-blown Robotaxis and Tesla may even only lease them to have enough vehicles coming back if needed.

There is no bet or gamble but an awesome strategy. $tsla

h/t @avoigt
I like what you're suggesting, but felt Tesla did something similar with 4680s. Didn't they originally aim to have Berlin, and then Austin build MYs with structural 4680 packs, with a risk-avoiding strategy of non-structural 2170s as the "backup" plan. I don't know if I'm misremembering or have been misguided by FUD. I'm just left with the feeling that Tesla was overly hopeful on the 4680 timeline. I think all MYs are currently 2170 cells? If true, I'd prefer a parallel play for FSD and gen3. Nonetheless, I just put in another buy order, and will continue to DCA more at these levels...just with less confidence than usual.
 
Given that, as an investor (or a test if I really am one), I started to think more specifically about Robo-Taxis and how they might really work in my life and the lives of people I know. It is one thing to parrot "it is a gazillion dollar industry!" or "It will never work" - it is another to try to model it out...not with the goal of proving it works or doesn't, but with the goal of simply trying to see if it fits your use cases or how it could.
My wife and I are older and neither of us is currently working (although if TSLA keeps dropping I likely will be...but I digress), so we modeled for us and then discussed my son and his wife with two little kids (in car seats)....and then larger families. We also discussed the interplay between FSD on your PERSONAL car and Robo-Taxis. Here is some of the stuff we covered in a discussion this morning:

Commuting
Commuting back and forth to work seemed like an obvious use-case. It has a reasonably predicable time each day for coming and going. The challenge - you need a lot of RobotTaxis of course (as noted in other discussions) since commute windows are "peak" utilization.

Grocery Runs
A grocery store run requires two rides - one there and one back. The one there is relatively easy. The one back is different as it requires you load groceries into the trunk/frunk and when you get home, the car has to sit and wait for you to unload it...preferably close to a door nearest to your kitchen. In our case, that would be a door INSIDE our garage. So, for this use case, the car will need to have software capable of:
- implementing a "wait" mode (i.e. don't drive off right after you drop me off)
- park "here" specifically
- implementing an "extend wait for x more minutes" (i.e. little Johnny had to go to the bathroom, need car to wait while I handle that before I unload those groceries) - would text user to let them know "Hey, I am still waiting...do you want to continue or can I leave?", etc.)

Multi-Errand
When out and about we often run multiple errands. In some cases, the car will need to have software modes to just "wait here" while the user goes inside (i.e. to pick up dry cleaning perhaps or a prescription). In other cases, if an errand was going to take a while (like going to the doctor) before the next one, you will be better off terminating that trip. and then summoning another taxi when done (to either take you home or head to next errand (i.e. pick up a prescription after that doctor visit).

One thing that starts to become clear, is that you need a lot of Robo-Taxis in many cases to satisfy the "go here, do something for a while and then go home or to the next place". I do however, think that a Robo-Taxi might just "sit" somewhere (like the grocery store) after it drops you off there...if it gets another call, you will be summoning one to come get you when you are done. If not, it is there ready for you when you come out.

Spur of the Moment Stuff
Lots of errands are spur of the moment or less "scheduled". This can be solved with RTs, but really comes down to the need for a volume of them.

Kid Car Seats
If you have kids or know anyone with kids you can appreciate the challenge of car seats. They are often huge, multi-part (carrier plus base), rear-facing (taking up a lot of space), and unique. Children are in rear-facing seats for YEARS now (this ain't the 60s/70s). In a RoboTaxi model some options might be:
- Rider brings the car seat and installs it themselves - this is practically a non-starter for most parents
- Robotaxis have "convertible" seat options where one or more seats can do some "flip around magic" to have a car seat (or car seat "base" at least) appear at the push of a button or whatever. Volvo has a simple booster seat option similar to this, but rear-facing seats are, of course, more complex.
- There could be Robo-taxis with dedicated child car seats
I do think a "universal" base for car seats would help here as owners might be willing (in SOME cases) to just slot their carrier into a universal base. Note that carriers are typically just used for babies and very small toddlers (i.e. my 1 year old grandson is in a carrier sometimes, but his 3 year old sister is obviously not).

Big Families
A 6 person family where everyone is going to church or a ball game or wherever will obviously need more seats in any vehicle - with some of them potentially being kid car seats, etc. In this case, larger "mini-van" style Robo-taxis will be needed. This seems pretty-straightforward. Ultimately, it will come down to the percentage of people needing X. Mini-van taxis will be produced in the quantities the market requires. Indeed, I could see the RT world with two predominant forms - the 2 seater and the mini-van (call it a 6 seater).

