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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Tesla going into lithium mining and cell production is absolutely necessary IMO but presents multiple challenges:
  • According to my calculations, Tesla will very soon need all 35GW. Tesla vehicles would require 55GW in 2020 and 100GW in 2021.
  • Most probably, the Panasonic agreement is being renegotiated. I believe they are working on an outright purchase of the business wiping off the obligations.
  • Cell manufacturing is a high CAPEX low return according to Maxwell and Panasonic financial statements.
  • Going further down the supply chain increases the CAPEX per vehicle while probably reducing the cost per vehicle, will significantly increase inventory of unfinished products (Working capital). It will also reduce Accounts Payable because Tesla is its own supplier.
  • Tesla plan to replace Panasonic seems to add multiple steps: Lithium feedstock mining and shipping, processing it to battery grade lithium, source all other cell components, create the cathode, and finally create the cells. The cashflow cycle will ultimately depend on shipping and manufacturing lead times.
  • Tesla might need to access the capital markets again feeding the shorts narrative.
  • TESLA most probably had a full-scale plan prior to the decision to acquire Maxwell (Dec 2018). As I mentioned the 35GW will be reached by year end, and I expect the Battery Investor Day to be very soon.
  • I would be surprised if Tesla did not already provide Tesla Grohmann with an R&D budget to create a much faster cell production line.
  • There is a slight probability that the Boring Company might disrupt the traditional cost structure of rock mining.
  • Unlike battery manufacturing, it seems from public filings that lithium mining has good ROI.

Pretty sure Panasonic and/or Tesla is sourcing cathodes, anodes, lithium, and aluminum (or was it steel?) for the cans from other companies already. So they don't have to insource those all at once to replace Panasonic, to replace Panasonic they just need to hire all the same suppliers to supply them, and replace the special sauce (of which they already know much from being involved in it) of the electrolyte chemistry (which again, in part is supplied from outside likely, with just the method of mixing it together and ratios and such being proprietary), and the actual manufacture of cells from these parts (cans, anodes, cathodes, electrolytes).

So they might eventually insource some of these other aspects (i.e. lithium by becoming a mining operation) but if they're replacing Panasonic they only have to replace Panasonic, not the entire supply chain.
 
Q3 headwinds:
- US tax credit stepdown hangover
- End of pent-up SR+ demand in North America
- End of pent-up AWD/P demand in Europe
- China buyers possibly waiting for Shanghai version

There are some tailwinds, too, e.g. pent-up SR+ demand in Europe should last through Q3 and word-of-mouth effects should build. Q4 will have seasonal uplift, pull-forward from looming incentive stepdowns in US, Netherlands and China as well as possible Shanghai Model 3 availability.

Tesla sales are not dependent upon "pent-up demand". Tesla demand is largely dependent upon the growth of Tesla's marketing department. Oh, wait, Tesla has almost zero marketing. Right, their customers are their best salesforce. When someone takes delivery of a new Tesla, their friends, families and co-workers become curious. There are rides, test drives and discussions about reliability and cost to operate. Their salesforce is growing at an exponential rate. The shorts are right, it's like one big pyramid scheme! LOL! That's what's going to bite them in the ass.

A serious recession might cause a lack of demand, expiring tax credits will not because they are a drop in the bucket and Tesla is reducing production costs faster than the tax credits are becoming smaller. Shanghai factory will have considerably lower costs than Fremont and there will still be some synergies between the two that will further lower costs at the Fremont plant.

The real secret weapon is Tesla's salesforce which is growing at an exponential rate.
 
Im surprised I don't see this come up more often but I feel like ~3 years ago it became very obvious that autonomy was the future of the car industry. I know that an autonomous electric vehicle taxi is going to be far cheaper to operate than an ice one, but it feels like the defining success of the future of the automotive industry is going to be autonomy rather that electric.
You've sort of answered your own question. People who run taxis, whether companies or individuals, are looking for profit. No one--okay, very few--is going to buy a lower profit ICE car as a taxi.
 
Why would you post a link to something written by an anti-Tesla writer on an anti-Tesla site? There's no need for anyone here to click that link to support either of them.
While I dislike that guy (immensely) we was almost on the money last quarter. So the good thing this quarter is he is close to the lower end of guidance.
 
You've sort of answered your own question. People who run taxis, whether companies or individuals, are looking for profit. No one--okay, very few--is going to buy a lower profit ICE car as a taxi.

I guess my point wasn't to question Tesla demand. My question was to say, what are the facts that show Tesla is ahead of the game on self driving. I know we all believe it, and we all believe in Musk. But objectively to discuss that sounds like the most productive was for a collective discussing Teslas long term value.

I would also say, I imagine there are plenty of companies and investors will to foot the bill for a loss per mile at the cost of a ICE vehicle to get market share cornered until battery production can be worked out. I think autonomy is more important in the short term than EV production. People have footed the bill for uber to lose money per mile for almost a decade.

