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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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(first post here, but believe me, I've read all 1633 pages of this thread)

Lets put on pragmatic hat and imagine what could be plausible scenario for this event.
1. Some kind of spike is largely anticipated, a blast to 350-ish (as it did in October, journey to 250s reverted back to 350 in just 3 days)
2. Exact ruling will not be known till at least couple more weeks after the hearing.
3. We will get reports on how did the speeches go no earlier than 4:30pm EST (otherwise SEC will have to open new case on itself, judge Nathan and mr.Hueston)

What else do we know: $TSLA is a wallstreet favourite volatility machine, designed to make sickening flights. Especially when the chaotic movements are amplified by FUD campaign, or downgrading, or else. No naive 5% or even 10% stop loss can survive this and will be harvested.

So what I think, we gonna have slow growth to about 300 in next few days, which will be crowds of optimistic retail investors who already started buying the dip. During the Thursday April 4th speculations, theories and overall hysteria will reach its peak.

Evening April 4th we will get a tsunami of reports declaring SEC to win and Musk to fail, combined with tsunami of FUD publications thru cnbc, sickening alpha, BI and others, and friday April 5th will be the stop loss harvesting day, with prices plummeting to some horrible lows.

And only then the happy end - mid April:
- Alison Nathan releases her ruling in the way which saves Jay Clayton's face
- Musk will get very mild punishment and clearer definition of what sort of tweets is material and what is not
- Donnie gets his china deal finally signed and markets rally (that is said to be his major hope for 2020 elections)
- Institutions come back and not blocked by ongoing SEC case - $TSLA goes to the moon where next 2 years reciprocating cycle starts until modelY/semi/roadster rampening is finished.

Thoughts anyone?
I would agree with all of this in the short term. Your "to the moon" scenario I think will be different. I have thought a lot about this recently and I feel that the stock price will only really cut loose when two things happen. One...when true FSD Level 5 autonomy is reached and cleared by regulators and Two...when the personal energy products (solar roof tiles and panels) are fully ramped and available nation wide. I really think BOTH of these things are going to need to happen before we see anything above the $400 range.

I REALLY, REALLY hope I am wrong but I have come to have too much...respect is definitely not the word...confidence is maybe better, in the crooks of Wall Street (aka shorts and the like) ability to manipulate and spin any other accomplishments or achievements to their whims.

Because of this I don't see a true long lasting breakout for 5 years or so. That's why Tesla needs to keep focused on the long term plan, put on blinders and earplugs to all the BS, and just keep working.

Long term investors are going to have to do the same and those that have the patience and intestinal fortitude will be heavily rewarded. There will be plenty of carnage along the way though.

As always...just my thoughts and Lord knows ( as well as @Fact Checking , @KarenRei , etc.) that I am no expert by any stretch. lol!

Dan
 
Semi OT: German minister of finance (who is very powerful) wants to support EVs for another 10 years:

Finanzpolitik: Scholz will Elektroautos zehn Jahre länger fördern - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Wirtschaft

His point is an industrial/political move. He wants to see higher miles driven electric (probably talking about plug-in hybrids here). He wants the federal government to step in and support charging infrastructure. I guess he still wants a car industry in 10 years and I believe that we will see Germany finally converging to BEVs very soon. I hope this puts the hybrid, CNG and hydrogen nonsense to bed once and for all.

In other news Volkswagen & Amazon cooperate now:

Autoproduktion: Volkswagen verbündet sich offenbar mit Amazon - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Wirtschaft

Apparently VW wants to benefit from Amazon's software expertise & cloud offering to make their own factories more efficient and get them onto the same software platform. If that's just a software deal, I don't think it is much of interest. However, if this develops into an AI / self-driving / joint EV manufacturing deal, this could be interesting.
 
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I would agree with all of this in the short term. Your "to the moon" scenario I think will be different. I have thought a lot about this recently and I feel that the stock price will only really cut loose when two things happen. One...when true FSD Level 5 autonomy is reached and cleared by regulators and Two...when the personal energy products (solar roof tiles and panels) are fully ramped and available nation wide. I really think BOTH of these things are going to need to happen before we see anything above the $400 range.

I REALLY, REALLY hope I am wrong but I have come to have too much...respect is definitely not the word...confidence is maybe better, in the crooks of Wall Street (aka shorts and the like) ability to manipulate and spin any other accomplishments or achievements to their whims.