Hauling Stuff
This and other use-cases start to become a little more "one-off" for the AVERAGE person. They could be addressed with dedicated vehicle types or just leave them as rented standalone cars.

Your life
My recommendation is to model trips you have taken over the last month against two things:
- Robo-Taxi
- Full Self Driving in your own personal car

As an example, on Monday nights my wife and I happen to attend two different Bible-studies at our church. Today, we have ONE car (note: my Tesla broke...and then broke again...and again...was compelled to sell it - a story for another time). Right now, her study starts at 6, and mine at 7pm. I was taking her at 6, driving home, driving back at 7 for my study, then (since hers ran longer than mine - she is a leader), either waiting around for her or going home only to turn around and go back and get her. A Robo-taxi would clearly help with that, but SO WOULD FSD IN MY PERSONAL CAR. She could take the car at 6pm and then "send it back home", for me and then I would drive (or it would drive me) it to my 7pm and back home...and then I send it back to the church to get her...basically, it becomes our own personal taxi (but w/o a driver).

Any overlapping event scenario starts to become very interesting for either a personal car with FSD or RoboTaxi world. If I wanted to see one child's school play, while simultaneously needing to pick a second child up from band practice, I could either leverage RoboTaxis OR drive to my child's school in my own car and then SEND my personal car (with FSD) to get the second child. Heck, the latest Uber ads are clearly targeting this kind of thing. When any parent sees those Uber ads they are concerned about the Uber driver (in a world of "don't talk to strangers!") - which is why the ads purposefully talk about only the best drivers, etc. getting these drives. Now take that fear away with no driver in a RT or your own personal car (with FSD).

At first, it seemed like the RT would be a pain in the butt to deal with, but the more I really challenged it the more it seemed to work. Certainly, I started to see complimentary scenarios where both RTs and personal cars with FSD would be great. The combination of the two makes a "one car family" a LOT more feasible than I imagined.

TLDR - lots of Robo-Taxis with specialized seating combined with personal cars with FSD likely works for a huge number of use cases.

Finally, one additional tidbit. Jordan from "The Limiting Factor" recently test drove the Cybertruck (which does not currently have FSD), and posted a short video afterwards noting that he missed FSD from his current Tesla, BUT not just as a "convenience"...he recognized he has become somewhat "reliant" on it and it was a little jarring (my words) dealing with driving without it. Driving may just be something folks just don't want to "deal with" over time. Heck, very few shift their own gears these days. They don't even like to unlock their car or even have to use the fob now!
 
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I like what you're suggesting, but felt Tesla did something similar with 4680s. Didn't they originally aim to have Berlin, and then Austin build MYs with structural 4680 packs, with a risk-avoiding strategy of non-structural 2170s as the "backup" plan. I don't know if I'm misremembering or have been misguided by FUD. I'm just left with the feeling that Tesla was overly hopeful on the 4680 timeline. I think all MYs are currently 2170 cells? If true, I'd prefer a parallel play for FSD and gen3. Nonetheless, I just put in another buy order, and will continue to DCA more at these levels...just with less confidence than usual.


Correct- and one of the recent reports was that he Y structural battery lines had been broken up and machines repurposed elsewhere (though it was one of those anonymous employee source things so YMMV)
 
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A few thoughts below...

My sense for the upcoming announcements prior to and at earnings are going to be profound.

Why? Tesla could walk down several paths to fulfill the company's mission.

If I had to pick one, it would be to resolve each major car markets regulatory needs by putting 'in-country' vertical integration. Raw materials in, completed autonomous-ready cars out. Already/nearly in place for China, US and Europe...largely. And would expect this for India, Japan and Brazil markets. They'll need to do this to compete with BYDs expansion. Not just for manufacturing, but for FSD data sovereignty needs.

With FSD specifically, the need to be vertically integrated by country is essential prior to a world generalization model, so I'm expecting specific country 'air gapped' training and inference which means localized in-country full stack vertical infrastructure (obviously based on each countries gov needs).

The platform for RT is the big unknown for me as I could see several paths here as well. And if I had to pick a single path, I'd only produce a platform/vehicle that is NOT sold, NOT human driven (my interpretation of going "balls to the wall" on autonomy) and extensible to both carry humans and packages (NOT pallets, NOT wide load, NOT heavy trucking).

This is two variants with seats. Human carrying two with light cargo for unprecedented efficiency or carrying 8 with light cargo to replace mass transit.

Then remove the seats for the utility cargo only version. I'd expect the 2 seater to be built first with the 8 seater a follow on.
 
The biggest gripe I hear about Tesla leasing is supposedly you cannot buy the vehicle at the end of the term.
I have always believed this is because Tesla does not want anyone to own a car... we just keep parking them. But I think I'm missing the economics of this strategy.