I mean something that has never been brought up - as far as I am aware - is that once autonomy works theres no reason for any rental car company to buy anything but cars that do that. Im honestly really surprised when I go to hertz now that their parking lots don't have more Tesla's available (because of the future-proof potential of self driving, not because of the EV component). A company that literally buys and rents out cars as a business model seems like it would be very incentivized to buy these vehicles to survive if they truly believe this transition was going to happen.

So my point is, what facts can we outline to discuss this. Traditional auto makers obviously say Tesla is BS, and Tesla says they are King. Disengagement reports in California are meaningless for this because people are working to evade having to report that. So what FACTS are available.
 
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Not understanding why analysts believe Q3 and 4 will see less demand for Tesla’s. The tax incentive is overplayed, gas isn’t going to 99 cents, and China + multiple other territories are soon to be more active. Tesla slow rolled demand by not advertising. The more people that drive them the more other people see them the more access people get to Tesla’s the more they want them.

But we’ll see maybe some of these analyst know something different

It's not so much about whether or not there will be less demand, but more about whether the growth in financial metrics will be sufficient to maintain the high multiples that "Mr. Market" currently uses in valuing TSLA on those metrics. The YoY quarterly comparables with 3Q18 and 4Q18 will be a high hurdle for historical growth rates, regardless if the comparisons are against Revenue, Gross Margin or Net Income.

As Tesla resolves the cell and M3 production constraints while delivering all M3 versions into international markets, it also works off backlog (and deposits) that accumulated since the reveal at the end of March 2016. (Deepak may have said disclosure of current reservations would not be "meaningful," but some inquiring minds might find them helpful--not just about M3 but also Y and Semi's)

The growth in demand for higher-margined Model Ss and Xs has also seemed to have flattened and possibly declined. Raven versions may revive demand to a degree, but the M3 just seems to be a better value all around for those who would previously consider the S or X as their only EV alternative. Sales of vehicles produced in GF3 and of the model Y are also major components in the continuing growth narrative, but neither will be much of a factor in 2H19 and better information about both should inform trading decisions as 2019 progresses.

If you are in the Tasha Keeney/Ark Investments camp--no worries. The next eighteen months are relatively inconsequential since it's mainly about autonomy and 2025. Just buy LEAP lotto tickets and ignore the near term.

If you are more in the camp that is as much interested in the preservation of their invested capital as in the potential huge returns on that investment, pay close attention to what is disclosed at the forthcoming Battery and Powertrain Investor Day. Hopefully some penetrating questions might be asked, such as;
  • How realistic is the $0.07/Kw-hr for Mega-Chargers, and what are the assumptions for calculating that price? How many sites for mega-charges have been acquired and where?
  • Why is the foot-print of GF-1 only 30% complete? Was the original foot-print just a mis-calculated SWAG or has build-out of the remaining 70% been deferred to use capital for more productive alternatives?
  • When will the remainder of the roof in the existing six sections of GF-1 be out-fitted with solar panels?
  • Where will the semi and pick-up trucks be produced? Starting when? Have any of the freight/trucking companies who placed deposits .
No analysts knows the future, but some are more focused on the quantitative, near-term and others on the qualitative future. Trade/invest accordingly.
 
Why would you post a link to something written by an anti-Tesla writer on an anti-Tesla site? There's no need for anyone here to click that link to support either of them.
We're just as bad as the anti-Tesla folks if we choose to ignore the reasons upon which they base their claims. I personally rarely look at anything written by that author but I can see why it would make sense to do so.

In order to make a convincing argument for Tesla, you need to know the arguments against Tesla. Keeping our heads in the sand just makes for sandy hair...
 
If battery tech advances fast enough that it is economic to recycle them into superior batteries this will be the outcome, otherwise they will just be repurposed for storage.

It's always about the economics:
  • So far, recycling cells to separate the constituent metal elements with sufficient purity for re-use in cells is more expensive than mining and refining raw ores as material inputs to cell production;
  • The dismantling/ testing/quality control-assurance to re-purpose used cells for use in grid-connected stationary storage of sufficient reliability acceptable to connections monitored by regional reliability councils so far is more expensive than simply buying un-used, new cells. (JB Straubel has acknowledged this in multiple presentations, but there are always small operators such as Jack/EVTV who repurpose used cells and disdain the legalities of the existing regulatory construct.)
 
OT
Personally, I really don't think that's the (type of) part that Elon was referring to. An Al alloy cast will not be strong enough to take the loads that this specific part seems designed to take. I think he was referring to some sort of underbody casing with a complex geometry but much lower load requirements.

I'm not sure there is a problem with Al. The drive unit casing is aluminum, most of the suspension arms are aluminum (extruded and sliced). On other cars, the rear control arms are aluminum even engines are aluminum (with steel sleeves).
 
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  • How realistic is the $0.07/Kw-hr for Mega-Chargers, and what are the assumptions for calculating that price? How many sites for mega-charges have been acquired and where?
No analysts knows the future, but some are more focused on the quantitative, near-term and others on the qualitative future. Trade/invest accordingly.
Without battery packs at those chargers I don't see how it's remotely possible, unless we are talking about charging overnight.
 
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