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Yeah, I think your analysis isn't very quantitative. Let's consider the following case where Tesla drops Model 3 prices by 2% and increases production by 4%:
  • Given Model 3 numbers from Q1/20:
    • ASP: $51k
    • Gross Margin: 22%
    • Production: 7K/wk
    • that implies $39.8 COGS per unit
    • est'd 50% COGS as labor ($19.9k fixed expense)
  • Now increase Model 3 production to 7,280 per week (4%)
    • ASP: $49K
    • Fixed labor cost decreases to $18.5k / unit
    • COGS -$1,400 per Unit just due to labor productivity
    • also decrease cost of Capital Equip. at higher run rate
It doesn't take long to realise that decreasing Model 3 ASP by $2k (~2%) and increasing production by 4% is both revenue and gross margin neutral, and all this a consequence of simply increasing production by about 2 cars per hour.

It's a common planning figure in the industry that dropping prices 2% will increase sales by 4%. By walking down the ASP, Tesla is moving into Toyota territory, where the market is far larger. Tesla's backlog of orders grew in Q1. I believe their bottleneck will continue to be the ability to physically deliver their product fast enough. Korean and Taiwan will help this Quarter.

IMHO, shortzes are walking into it again. :p

Cheers!

What do you base the 50% of COGS being labor costs on? Is there info on this in the 10-Q or 10-K? That seems way too high.

Also, I don't think M3 margins are 22%, probably more like 19%, maybe 20%, but that doesn't impact your math much.

And $2k is a 4% price reduction, so it would lead to an 8% increase in demand according to that industry rule.

Your overall point stands though, although the increase in production and cost savings come from the MY ramp imo. Sandy mentioned that he believes the MY is cheaper to produce than the M3, in part thanks to the larger economies of scale of parts shared with the M3. These economies of scale will also help the M3.
 
Utter rubbish epidemiology


Elon's track record:
1) phenomenal cars (we own 2), likely equally phenomenal semi and Roadster 2
2) great home and residential solar systems (again we own two of those also) - #1 and #2 are major sign posts on the road to sustainable energy and transportation infrastructure
3) phenomenal SpaceX rocket company about to make history once again
4) solid plan for reopening of Tesla factories with covid-19 safety
5) lousy epidemiologist/ infectious disease specialist

Nobody's perfect, and four out of five ain't bad, but I'm disappointed that Elon has resorted to what are essentially conspiracy-theory level dismissals of the standard epidemiologic and biological science paradoxically the same kind of crap that he's had to confront for years in his attempts to build a sustainable transportation and energy infrastructure ( that climate change is fake news, fake science, part of the deep state conspiracy, etc etc).

Billionaire Tech Geniuses don't like being told what they can't do so I understand his irritation, but I do not understand his departure from the science. Anybody that says that the IFR for covid-19 is the same as the flu simply doesn't know what they're talking about. That's not even debatable unless you're willing to entertain cooked statistics of the kind that the discredited Santa Clara antibody study generated. Outside of those fringe conspiracy-theory-like outliers, IFR is many times more serious than the flu. I love Elon, we love his cars, and Tesla products across the board, and we love what he's trying to do, but this one is disappointing.

PS for those convinced by the nonsense epidemiology quoted by Horowitz, please Google medcram covid-19 and look at the talks by a senior physician on the biology of covid-19 infection and how it's substantially differs from the biology of influenza infection. This includes lung and other tissue histopathology that shows why this disease is significantly more fatal. It takes a destructive commitment to polarisation to believe that this fundamental biological science is cooked up, or part of some kind of conspiracy to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.

Elon is just using an anecdote to formulate his answer since the jury on a lot of this is still out. Granted his anecdote consist of 48k employees around the globe and 10s of thousands of additional people who are his supply chain, most of them from ground zero whose government is supposedly hiding real numbers.
 
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Utter rubbish epidemiology


Elon's track record:
1) phenomenal cars (we own 2), likely equally phenomenal semi and Roadster 2
2) great home and residential solar systems (again we own two of those also) - #1 and #2 are major sign posts on the road to sustainable energy and transportation infrastructure
3) phenomenal SpaceX rocket company about to make history once again
4) solid plan for reopening of Tesla factories with covid-19 safety
5) lousy epidemiologist/ infectious disease specialist

Nobody's perfect, and four out of five ain't bad, but I'm disappointed that Elon has resorted to what are essentially conspiracy-theory level dismissals of the standard epidemiologic and biological science paradoxically the same kind of crap that he's had to confront for years in his attempts to build a sustainable transportation and energy infrastructure (that climate change is fake news, fake science, part of the deep state conspiracy, etc etc).

Billionaire Tech Geniuses don't like being told what they can't do so I understand his irritation, but I do not understand his departure from the science. Anybody that says that the IFR for covid-19 is the same as the flu simply doesn't know what they're talking about. That's not even debatable unless you're willing to entertain cooked statistics of the kind that the discredited Santa Clara antibody study generated. Outside of those fringe conspiracy-theory-like outliers, IFR is many times more serious than the flu. I love Elon, we love his cars, and Tesla products across the board, and we love what he's trying to do, but this one is disappointing.