Anyone know why Tesla doesn't allow buying the vehicle at term end? A logical reason? Has anyone else done this?

(Edit: @Knightshade answered this, @Discoducky confirmed.)
 
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I have always believed this is because Tesla does not want anyone to own a car... we just keep parking them. But I think I'm missing the economics of this strategy.

Anyone know why Tesla doesn't allow buying the vehicle at term end? A logical reason? Has anyone else done this?
I thought it was for RT fleet but seems unneeded since they plan on building new vehicles for it.
 
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Grocery Runs
A grocery store run requires two rides - one there and one back. The one there is relatively easy. The one back is different as it requires you load groceries into the trunk/frunk and when you get home, the car has to sit and wait for you to unload it...preferably close to a door nearest to your kitchen. In our case, that would be a door INSIDE our garage. So, for this use case, the car will need to have software capable of:
- implementing a "wait" mode (i.e. don't drive off right after you drop me off)
- park "here" specifically
- implementing an "extend wait for x more minutes" (i.e. little Johnny had to go to the bathroom, need car to wait while I handle that before I unload those groceries) - would text user to let them know "Hey, I am still waiting...do you want to continue or can I leave?", etc.)

I'm honestly having some trouble make this use case make sense compared to just instacart-- which also saves me the time both ways and the time shopping for a fee that'd almost certainly be comparable, or less, than a round-trip RT ride (let alone cost of my time)


Multi-Errand
When out and about we often run multiple errands. In some cases, the car will need to have software modes to just "wait here" while the user goes inside (i.e. to pick up dry cleaning perhaps or a prescription). In other cases, if an errand was going to take a while (like going to the doctor) before the next one, you will be better off terminating that trip. and then summoning another taxi when done (to either take you home or head to next errand (i.e. pick up a prescription after that doctor visit).

IIRC Uber already has a multi-stop feature with idle fees so this one seems a solved problem.


Kid Car Seats
If you have kids or know anyone with kids you can appreciate the challenge of car seats. They are often huge, multi-part (carrier plus base), rear-facing (taking up a lot of space), and unique. Children are in rear-facing seats for YEARS now (this ain't the 60s/70s). In a RoboTaxi model some options might be:
- Rider brings the car seat and installs it themselves - this is practically a non-starter for most parents
- Robotaxis have "convertible" seat options where one or more seats can do some "flip around magic" to have a car seat (or car seat "base" at least) appear at the push of a button or whatever. Volvo has a simple booster seat option similar to this, but rear-facing seats are, of course, more complex.
- There could be Robo-taxis with dedicated child car seats
I do think a "universal" base for car seats would help here as owners might be willing (in SOME cases) to just slot their carrier into a universal base. Note that carriers are typically just used for babies and very small toddlers (i.e. my 1 year old grandson is in a carrier sometimes, but his 3 year old sister is obviously not).

Big Families

A 6 person family where everyone is going to church or a ball game or wherever will obviously need more seats in any vehicle - with some of them potentially being kid car seats, etc. In this case, larger "mini-van" style Robo-taxis will be needed. This seems pretty-straightforward. Ultimately, it will come down to the percentage of people needing X. Mini-van taxis will be produced in the quantities the market requires. Indeed, I could see the RT world with two predominant forms - the 2 seater and the mini-van (call it a 6 seater).

Hauling Stuff
This and other use-cases start to become a little more "one-off" for the AVERAGE person. They could be addressed with dedicated vehicle types or just leave them as rented standalone cars.


Yeah this is why a single RT model is insufficient if it wants to replace all/most cars.

A 2-passenger one will replace some-- but I've certainly needed to call UberXLs when it was a group of 4+ people going somewhere- plus the family situations or cargo ones you mention.
 
I have always believed this is because Tesla does not want anyone to own a car... we just keep parking them. But I think I'm missing the economics of this strategy.

Anyone know why Tesla doesn't allow buying the vehicle at term end? A logical reason? Has anyone else done this?

It could be that Tesla expects the expired lease driver will be likely to want another Tesla and will buy or lease a new one in most cases.

This makes the car from the previous lease available for sale on the used market, possibly at a higher price than they might expect from a lease-end purchase. Though profit might not be the reason, as this strategy also aligns with the Mission, as there will likely be one more EV sold/leased into the world than would be if they let the lease-holder buy the car.
 
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No downside risk, Max flex.


Why the Market gets the Robotaxi - Compact Car story Totally Wrong

While most people think Tesla has chosen between Robotaxi and Compact Car, the reality is that Tesla is making one model that is technically so similar it is technically both. Adding controls is a quick fix you can do anytime without a huge time effort.

