Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
We can only guess how much covering happened in the first 7 trading days of the year, thanks to opaque market disclosures. Some of the reported short position next release will be newly paced bets that Tesla's Q4 results couldn't be very good (since they must have massaged the books to get such good results in Q3 :rolleyes:).

But my guess is we will see another wave of short-covering next week before Q4 financials are announced as well as a flood of new positions of long-term investors who want in before Q4 results. That should take us over $500 easily. I'm hoping Q4 results and forward guidance will be positive enough to hold the $500's with Musk's newfound credibility. The lack of demand thesis has been blown out of the water - people are chomping at the bit to get their hands on one of these amazing machines that are cheap to fuel and as maintenance-free as they come while providing an unmatched driving experience while having zero tailpipe emissions.

From there, the new trading range will depend upon Tesla's execution releasing Model Y, manufacturing existing models and turning G4 into a functioning factory with possible upside due to energy storage and maybe solar which is not really being counted yet in any significant fashion. I hate to say this but I'm not very bullish on solar tiles in 2020. I hope they prove me wrong. Battery developments/announcements could be a positive catalyst.

Congrats to all longs for a great 2019 (I bet last June you didn't think you would be hearing that!) and a strong start to 2020.:)

Smart shorts would start covering this Monday, after seeing wait times for US deliveries increasing so much. The smart ones would realize that their hope for a sh*show of a q1 is unraveling right before their eyes.
 
We can only guess how much covering happened in the first 7 trading days of the year, thanks to opaque market disclosures. Some of the reported short position next release will be newly paced bets that Tesla's Q4 results couldn't be very good (since they must have massaged the books to get such good results in Q3 :rolleyes:).

But my guess is we will see another wave of short-covering next week before Q4 financials are announced as well as a flood of new positions of long-term investors who want in before Q4 results. That should take us over $500 easily. I'm hoping Q4 results and forward guidance will be positive enough to hold the $500's with Musk's newfound credibility. The lack of demand thesis has been blown out of the water - people are chomping at the bit to get their hands on one of these amazing machines that are cheap to fuel and as maintenance-free as they come while providing an unmatched driving experience while having zero tailpipe emissions.

From there, the new trading range will depend upon Tesla's execution releasing Model Y, manufacturing existing models and turning G4 into a functioning factory with possible upside due to energy storage and maybe solar which is not really being counted yet in any significant fashion. I hate to say this but I'm not very bullish on solar tiles in 2020. I hope they prove me wrong. Battery developments/announcements could be a positive catalyst.

Congrats to all longs for a great 2019 (I bet last June you didn't think you would be hearing that!) and a strong start to 2020.:)
While I have 0 insight, I have similar premonitions, so was buying some 6/22 calls on the hopes the run would continue and I can sell 1/22 calls for the 6/22 prices to roll them forward.

I keep my shares and hope to leave them untouched for a few years in a trading account. As I replied to @Hock1 , I keep my IRA @100% shares and do not risk those. The calls are purely for gambling on the CT; If I can get it for free without selling shares, I'm good. I'm not as bold as to trying to match @3lon4mars performance, but hoping that over 2 years my "borrowed money" calls can outperform shares.
If not, I may end up selling some shares and cancelling CT, which is really totally unnecessary. It'd be a bonus if the gamble pays out.
 
Last edited:
There are lots of unknowns,
  • when FSD will be approved in various jurisdictions,
  • the global market for Robo-taxis
  • and the residual market for private cars....

Tesla is still planning to make 20 Million vehicles per year at some stage...

My hunch is the FSD software will be expensive, but if the car is in the Tesla Network, a private buyer may be able to progressively pay that off in say monthly instalments..
All I'm saying is customers (or other companies / fleets) won't be able to cheaply buy Tesla cars + FSD software and make a ton of money. Tesla won't allow such arbitrage to happen or there will be years worth of waiting list to buy cars.
 
There's only about 181 million shares floating right now? So more than half the entire float was turned over this week. That's what I call an actively traded stock...