PS for those convinced by the nonsense epidemiology quoted by Horowitz, please Google medcram covid-19 and look at the talks by a senior physician on the biology of covid-19 infection and how it's substantially differs from the biology of influenza infection. This includes lung and other tissue histopathology that shows why this disease is significantly more fatal. It takes a destructive commitment to polarisation and a certain level of real craziness to believe that this fundamental biological science is cooked up, or part of some kind of conspiracy to pull the wool over everybody's eyes.
You have absolutely no idea what the true IFR range is. Back to the Coronavirus thread with you!
 
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My sister lives in the Bay Area (Riverside Contra Costa County). She and her whole family got tested last week because a free drive-thru testing site opened near her house. More testing = more cases.

Edit: Corrected the county name.
 
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Kindly next time try to refute the statement that I have actually made instead of making up one that I did not.

Plenty of sources for the CATL Tesla battery deals with low energy density batteries for standard range. Tesla has already applied to Chinese authorities to sell these. Google is your friend. Cheers.
Tesla seeks China nod to build Model 3 vehicles with LFP batteries -ministry

You replied to a comment about GF1 by saying Tesla should consider lower quality cells to allow increased production. That means Fremont. :rolleyes:

The info you provide above is from those 'low-information' reporters at Reuters. I'm simply saying they're full of *sugar*, that's all. It won't be long until we know for sure. I'll wait. ;)

CATL is rumored to have co-developed 'cell-to-pack' battery architecture with Tesla in China. But instead, Reuters assumes LFP prismatic cells because that's all they can understand. Not a good look.

Cheers!
 
It is a 4% drop in margins compared to not reducing the price by $2k, but of course many other factors will influence QoQ margins of the M3 and overall business. It doesn't equate to a 4% drop in Tesla's overall margin.

I'm not so sure about price drops usually being in response to a drop in production costs. Q1'19 definitely was in response to the tax credit change, and Q3'19's cost reductions sparked price increases, not decreases.

Another theory I have is that it might be a worldwide price reduction, but it's mainly to stimulate demand in the US during Q2. Late May and June production usually goes entirely to NA, because cars can no longer be shipped and delivered overseas before EoQ. Undoubtedly orders during April and early May were much lower than normal, so it seems only natural that in Q2 there haven't been enough orders to allocate all production from late May onward to NA. Perhaps the price reduction is mainly to stimulate NA demand during the next couple of weeks, and price reductions overseas are only to stay in line with the motto of no discounts.

Of course cost reductions and/or some battery improvements could also be the reason, or a part of the reason.

But don't worry, a lot more would have to happen for me to be worried about Tesla :)

I think your thesis is correct. Tesla has a demand problem - for M3/SX in NA in Q2.

Despite Tesla maintaining Y wouldn't cannibalize 3 sales, and many others arguing similar, it most certainly will. In fact, I think it will cannibalize sales of SX as well. The Y was incredible value at $4k more (now $6k more) than the 3. It solves many of the complaints 3 owners have had re: trunk access and cargo space. The 3 hasn't sold well because it's a small sedan, but in spite of it. Larger auto trends point to a dying out of that segment. I don't believe the 3 changed that. It's sold incredibly well because it has been the only option for a desirable, high performing electric car, at a reasonable price. The Y is all those things but more with few disadvantages. Furthermore, the Y will also cannibalize sales of the SX. I think some segment of S buyers would have preferred a 3 but found it too small (and had the money to pay up). A similar argument will be made for choosing the Y over the X, especially since second row leg room is almost identical between the two. If you don't want all the bells and whistles of the X, the Y again is great value. I don't think Tesla was so naive to not see this coming (pre-COVID) and planned to manage it by limiting the availability of the Y outside of North America. If buyers didn't know when the Y would be available in their region, they could keep up global sales of 3/S/X. By keeping an eye on demand, Tesla could continue to expand Y production with both new lines and the conversion of 3 lines that were no longer needed as GigaShanghai meets the 3 demand of the Chinese market. The 3 remains a sedan and it, like the SX, will eventually reach a point where its demand is no longer growing. I assume we're still a ways off globally for that, but given the current adoption rate of EV's in general, I wouldn't be surprised if they were bumping up against that limit in North America already, at least for the time being. (Of course, this isn't a steady-state situation and Tesla can turn the demand lever for North American sales by cutting prices, like yesterday.) Tesla had a strategy to manage this cannibalization, then COVID hit.

Non-Asian global demand for 3/S/X has been hammered in Q2. On top of that, every day that the Fremont shutdown was extended was a lost day of shipping those models to EU/Asia. The last I read, it seemed as though maybe only a single RORO would make it to Europe and perhaps two to Asia before Q2 closes? Now, the remaining 5 weeks of production in the Q will be stranded in NA. With demand for the models Tesla is not production constrained on struggling, they were forced to cut prices to boost deliveries for this quarter. What other option did they have? For these reasons, unless China numbers for MIC 3 are incredible May/June, the 75k - 90k deliveries many are projecting is going to be nearly impossible to hit.

