Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[BioSehnsucht]

Sorry, but what %age of car buyers make their choice dependant on track times? It must be so close to zero as to be meaningless.

Few, very few, but the "halo effect" is a thing. Still won't sway most buyers, and let's be realistic, will sway almost nobody who was already looking seriously at a Tesla.

But if Porsche manages to set the goal posts just right, and market the results just right, then it will shift a small number of potential EV buyers from Tesla to Porsche. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, if Porsche dealers do a good job of selling the Taycan to these people who come in to look at them, but what are the chances of that? It might end up dissuading some from EVs altogether if their perception is that Porsche is better than Tesla but then Porsche dealers make the buying / test driving experience difficult and/or the car just isn't a good enough experience (where possibly, a Tesla would have been)...

 

[Prunesquallor]

Here's one more response to a troll (God! I wish I had time to do this all day!):

TROLL:

"GM and VW have never really made a desirable hybrid and that's probably not because they couldn't but because they have never "gotten" hybrids.

Full electrics may work as the primary vehicle in Europe, but in America most people want to own at least one car that is capable of a serious "road trip". Several times a year I do 1000 mile drives and such trips would be an exercise in frustration to me in a full electric. With and internal combustion vehicle--or at least one capable of that mode--I can pull up to a pump every 3 or 4 hundred miles, fill up and be on my way in a matter of minutes. No way could I do that in any existing or foreseeable electric (and that's assuming I could even find a recharging station at a convenient spot along the highway).

I just think the battery technology does not exist--and probably won't exist in my remaining lifetime--to be the heart of a practical American primary vehicle."

------

ME:

"I just think the battery technology does not exist--and probably won't exist in my remaining lifetime--to be the heart of a practical American primary vehicle."

>> Excuse me, are you already dead? Because a Tesla is ALREADY capable of being a practical American primary vehicle.

>> Let me rewrite that previous paragraph for you:

"Full electrics may work as the primary vehicle in Europe or America, but most people in Antarctica or on Mars want to own at lease one car that is capable of a serious road trip. Here on Earth, in America, I do 1300 mile drives from Texas to California and such trips are enjoyable in a Tesla. With a Tesla, I can pull up to a Supercharger every 100 or 200 miles, recharge, and be on my way in 15-20 minutes while I take a quick restroom or snack break. No way I could do that in any other EV other than a Tesla, because of the fast Supercharging stations placed at convenient intervals along the highway"

When I tell people that there are actually quite a few chargers along the interstates, they are always surprised, because they don’t see 100-foot tall “Tesla” signs at the exits. “How do you know where they are?” they ask. I answer, “The car knows where they are”.

They kind of get that.

 

[brian45011]

Anyone trying to decipher the trend as 13Fs roll in? Seems a lot of the whales are changing positions in out of the convertibles, and many have large simultaneous put/call positions. Too bad that information is six weeks old

 

[M3Rider]

Just an anecdote but my stock front P3D pads glazed over and were shot after 2 track events. They didn't have any in stock so I went with an upgraded front set. I do assume the Porsche pads will be slightly better, but I'm also sure the Taycan price tag will be far higher. ​

I feel like there's no "better" brakes. They are tailored to specific conditions. What works for majority of people out of track does not work well on track. Metallic brakes might be best as far as temperature/performance that you want on track, but they wear out fast, squeal, etc. and might not be desirable for the average driving(likely ceramic brakes).

 

[Hock1]

So you don't think supplying batteries to all car manufactures will not be part of the mission? If Tesla can hit 2TH battery production in 2025 using Maxwell tech for example, you don't think some of these batteries will be sold off to other car companies as they are struggling to ramp production due to cell shortage from LG?

If Tesla is going to sell batteries to other companies, it will be in order to complete the mission and will be well before 2025. If it's 2025, it will be too late. IMO.

 

[SPadival]

Speaking of trolls and conspiracy theories, I have a theory of my own .

I think this dude @Polixenes is Hannah Montana Skeptic aka Larry the Fossil guy.