Because of this I don't see a true long lasting breakout for 5 years or so. That's why Tesla needs to keep focused on the long term plan, put on blinders and earplugs to all the BS, and just keep working.

Long term investors are going to have to do the same and those that have the patience and intestinal fortitude will be heavily rewarded. There will be plenty of carnage along the way though.

As always...just my thoughts and Lord knows ( as well as @Fact Checking , @KarenRei , etc.) that I am no expert by any stretch. lol!

Dan

Bottom line, we own a ‘share’ of Tesla, the company. Too many people are thinking of a share as an abstract concept, like a paper bank note, or a bitcoin. No, a company share is the same as a share of cake. It’s real. If the cake doubles, your share doubles.

Tesla doubles in size roughly every 18 months.

FUD can hold down the market price of a share for a time, but every quarter it gets harder for the FUDsters. It’s like trying to stop a dam burst.

I really don’t care what path the stock takes to $600, but it will get there. If it takes 24 months, it will be around 48 months to $1200.

Less talk about market price and more about revenue and CAGR might make the path to $600 less convoluted. A belief that FUD works is self fulfilling. I sometimes wonder if people focussed on the FUD are actually part of team FUD.
 
Not advisable, given the media circus that will form outside the court as he goes in and out. The media will give you the impression that there is a murder trial and Elon is guilty
Yes, I am worried that any mass presence by Tesla fans will only add to the "cult" status of supporters held by the media and general public. Just quietly let the judge make her ruling and then we all can talk about it here.

Dan
 
I would agree with all of this in the short term. Your "to the moon" scenario I think will be different. I have thought a lot about this recently and I feel that the stock price will only really cut loose when two things happen. One...when true FSD Level 5 autonomy is reached and cleared by regulators and Two...when the personal energy products (solar roof tiles and panels) are fully ramped and available nation wide. I really think BOTH of these things are going to need to happen before we see anything above the $400 range.

I REALLY, REALLY hope I am wrong but I have come to have too much...respect is definitely not the word...confidence is maybe better, in the crooks of Wall Street (aka shorts and the like) ability to manipulate and spin any other accomplishments or achievements to their whims.

Because of this I don't see a true long lasting breakout for 5 years or so. That's why Tesla needs to keep focused on the long term plan, put on blinders and earplugs to all the BS, and just keep working.

Long term investors are going to have to do the same and those that have the patience and intestinal fortitude will be heavily rewarded. There will be plenty of carnage along the way though.

As always...just my thoughts and Lord knows ( as well as @Fact Checking , @KarenRei , etc.) that I am no expert by any stretch. lol!

Dan

I think SEC resolution, S&P inclusion, and MXWL merger could send it over 400. Once institutional investors decide its safe to get back in it will happen fast. We were over 370 just based on 3Q18 profitability, before Model Y reveal, v3, MXWL or bond payment happened.
 
Semi OT: German minister of finance (who is very powerful) wants to support EVs for another 10 years:

Finanzpolitik: Scholz will Elektroautos zehn Jahre länger fördern - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Wirtschaft

His point is an industrial/political point. He wants to see higher miles driven electric (probably talking about plug-in hybrids here). He wants the federal government to step in and support charging infrastructure. I believe that we will see Germany finally converging to BEVs very soon. I hope this puts the hybrid, CNG and hydrogen nonsense to bed once and for all.

In other news Volkswagen & Amazon cooperate now:

Autoproduktion: Volkswagen verbündet sich offenbar mit Amazon - SPIEGEL ONLINE - Wirtschaft

Apparently VW wants to benefit from Amazon's software expertise & cloud offering to make their own factories more efficient and get them onto the same software platform. If that's just a software deal, I don't think it is much of interest. However, if this develops into an AI / self-driving / joint EV manufacturing deal, this could be interesting.

The devil is in the details.

The "FAZ" According to the SPD politician had met last week with VW boss Herbert Diess , after the group had called for a stronger promotion of electric mobility. As a replacement for the climate-damaging internal combustion engine, with which the manufacturers can no longer comply with their emission limits soon, Volkswagen relies solely on electric cars .

He referred to the costly investment decisions of the auto companies to reach EU emission levels for cars and trucks. "The state must accompany this with an expansion of the charging infrastructure and with tax incentives."