Also note that Shorted shares count in that. Considering short interests (packets) are over 50%, I'd say it is rather relevant. If a short borrowed shares and sold them then bought them back and returned them... well that is two trades for one non-existent share.
 
  • Like
Reactions: humbaba
Today's VWAP was $478.96 on 13,103,994 shares for $6,276,345,352.83 in trade$.

Pre-market volume was 352,834 shrs, including 184,161 shares traded b4 08:00 hrs.
After-hrs volume was 239,025 shares, including 131,251 shares traded at 16:02 hrs.

Does anybody know of any source (URL?) where once can see historical charts using VWAP instead of closing price ? VWAP seems to me a much more meaningful measure of value of a stock on a given day rather than the arbitrary value of the last trade of the day.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Prime_Number
Caveat: they still may not be doing exactly this. That form says they’ll also charge for AC/etc usage when charging, but there are also charging losses both inside the charger and the car that don’t go towards anything user-facing and could still not be included.

True, but the fact they list 10-25 kWh as a range of possible increased charges per session makes me think losses are included now.

25 kWh would be insane for HVAC for a Supercharger session. That's at least 20 kW constant HVAC load for the whole session if that's all that formed the delta. Seems too high to me, as at home preconditioning never uses even half that much power when maxed out, and drops quickly.

Even accounting for SC HVAC needing more power and for longer periods, that seems extreme. TeslaFi tells me that typical SC charge efficiency is ~90%. For a high-end 90 kWh SC session, 9 kWh in losses plus another 10-15 for HVAC seems more likely to me to explain the delta as described in the service bulletin.

But now we're way tangential to the investor-related piece, which is that Tesla is simply tightening up another cost control item that makes total sense to tighten.
 
I talked to them about that... asked ‘em if they saw the day coming where the cars would drive themselves off the trucks, park themselves, wait, and then form a line and drive themselves over to the ship, up the ramp, and onwards to a designated spot on some deck of the ship. Maybe with on-board mobile robots (think: Boston Dynamics “dog” bots... creepy) to do the final lashing to strap down the cars for the voyage. My host laughed, acknowledged it had come up in conversations about the future, but the feeling is, “very unlikely.” A LOT can and will go wrong during this work. And I agree with the workers on this. There are a lot of little decisions to make, and it takes an experienced, coordinated crew to keep the operations moving at a crisp pace. Often something comes up suddenly requiring moving cars around after they’ve been put in place on a deck, etc. Complex operation. Hey anything is possible in the future but I think at least for a long time to come this kind of work will best be left to humans to do and not timid, hesitant robo-cars.
I watched an interesting video on YouTube the other day about this - it’s a lot more complicated than I thought! They’re loading “alternate brands” in Europe & not Teslas, but some might find it interesting...

 
All I'm saying is customers (or other companies / fleets) won't be able to cheaply buy Tesla cars + FSD software and make a ton of money. Tesla won't allow such arbitrage to happen or there will be years worth of waiting list to buy cars.

Do you think this is where the second reservation for Model 3 will come in handy?
So far they are happy to leave it on the books
 
  • Disagree
Reactions: kyne
True, but the fact they list 10-25 kWh as a range of possible increased charges per session makes me think losses are included now.

25 kWh would be insane for HVAC for a Supercharger session. That's at least 20 kW constant HVAC load for the whole session if that's all that formed the delta. Seems too high to me, as at home preconditioning never uses even half that much power when maxed out, and drops quickly.

Even accounting for SC HVAC needing more power and for longer periods, that seems extreme. TeslaFi tells me that typical SC charge efficiency is ~90%. For a high-end 90 kWh SC session, 9 kWh in losses plus another 10-15 for HVAC seems more likely to me to explain the delta as described in the service bulletin.