The reasons for my suspicion:

• Account originated in July 2018 and ramped up immediately with $TSLAQ tag on July 30th, coincidentally as Larry “quit” twitter on July 24th.
• Claims he is a former lawyer in NYC in some tweets
• Frequently refers to his seeking alpaca pet @coverdrive , just like he used to do on SA
• Uses words like "mendacious" , which normal human beings rarely use - I have seen Larry use it.

I would appreciate if all of you can crowd source more data points to help prove that Larry may be violating his agreement with his employer.

 

[MTL_HABS1909]

Speaking of trolls and conspiracy theories, I have a theory of my own .

I think this dude @Polixenes is Hannah Montana Skeptic aka Larry the Fossil guy.

The reasons for my suspicion:

• Account originated in July 2018 and ramped up immediately with $TSLAQ tag on July 30th, coincidentally as Larry “quit” twitter on July 24th.
• Claims he is a former lawyer in NYC in some tweets
• Frequently refers to his seeking alpaca pet @coverdrive , just like he used to do on SA
• Uses words like "mendacious" , which normal human beings rarely use - I have seen Larry use it.

I would appreciate if all of you can crowd source more data points to help prove that Larry may be violating his agreement with his employer.

I’d love to help but.....

 

[KarenRei]

It's a weakness of the older AC rear motor design, which will always have inherent heat dissipation issues. So you'd expect the Raven S to eventually roll-back power when doing continuous full-power launches, which largely depend on the powerful rear motor.

The good news is that, with the Raven's newer SRPM front motor, the power roll-back during constant high speed runs should occur at a much higher speed than the older dual-AC motor designs, since Raven is a mostly-FWD car on the highway (meaning it cruises on the front SRPM motor).

Cheers!

M3P is also induction + PM, just in the reverse config. It does just fine on the track.

Do you have any evidence of anyone actually being throttled on a Raven?

 

[EVDRVN]

There was the Toyota RAV4 EV with tesla technology in it, but then some oil company bought the battery maker and that was the end of that. Things could be different now that tesla could supply it all.

You mixed two EVs together. The G1 RAV was a Toyota product and a nice EV, G2 was a Tesla / Toyota mutual back scratch project that had a Tesla drive. The oil company did not buy the battery maker on the first they had the patent rights and prevented large format cells from being used in EVs only. The Tesla partnership with Toyota was to further greenwash Toyota with Toyota giving engineering props to Tesla and a token investment, In return Tesla saved Toyota's ass on NUMI and gave them temp CARB credits before hydrogen.

 

[SPadival]

I’d love to help but.....

Just create another id or browse in incognito mode without logging in.

 

[Silent Ludicrosy]

There's two errors there.

Coasting is more energy efficient than regen plus re-accelerate.

The taycan doesn't do 1-pedal driving. They will regen with the brake pedal.

Quote from car & driver:
“Many EVs provide enough deceleration when lifting off of the throttle to bring the vehicle to a complete stop and enable true one-pedal operation. Not the Taycan. Citing the fact that the most efficient thing to do is coast, and clearly not trusting the pedal control of its buyers, Meier said they decided to not offer much regen capability and instead wait to do the majority of regen when the driver pushes the brake pedal. There are two settings, though. The default is none, but a slight amount can be enabled, if desired.”
We Take a Tire-Squealing Ride in a 2020 Porsche Taycan

It is misleading to make the general statement that coasting is more efficient than regen. That is only true in certain situations, like coasting to a stop with plenty of room on a relatively flat road, and then it’s at the cost of average speed.

One pedal driving takes some getting used to, but after a while most people prefer it. It’s a shame Porsche doesn’t think it’s drivers can handle it.

 

[EVDRVN]

Quote from car & driver:
“Many EVs provide enough deceleration when lifting off of the throttle to bring the vehicle to a complete stop and enable true one-pedal operation. Not the Taycan. Citing the fact that the most efficient thing to do is coast, and clearly not trusting the pedal control of its buyers, Meier said they decided to not offer much regen capability and instead wait to do the majority of regen when the driver pushes the brake pedal. There are two settings, though. The default is none, but a slight amount can be enabled, if desired.”
We Take a Tire-Squealing Ride in a 2020 Porsche Taycan

It is misleading to make the general statement that coasting is more efficient than regen. That is only true in certain situations, like coasting to a stop with plenty of room on a relatively flat road, and then it’s at the cost of average speed.

