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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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I feel as bullish as ever after seeing and hearing Elon focused on Tesla, committed, strategic, and goal-oriented. Sure, I'd support a new compensation package giving him 25% control if he helped TSLA hit $5 T valuation. That would basically be 10x again. What's not to like?

Either Wall Street is impatient, stupid (or both):

1718398058200.png
 
I feel as bullish as ever after seeing and hearing Elon focused on Tesla, committed, strategic, and goal-oriented. Sure, I'd support a new compensation package giving him 25% control if he helped TSLA hit $5 T valuation. That would basically be 10x again. What's not to like?

Either Wall Street is impatient, stupid (or both):

View attachment 1056593
Tesla is already trading on a high P/E ratio. Wall Street just sees lower margins and declining revenue at the moment. All this talk of Elon is great but all Wall Street cares about are the numbers. They are not there at the moment.
I do think margins will increase again later this year. Then it will be a totally different ball game.
 
The 2 biggest catalysts for me this year are:

1. Back to hitting production and deliveries at ATH's per usual (even after terrorism...) - Q2 2024
2. Cybertruck volume production (e.g. 100k annual) - Q4 2024

Robotaxi is the wildcard if it can be enabled before end of year on the current fleet...whenever it reaches some inflection point like the 7M vehicle mark.
 
Question: where are you going to get the batteries for this mythical 2-door?
They don't even have enough US made batteries for the 3.
Elon said the market is awash with batteries. More variants would have avoided this slump. Not everybody wants to drive the same car. Isn't Elon being paid 1,000x other auto execs to figure out batteries?
 
Um. Your situation is your situation, of course, but let me point out a couple-three things.

Back in the day when the house was being built, the SO and I, both engineers, sat down with a few web-based tools (njcleanenergy.com, at the time), figured out how big a set of panels and inverters we'd need to power the house. This was back in 2004. Although there were incentives from places, we didn't know a Thing About Them, so just ran with how much we'd save on electricity. Careful calculation revealed that it would take fifteen (15) years. We might have done it anyway, but the builder had a covenant in the contract: No "ugly" additions until two years after the last building got sold. So, we sighed and went our way.

2008 rolled around and we ended up at a home show. Solar was still expensive, but (a) the State of NJ was throwing in 20% of the cost as an incentive and (b) the Feds then, as now, was throwing in 30% of the remainder as a Tax Credit. (That's not a deduction: Whatever you owed in taxes, you simply reduced that by 30% of the cost of the solar system. And if you hit zero (which we did), you get to use the excess that you didn't use in the following years, for as many years as it took. That was nice.

In addition, there was (c), this Solar Renewable Energy Credit. One got one of these for every MW-hr of energy generated by the panels, whether or not the energy thus created went to the power company or not: The only requirements were (a) it had to be a grid-tied system (no free-standers, thank-you-very-much) and, in NJ, the calculated total amount of energy generated per year had to be less than or equal to the previous amount of energy sucked down from the power company. (That was put in there so power companies wouldn't go broke.)

The SRECs are.. interesting. By public law:
  • A power utility in the state was required to generate a certain percentage of their power by "green" means. For every MW-hr of energy that they missed by, they would have to pay something called a "SICL" payment to the State.
    • The percentage would go up year on year.
    • The SICL payment amount would go down year on year.
  • The utility could pay that SICL payment - or they could hand the State an SREC. The SRECs were tradable. There's a platform called GATS that, amongst other things like controlling power flows across most of the eastern half of the nation, they handled the creation, sale, and retirement of these SRECs.
  • Initial percentages were in the low single digits, now in the medium double-digits. SICLs started off, I think, around $800/MW-hr; they're now around $220. Small companies would scurry around and get SRECs from homeowners and the like, buy them, and sell then en masse to the utilities, for less than the SICL payments.
As a result, in the first year, the SO and I were getting $600 or so per SREC. We're getting around $198 now. The SRECs continue for fifteen years after the solar installation.

Now, the funny bit: Back in 2008, an installed solar system was about $8000 per kW of solar panel on the roof. As I said, without the incentives, paying that off in reduced electric bills would take about fifteen years. The last time I checked, that number is now about $2000 per kW of solar panel on the roof - a factor of four reduction, not including inflation.