But now we're way tangential to the investor-related piece, which is that Tesla is simply tightening up another cost control item that makes total sense to tighten.
It is all going to depend on which car and where. If I am charging at a supercharger on a really hot day in Arizona, I am using power to cool the battery pack and the cabin by me preset. There are times my older Model S without the super bottle had the heat running to heat my cabin on a cool day and the cooling for the pack running to cool the battery while supercharge. Efficiency is not always equal.
 
  • Like
Reactions: lklundin and Zaxxon
New permits

Project Description:
Installation of Automatic Inspection at North Paint, Tesla Project Number F19-0078.
Project Description:
F19-0130 - South Paint Drop Lifter. Mechanical, Electrical and Fire Protection are deferred submittals.

This confirms what I always expected, with Model Y production, 2 paint shops will be operating., that might not be a surprise but it is good to have it officially confirmed.
 
So they think they will deliver mostly to EU and ROW in the first 2 months.

I've to say if they manage to deliver > 100k cars in Q1, shorts will be absolutely squeezed.

If I had to guess whether Q1'20 will have more or less deliveries than Q4'19, I'd guess more, but I think it will be very close.

If I remember correctly, vehicles were sold out for 2019 quite early in a lot of markets (including US), so they should have a decent order backlog going into 2020. Order backlog also increased in both Q2 and Q3, and at the time of the Q3 call the order rate in Q4 was higher than at the same time in Q3. We don't have exact numbers here, and we don't know for sure what happened to the order backlog in Q4, but considering how many cars went to The Netherlands, I wouldn't be surprised if the total order backlog was still significant at the end of Q4.

Most importantly, I think Q1'19 is still too fresh in people's minds and everybody is too influenced by that. It was an extremely weird quarter where so many things happened:
  • A huge cut in the US federal tax credit
  • A lot of bad press and dropping SP
  • A transitionary period from US M3 reservations to generating US organic demand. Q4'18 US M3 sales numbers were super bloated because of reservations.
  • Start of international deliveries that caused huge logistics challenges
If one looks at other years, there were years with somewhat large drops like Q1'18 where S+X deliveries dropped by 23% (28,425 -> 21,815), but also an increase in deliveries in Q1'17 (22,026 -> 25,915) due to the missed shipping deadlines in Q4'16 that resulted from introducing new autopilot hardware.

I don't think a whole lot can be learned about Q1 seasonality by studying Q1'19, because it was just too unusual, but judging from Q1'18 and Q1'17, I think a lot (maybe most) of the drop in deliveries can be attributed simply to selling inventory in Q4, and replenishing inventory in Q1. Tesla actually produced more S+X in Q1'18 (24,728) than in Q4'17 (22,140), so in that specific year it was 100% due to changes in inventory.

We can of course expect Tesla to replenish inventory in Q1'20 as well, but apart from that I think they should be able to deliver nearly as many M3 as they can make. Order backlog and demand appear very strong, because they just increased prices for M3 twice in Q4'19, and I think the only market that is probably going to see a significant (temporary) sequential decrease in M3 demand is The Netherlands, although even there the tax credit is still significant. The "bijtelling" tax may have gone up from 4% to 8% for EVs, but it's 22% for normal cars, so the incentive is still very large.

Even if we assume a 23% drop in both MS+X and M3 deliveries like Q1'18 (but I expect M3 to be a lot less, because inventory replenishment should be less as a % of total sales), that'd leave us with ~15k MS+X deliveries and about 71k M3 deliveries, for a total of 86k non-Giga 3 deliveries in Q1'20. But I think Tesla could surprise here because order backlog and demand appears to be very strong right now (price increases, and no discounting/incentives at all at end of last two quarters).

That just leaves Giga 3. I think we've seen enough signs that demand is going to be no problem. They should already have an order backlog into the tens of thousands. So that just leaves production. They've demonstrated production capability of 3k/week, although I doubt they'll sustain that throughout the quarter. They could, but I wouldn't count on it. I think it could be anywhere from 15k to 35k total in Q1 from Giga 3, so even on the very low end I'd expect at least 100k total deliveries in Q1'20. On the high end, I could see them maybe doing 120-125k total deliveries in Q1'20. All in all, I think 110k is a pretty good over-under for Q1'20 deliveries.