One pedal driving takes some getting used to, but after a while most people prefer it. It’s a shame Porsche doesn’t think it’s drivers can handle it.

Because they have never driven an EV However a 911 used to have quite a bit of back pressure.

 

[gavine]

"...We need to ramp up production, we need to supply powertrain to other car companies..."

@6:15.

Great video by the way. Historic.

 

[adiggs]

Quote from car & driver:
“Many EVs provide enough deceleration when lifting off of the throttle to bring the vehicle to a complete stop and enable true one-pedal operation. Not the Taycan. Citing the fact that the most efficient thing to do is coast, and clearly not trusting the pedal control of its buyers, Meier said they decided to not offer much regen capability and instead wait to do the majority of regen when the driver pushes the brake pedal. There are two settings, though. The default is none, but a slight amount can be enabled, if desired.”
We Take a Tire-Squealing Ride in a 2020 Porsche Taycan

It is misleading to make the general statement that coasting is more efficient than regen. That is only true in certain situations, like coasting to a stop with plenty of room on a relatively flat road, and then it’s at the cost of average speed.

One pedal driving takes some getting used to, but after a while most people prefer it. It’s a shame Porsche doesn’t think it’s drivers can handle it.

I read articles like this, and I keep hoping for serious competition. And then I keep finding stuff like the default is no regeneration, or it's on the brake pedal and the author's comment that it's as if Porsche doesn't trust their driver's pedal control. I've had so many people drive my Model X, I have to delete driver profiles now to add the next one (I've been making a point of creating a driver profile for each person - just because - and it's sort of fun).

Anyway, people who've never driven an EV before are fine with the regen braking in miles / minutes - 15 max - and they're busy being wowed by everything else going on in the car. The regen braking is like noise on the cool factor (or it'd be max cool if it was the only cool thing ).

It's as if the Porsche development team hasn't, every single one of them, driven a Model S for at least an hour. Or worse, they've made a point of avoiding polluting their development efforts by considering the production capabilities of what else is out there.


I really, really want Porsche to come up with serious competition. I personally am a die-hard Tesla owner, but I know people that consider Porsche to be their be-all / end-all of performance; so great, get them a Porsche EV.

Face it - I want Porsche to build an EV in all of their different segments that's good enough to put their gas engine business, out of business. If only they had the guts to do that.

 

[MC3OZ]

I read articles like this, and I keep hoping for serious competition. And then I keep finding stuff like the default is no regeneration, or it's on the brake pedal and the author's comment that it's as if Porsche doesn't trust their driver's pedal control. I've had so many people drive my Model X, I have to delete driver profiles now to add the next one (I've been making a point of creating a driver profile for each person - just because - and it's sort of fun).

Anyway, people who've never driven an EV before are fine with the regen braking in miles / minutes - 15 max - and they're busy being wowed by everything else going on in the car. The regen braking is like noise on the cool factor (or it'd be max cool if it was the only cool thing ).

It's as if the Porsche development team hasn't, every single one of them, driven a Model S for at least an hour. Or worse, they've made a point of avoiding polluting their development efforts by considering the production capabilities of what else is out there.


I really, really want Porsche to come up with serious competition. I personally am a die-hard Tesla owner, but I know people that consider Porsche to be their be-all / end-all of performance; so great, get them a Porsche EV.

Face it - I want Porsche to build an EV in all of their different segments that's good enough to put their gas engine business, out of business. If only they had the guts to do that.

I'm also hoping for serious competition and realising more and more that it will be slow to arrive.

The Taycan is the car I had the most hope for,,,

This particular feature is at least different, and will possibly appeal to some drivers, perhaps the logic is Porsche drivers will find the car drives more like a Porsche.