For that reason, the original SREC program was discontinued in NJ years ago: No more grants. And, while there is a bit of an SREC program, it pays far, far less then the old one.

If it took, using prices (and lower electric bills) back in the day 15 years, with a factor of four reduction in cost, it's going to take less than four years. Even better, the cost of electricity has gone up with inflation - so it'll take even less time to break even.

That's nice for those that have the capital to just Do The Install, which, as you noted, is around $20k for you. But it gets better.

Say one takes out a home improvement loan for a solar panel system for, say, ten years or something. Home improvement loans are backed up by the collateral of the house; as such, they're generally low risk to lenders and get mortgage rates for interest. Do the calculations: The Home Improvement Loan amounts will be about 1/2 the cost of the electricity that one isn't paying for. This means that one is cash-flow-positive, from Day One. And, come the day that the loan is paid off.. Well, it's a-gonna take one whopper of a connection fee from the electric company to wreck them apples.

As far as hurricanes and such.. We asked about that. Building standards in NJ have lag bolts going into the attic rafters; they claimed that it was good for >120 mph winds, which is the same number for roofs in general up here. We don't get much in the way of hurricanes, although Sandy was fun, but Northeasters are a way of life up here, so we do get 70-80 mph winds from time to time.

As far as wear and tear on the roof: Well, it's a south facing roof where the panels are and, as near as I can tell, the panels are protecting the roof shingles. From sunlight. Which does wear out asphalt tiles.

We do get significant snow up this way; there's been up to a foot and some of snow on the roof from time to time. Interestingly, given the least amount of above-freezing weather, the glass on the solar panels kind of melts the bottom most layer of snow, and the whole mess just up and avalanches off the roof, shaking the house and deck behind the house. We lost one deck table that way from a couple hundred pounds of snow falling a couple stories. But we start getting electricity right afterwards, no problems.

Had one (1) leak, about four years in. In NJ, to be in the whole solar installation business with the SRECs and all, everything had to be warrantied for 15 years. So the guys showed up, saw the leak where I pointed it out, got on the roof, moved panels around, and fixed it. Dry since then.

I dunno. There's not a heck of a lot of argument against solar panel systems. Money in one's pocket and all that.
I don't know why you keep making long posts about your NJ situation with solar. Our situations are different as is solar in every state.
I'm in the panhandle with little competition between few solar installers. Our rates are cheap, the state doesn't give any incentives and an agressive payback is 12 years. Plus many insurers will drop you when insurance is hard enough as it is. I'm stuck with the state provider right now. We also have to have an extra $1M policy if over 10kW
 
Because Elon bet the house on 4680 and lost.

That's just false.

The plan has always been to use LFP for standard range vehicles. Remember this graphic from Battery Day?

1718401247151.png


The patents covering the use of LFP as a cathode in the US and countries with reciprocal patent law only expired at the end of 2022. There are only now pilot lines of American-made LFP batteries. China is still the only country to produce them at scale.
 
The 2 biggest catalysts for me this year are:

1. Back to hitting production and deliveries at ATH's per usual (even after terrorism...) - Q2 2024
2. Cybertruck volume production (e.g. 100k annual) - Q4 2024

Robotaxi is the wildcard if it can be enabled before end of year on the current fleet...whenever it reaches some inflection point like the 7M vehicle mark.
I dont think we have to wait for robotaxi as such to add a 3rd item to your list. If 12.5, or 12.6 proves to be demonstrably better than the current version (and everyone at Tesla seems very confident of continuing progress) then we will see:
  • A higher take-rate for FSD, which will drive up margins
  • More sales in general, as a non-zero percentage of buyers think its now risky to buy a new car without a path to FSD
  • Roll outs of FSD to China, Europe
  • Wall st realizing that robotaxi may not be here right now, or even next year, but its definitely coming, and Tesla are ahead of the rest

FSD has frankly been an albatross around the stock for almost a decade. Elon was way too optimistic, and as a result has become the boy who cried wolf. However, sentiment cant flip real fast, and once a decent chunk of wall st analysts have tried 12.4 or 12.5/6 things may change for the better.
Also worth noting that most investors don't realize what a great opportunity the semi is, but if you add FSD to the semi, the value proposition for that is truly hilarious. That will be a 2025/2026 story, but smart to buy in ahead!
 