Yes, RoW will drop a bit, but Giga 3 should (more than) make up for that in my opinion.
 
If I had to guess whether Q1'20 will have more or less deliveries than Q4'19, I'd guess more, but I think it will be very close.

If I remember correctly, vehicles were sold out for 2019 quite early in a lot of markets (including US), so they should have a decent order backlog going into 2020. Order backlog also increased in both Q2 and Q3, and at the time of the Q3 call the order rate in Q4 was higher than at the same time in Q3. We don't have exact numbers here, and we don't know for sure what happened to the order backlog in Q4, but considering how many cars went to The Netherlands, I wouldn't be surprised if the total order backlog was still significant at the end of Q4.

Most importantly, I think Q1'19 is still too fresh in people's minds and everybody is too influenced by that. It was an extremely weird quarter where so many things happened:
  • A huge cut in the US federal tax credit
  • A lot of bad press and dropping SP
  • A transitionary period from US M3 reservations to generating US organic demand. Q4'18 US M3 sales numbers were super bloated because of reservations.
  • Start of international deliveries that caused huge logistics challenges
If one looks at other years, there were years with somewhat large drops like Q1'18 where S+X deliveries dropped by 23% (28,425 -> 21,815), but also an increase in deliveries in Q1'17 (22,026 -> 25,915) due to the missed shipping deadlines in Q4'16 that resulted from introducing new autopilot hardware.

I don't think a whole lot can be learned about Q1 seasonality by studying Q1'19, because it was just too unusual, but judging from Q1'18 and Q1'17, I think a lot (maybe most) of the drop in deliveries can be attributed simply to selling inventory in Q4, and replenishing inventory in Q1. Tesla actually produced more S+X in Q1'18 (24,728) than in Q4'17 (22,140), so in that specific year it was 100% due to changes in inventory.

We can of course expect Tesla to replenish inventory in Q1'20 as well, but apart from that I think they should be able to deliver nearly as many M3 as they can make. Order backlog and demand appear very strong, because they just increased prices for M3 twice in Q4'19, and I think the only market that is probably going to see a significant (temporary) sequential decrease in M3 demand is The Netherlands, although even there the tax credit is still significant. The "bijtelling" tax may have gone up from 4% to 8% for EVs, but it's 22% for normal cars, so the incentive is still very large.

Even if we assume a 23% drop in both MS+X and M3 deliveries like Q1'18 (but I expect M3 to be a lot less, because inventory replenishment should be less as a % of total sales), that'd leave us with ~15k MS+X deliveries and about 71k M3 deliveries, for a total of 86k non-Giga 3 deliveries in Q1'20. But I think Tesla could surprise here because order backlog and demand appears to be very strong right now (price increases, and no discounting/incentives at all at end of last two quarters).

That just leaves Giga 3. I think we've seen enough signs that demand is going to be no problem. They should already have an order backlog into the tens of thousands. So that just leaves production. They've demonstrated production capability of 3k/week, although I doubt they'll sustain that throughout the quarter. They could, but I wouldn't count on it. I think it could be anywhere from 15k to 35k total in Q1 from Giga 3, so even on the very low end I'd expect at least 100k total deliveries in Q1'20. On the high end, I could see them maybe doing 120-125k total deliveries in Q1'20. All in all, I think 110k is a pretty good over-under for Q1'20 deliveries.

Yes, RoW will drop a bit, but Giga 3 should (more than) make up for that in my opinion.

Something else I haven’t seen mentioned yet: no US price drop post tax credit expiration. :cool: When did it happen in Q1 last year?
 
Middle of first month is usually when it happens

No the one that happened last January was on Jan 2nd. It doesn't seem like they're going to drop prices anymore.

Why would they send that email to people that were going to miss the delivery deadline that they either had the option to pick up their car in Jan at full price or cancel their order??? It would make zero sense to tell customers that, and then drop the price o_O