Tesla obviously saw this coming as Fremont's reopening was delayed and Elon grew increasingly frustrated by the disastrous consequences it (plus supplier disruptions) would have on Tesla's Q2 deliveries. I still believe this drove his comments on COVID/twitter rants/reopening without approval.

In conclusion, yes, Tesla has a demand problem - for 3/S/X in North America this Q. Demand for Y is astronomical, MIC 3, specifically the LR is solid, and the backlog on the Cybertruck won't be met for a long, long time. However, those aren't the vehicles up for sale over the next 5 weeks out of Fremont.

The question remains, if Tesla reports <60 - 70k deliveries this Q, will the market forgive them and the SP hold or will there be a buying opportunity?
 
What do you base the 50% of COGS being labor costs on? Is there info on this in the 10-Q or 10-K? That seems way too high.
Sandy Munro, in his appearance on Autoline Afterhours, after his 2nd Model 3 teardown. This is also the main reason Sandy believes Model 3 COGS at GF3/Shanghai will be far less than at Fremont.

Cheers!
 
You replied to a comment about GF1 by saying Tesla should consider lower quality cells to allow increased production. That means Fremont. :rolleyes:

The info you provide above is from those 'low-information' reporters at Reuters. I'm simply saying they're full of *sugar*, that's all. It won't be long until we know for sure. I'll wait. ;)

CATL is rumored to have co-developed 'cell-to-pack' battery architecture with Tesla in China. But instead, Reuters assumes LFP prismatic cells because that's all they can understand. Not a good look.

Cheers!
Dear Artful Dodger,

I do enjoy and learn from your posts. But..
You repeatedly get into arguments where you are both dead wrong and rude. And as usual, you conclude your post with "Cheers".
We all work with incomplete set of informations and we are wrong sometimes. Healthy discussions about different opinions are good.

I obviously never have said anything about lower quality cells. You simply made that up. I said "cheap" and I am sorry that is not the same thing. Why are you making things up that you can argue with?

The information is not from Reuters only. The application for using these batteries is available on the website of the Chinese Ministry. I am sorry, but this is not speculation. It is a fact. CATL boss also gave an interview in Chinese media (sorry. I have no link handy.) and he disclosed that they have an agreement to produce batteries using tech from both companies until the end June 2021. The agreement ends there because Tesla wants to produce its own batteries after that. There is a hint that CATL might supply Tesla outside of China as well.
(Now this seems to involve substantial investment from CATL for a short term contract plus this indicate massive technology sharing by the companies. That raises a lot of questions we can speculate on.)
You would really get a brownie point if collected all your strength and admitted you have made one incorrect statement here. I am not holding my breath. Otherwise, I am looking forward of continue reading valuable informations from you.
 
Another Tesla Y review from MotorTrend. This time the Performance version geared to us car guys.

https://www.motortrend.com/news/2020-tesla-model-y-performance-first-drive-review/

"Dear Teslarati: If you're looking for a 2020 Tesla Model Y review that focuses on its range, charging rate, battery capacity, or Autopilot with Traffic Light and Stop Sign Control, this isn't it. Our Model Y Long Range review is more than likely your bag.

If you can't be bothered with simple math, would rather drive fast instead of letting a computer ease you along, and don't care about battery size, then stick with me. Let's together ignore the politics of Elon Musk, "alternative" energy, and the hidden meaning of X Æ A-12, and instead focus on one thing: Regardless of propulsion fuel, how does the Model Y Performance edition's setup function as a luxury-performance SUV?

Quite good, as it turns out—the new Model Y Performance is probably the most convincing American sport luxury SUV I've driven in, well, ever."
 
According to this article [German], Tesla is planning to employ about 2000 people in it's planned R&D center in Berlin, which is going to be located in the EUREF business park, specifically in the Gasometer. Converting the gasholder to office spaces will take about 3 years, according to the article, with Tesla being one of two potential tenants.

A sign of the times....the future is now. An EV company going into a "Gas"ometer building
 
In conclusion, yes, Tesla has a demand problem - for 3/S/X in North America this Q. Demand for Y is astronomical, MIC 3, specifically the LR is solid, and the backlog on the Cybertruck won't be met for a long, long time. However, those aren't the vehicles up for sale over the next 5 weeks out of Fremont

Agree with your comments entirely. Demand is not a universal constant. It's a certain number based on a price at a time in a location and the prevailing economic conditions.

Tesla clearly would not be dropping prices if there wasn't a short term demand issue while their margins are below their long term target.

@Krugerrand dust off the ole' wallet.
 
Agree with your comments entirely. Demand is not a universal constant. It's a certain number based on a price at a time in a location and the prevailing economic conditions.

Tesla clearly would not be dropping prices if there wasn't a short term demand issue while their margins are below their long term target.

@Krugerrand dust off the ole' wallet.
There's demand management and then there's a demand problem. Tesla is clearly doing the former, but I don't think there's the latter.