Tesla will have one production line for both cars with the unboxed process and from the outside, you won't see any difference at all. In fact, the test production line already exists. There is no delay of the compact car at all, it is coming.

Elon uses a smart risk-avoiding strategy because if FSD takes for whatever reason longer, Tesla can sell the car as a compact car, and if FSD goes as predicted fast, it's a no-brainer to use it as such because of the expected 5 times higher margin and incredible profit.

Vehicles that are sold as compact cars can be any time later reused as full-blown Robotaxis and Tesla may even only lease them to have enough vehicles coming back if needed.

There is no bet or gamble but an awesome strategy. $tsla

h/t @avoigt
What you are stating was always the plan, but most here seem to think FSD or bust. Elon is NOT building a factory in India to build RTs. But do you know what would sell to the chagrin of many here? A cheaper Gem 3 EV.

 
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Grocery Runs
A grocery store run requires two rides - one there and one back. The one there is relatively easy. The one back is different as it requires you load groceries into the trunk/frunk and when you get home, the car has to sit and wait for you to unload it...preferably close to a door nearest to your kitchen. In our case, that would be a door INSIDE our garage. So, for this use case, the car will need to have software capable of:
- implementing a "wait" mode (i.e. don't drive off right after you drop me off)
- park "here" specifically
- implementing an "extend wait for x more minutes" (i.e. little Johnny had to go to the bathroom, need car to wait while I handle that before I unload those groceries) - would text user to let them know "Hey, I am still waiting...do you want to continue or can I leave?", etc.)

Multi-Errand
When out and about we often run multiple errands. In some cases, the car will need to have software modes to just "wait here" while the user goes inside (i.e. to pick up dry cleaning perhaps or a prescription). In other cases, if an errand was going to take a while (like going to the doctor) before the next one, you will be better off terminating that trip. and then summoning another taxi when done (to either take you home or head to next errand (i.e. pick up a prescription after that doctor visit).

One thing that starts to become clear, is that you need a lot of Robo-Taxis in many cases to satisfy the "go here, do something for a while and then go home or to the next place". I do however, think that a Robo-Taxi might just "sit" somewhere (like the grocery store) after it drops you off there...if it gets another call, you will be summoning one to come get you when you are done. If not, it is there ready for you when you come out.
Do people really do single store "Grocery Runs"? Everyone I know stops at multiple stores, so I guess that falls into the "Multi-Errand" category. But each stop is longer as it is actually shopping, not just picking something up. A typical run for our family is 4-5 hours. Which would require keeping the same Robo-Taxi reserved for the entire 4-5 hour period. At some stops I may stay in the car and watch Netflix... How much would that trip cost? (How much are they going to charge for parked time? Does it cost more if you stay in the vehicle with HVAC running while using the Infotainment system?)

Personally, I could see us only using a Robo-Taxi a couple times a year. (About how often we use Uber now.)
 
Would you have said the same thing in 2019 about a $2250 share price five years later?

$150 x 15 split = $2250
or, let's go with the ATH in October of 2021, $400 x 5 split = $2000, over a three year span

I only care about the market cap. 500 billion is not 13 trillion which no US company (or any company) has achieved, ever. Berkshire is at near $600,000 per share, it's not the share price, but the market cap of the company.
 
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I am not sure how anyone with kids could replace the 2nd car. Maybe it would make it unnecessary to get a 3rd car when the kids get their license but this wouldn't be hugely profitable. I would still prefer a $25k tesla for the 3rd car over having to rely on a RT.
While I tend to agree with your post, the $25K Tesla is quite a bit more since it requires other significant costs, ie insurance, electricity, registration, tires, cleaning, etc. TCO is significant even for a $25K vehicle.
 
It seems like a lot of posters here don't have any experience working with the general public. Why would we want Tesla to sell many low-margin vehicles instead of focusing on the much higher RTs? The more low-margin vehicles sold, the more headaches.
I can see the "low margin" customers now, it's what keeps four factories around the world humming. Still looking for the first "high-margin" RT to hit the pavement.
 
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I don't think we're the right crowd to be chiming in on how we would use RT.

OTOH, my son is that Uber and Scooter generation. I pay for his necessary trips because I'd rather him not mingle with traffic on a scooter. He is allowed to use it at his own discretion, but if abused then we will need another approach.

I'm literally paying about the same price as Tesla lease at this point. However, he doesn't have a license and no desire to own, especially in the Apt he's in. This is the audience who would love cheaper rides; they were never EVER going to buy that $25K vehicle that you all banked on.

Dare to think differently ;)