You have to take them down to shingle your roof every 15 years (either insurance will make you do it in FL or you are taking your chances with storms). You cannot sell them after 15 years like you can an investment. They don't have resale value, and the terminal value is zero, so you cannot slap an ROI on the purchase like it's an investment.
Why don't you just put them back up once the new roof is on?
 
That's just false.

The plan has always been to use LFP for standard range vehicles. Remember this graphic from Battery Day?

View attachment 1056617

The patents covering the use of LFP as a cathode in the US and countries with reciprocal patent law only expired at the end of 2022. There are only now pilot lines of American-made LFP batteries. China is still the only country to produce them at scale.
It sometimes feels like a lot of the negative talking points about 4680s are over emotional. You would think 4680 batteries had caused covid and started a war in the middle east, as opposed to... just taking slightly longer to fulfill their potential.
 
Tesla is already trading on a high P/E ratio. Wall Street just sees lower margins and declining revenue at the moment. All this talk of Elon is great but all Wall Street cares about are the numbers. They are not there at the moment.
I do think margins will increase again later this year. Then it will be a totally different ball game.
Its Friday (actually it is).
 
It sometimes feels like a lot of the negative talking points about 4680s are over emotional. You would think 4680 batteries had caused covid and started a war in the middle east, as opposed to... just taking slightly longer to fulfill their potential.
Slightly longer happens after two more years. In 2020 Battery Day target date was for 2026.
 
Tesla is already trading on a high P/E ratio. Wall Street just sees lower margins and declining revenue at the moment. All this talk of Elon is great but all Wall Street cares about are the numbers. They are not there at the moment.
I do think margins will increase again later this year. Then it will be a totally different ball game.
You're right. Maybe numbers don't get much better til 2025 even. That's the impatient part, but consistent with WS' past practice..
 
I actually read up on what some robotics people thought about Optimus and it was interesting, in that most "robotics" people are all about the actual physical engineering challenges.

I see Optimus as the logical extension of FSD. The engineering of FSD is solved, what isn't solved is the conversion of the visualization of an object into code and then a reaction to such visualization. Of course, in a car, this has to be done at speed.

Optimus, it seems (does it not?) to be a more simple version of FSD "Optimus, can you hand me that platter of tapas?" Requires Optimus to locate and "see" the platter, walk over, pick it up, and bring it back. The whole ballgame (yes?) is "seeing" the object. Once its located, any robot could, and does, pick up and move an object.

That's where I see huge utility. The fact that Optimus sort of looks like a human robot is irrelevant.
 
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Unless it's changed, Tesla cars use ATT. Direct to cell uses T-Mobile. True, they could use T-Mobile for the Robotaxis Tesla owns, but not for others. Starlink cuts out T-Mobile's fee. It would mean that non-Tesla owned cars would need to purchase Starlink, but I suspect that in the future a Starlink antenna will be standard equipment (there would still be a subscription to use the service).
DTC is a way to communicate with any modern cell phone via physics. Contracts are a separate matter.
 
On PV & Roof Panels, and Waymo:

  • Let’s wrap up discussion of rooftop solar, hurricanes and energy incentives here soon, please. I am being lenient because I’m in the midst of augmenting my own system this very moment (just crawled down from the roof trying to figure out how I’m going to solve the next of a never-ending set of issues), so right now I’ve more than the normal amount of Mod-flexibility on that topic.

  • And we’ve had Waymo discussion of other FSD-like discussion than this thread should be subject to. I really hope to see Nomo.
 
Then, why are they having to use Chinese batteries in the 3?
The 2170 and 4680 form factor. The materials have gotten cheaper but moving the capacity to 2170 and 4680 will take time.

Disappointed no one asked about the Model 3 tax credit. We need to make sure this question is part of the quarterly call in July. Very disappointed if they are not urgently working on a battery pack/cells for the US model 3 that will get the credit for both RWD and LR both for the credit and for geopolitical reasons.