As things stand there is a big opportunity for Tesla to grab more market share, other car makers are struggling to make compelling EVs in volume and at best, some car makers may be able to prevent some of their existing customers buying a Tesla, by convincing them to buy their new EV instead.

So far no one has produced an EV compelling enough to covert Tesla customers to a new brand... Some buyers may move just for something different, a better service experience, or a better interior... but to do that they need to give up range, supercharging and usually acceleration, that is a lot to lose for minimal gain.

 

[liuping]

LOL! If you can't convince those people now, using actual facts, that currrent BEV's are less polluting over their useful lifetime than an equivalent gas vehicle (by far), why do you think improvements in battery technology will allow you to convince them it's any different?

People that are not interested in the facts are not all of a sudden going to "see the light".

The problem is that even well written reports currently show EVs charged in "coal country" to be not much better than a hybrid or an efficient ICE car. Most of that is due to the upfront CO2 cost during production. Bringing that down eliminates the last bits of the "EV are not really better for the environment" argument.

 

[RobStark]

See the electric performance game is played in efficiency. Tesla can beat the Taycan very easily just by scaling up their batteries by 25% because it's so efficient to begin with. With efficiency comes weight reduction, range, and power. So until Porsche takes the efficiency king, running around in a circle doesn't matter.

The equivalent to this is Instructions Per Clock on a CPU. Yeah you can use way more power and produce more heat and brute force your way up to beating another CPU with better IPC, but the other CPU can just clock a little higher and win. So performance wise you technically have lost.

What matters is performance on the road.

For stock vehicles as sold by Porsche and Tesla, not highly modified or race cars.

Not theoretical cars they might build.

 

[ggr]

I read articles like this, and I keep hoping for serious competition. And then I keep finding stuff like the default is no regeneration, or it's on the brake pedal and the author's comment that it's as if Porsche doesn't trust their driver's pedal control. I've had so many people drive my Model X, I have to delete driver profiles now to add the next one (I've been making a point of creating a driver profile for each person - just because - and it's sort of fun).

Anyway, people who've never driven an EV before are fine with the regen braking in miles / minutes - 15 max - and they're busy being wowed by everything else going on in the car. The regen braking is like noise on the cool factor (or it'd be max cool if it was the only cool thing ).

It's as if the Porsche development team hasn't, every single one of them, driven a Model S for at least an hour. Or worse, they've made a point of avoiding polluting their development efforts by considering the production capabilities of what else is out there.


I really, really want Porsche to come up with serious competition. I personally am a die-hard Tesla owner, but I know people that consider Porsche to be their be-all / end-all of performance; so great, get them a Porsche EV.

Face it - I want Porsche to build an EV in all of their different segments that's good enough to put their gas engine business, out of business. If only they had the guts to do that.

I am reminded that before the Model S came out, there were long discussions here about regen settings, with a few dozen Roadster owners saying "it's fantastic", and lots of people thinking about the Model S saying that they didn't know how they'd ever adjust, and how coasting is better, and all the same things that Porsche is saying. Enough that Tesla made regen an option on the S. At least the delivery people make a point of telling new owners to at least try regen for a day before turning it off.

 

[RobStark]

The Taycan is for the EV-curious Porsche buyer to keep them from looking at a real EV.

AFAICT it gives no EV benefit at all -- they even added fake engine noise. Maybe they added regen activation on the brake pedal, but at this point I wouldn't expect it without a clear statement from Porsche.

Fake noises of some kind will be required for BEVs by both the US and EU.

Porsche Taycan electric sports car hits 30,000 customer reservations

Porsche Claims Tesla Owners Are Leading A Taycan Sales Stampede | CleanTechnica

 

[Prunesquallor]

Fake noises of some kind will be required for BEVs by both the US and EU.

Porsche Taycan electric sports car hits 30,000 customer reservations

Porsche Claims Tesla Owners Are Leading A Taycan Sales Stampede | CleanTechnica

Sounds like a lot of fake noises from Klaus Zellmer.