This is a Google translate and I might be missing some details, that can be only visible in the native German version. I also don't have any info in regards to domestic German politics. From the outsider perspective, the German politicians will play the fiddle, orchestrated by the German Auto conglomerate.
From TSLA's perspective, this is a clear sign, the Legacy automakers (especially the ones with portfolio of Diesel cars) can not transit to EVs without external help. TSLA's momentum is much more significant than many realize.
 
Yes, I am worried that any mass presence by Tesla fans will only add to the "cult" status of supporters held by the media and general public. Just quietly let the judge make her ruling and then we all can talk about it here.

Dan

Just be polite and follow the rules - if she or any courtroom official is asking for all electronic devices to be turned off then do so. Be quiet.

Federal judges absolutely appreciate the public showing respectful interest in court proceedings, they are public servants and think of themselves as such: Judge Nathan could earn 3x-10x her current income as a federal judge at a private law firm.

Any TMC member attending in person could report back here about details not caught in the transcripts. There always are such details to report. Bring paper and pencil to take notes.
 
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Nope. Have you ever seen racking for class A body panels? You can’t ‘stack’ body panels on themselves, you’d ruin the surface.

Then you’d have to make crating. Ever had to do crating for International across the ocean? The parts would have to be sealed, crates made, then those crates sealed. Um...no.

Send finished cars or nothing at all.
CKD has been used by Tesla and almost all major auto factories. Bulk parts shipments, including complex stamping, are part of every major manufacturer normal process also. Better to do it all in one place, sure, if all other things are equal, but they are not.
 
“Twitter is part of everyday business for many executives today,” Chairman Robyn Denholm said in an interview in Sydney on Wednesday. “From my perspective, he uses it wisely.”

“I don’t think he poses any challenges,” Denholm said. “The company is running very well and the board itself is very engaged. We meet with him all the time.”

Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
 
I can see that Tesla might send stamped parts to China to go through a body-in-white and paint shop before they get a press line installed. (Shipping stamped parts takes way less space than shipping bodies.)

I don't think they'll ship around stamped panels: to store them safely against damage is both a significant expense and decreases transportation density, which increases logistics costs.

Here's what Elon said about what will be made in the Shanghai Gigafactory, on the Q4 conference call 2 months ago:

Elon Musk:

"And earlier this month, we saw the construction of our Gigafactory in Shanghai, and by the end of this year, we expect to be producing Model 3s using a complete vehicle production line. That's body, paint, final assembly, general assembly and module production."

"So it basically would be - this will be extremely fast. I get like daily updates of progress of the Shanghai Gigafactory, and those factories are going to go up like lightning."​

Note that while he didn't mention press/stamp lines, he didn't mention injection molding lines either - those are naturally placed close to the body and final assembly lines. Completely-knocked-down-kits (CDK's) sometimes get shipped around the globe but are a major complication on the Fremont Model 3 production side which Tesla doesn't need.

Nor are stamps really expensive at the 3k/week rate they are targeting: I believe the main expense are the paint shop baths and booths, the robots of the chassis/body lines and the robots/stations of the general and final assembly line. I suspect they'll do a plastics shop too, with a lot of molding machines. Plus a new Grohmann Machine to make SR packs.

Big stamping machines may have long lead times - but that simply means that they have to sequence their orders properly for it all to arrive at the intended date. The dimensions and capacity should already be well specified at this stage, as the Model 3 and Model Y dimensions are already pinned down.

Do dies have long lead times, or is Tesla making those themselves?
Have I forgotten anything else?

Cell supply is the big question, IMHO.

Edit, Tesla mentioned stamp lines in the Q4 update letter:

"In the initial phase of Gigafactory Shanghai, we expect to have stamping, paint shop, body joining, and general assembly shops in operation by the end of 2019. This accelerated timeframe should be possible due to the radical simplification of our manufacturing layout and processes compared to our first-generation production line in Fremont. Higher-spec models such as our long-range all-wheel drive (AWD) and Performance versions will continue to be shipped to China from the US."​

I believe "general assembly shops" includes the plastic molding shop.

The only things missing from the China plan is:
  • Cell factory: This is probably still being negotiated, but I'd expect cells to be made at the Shanghai Gigafactory, in a similar construct to GF1.
  • Power-train factory: these are high density, low volume, small size components which are easy to export from the Gigafactory and might help them protect their EV IP.
  • Seat factory: which they have in Fremont and which is relatively easy to export as well, although it might make sense to move this to China next, as they are low density components which makes transportation more expensive, plus seats could probably be further simplified for the Chinese market to reduce ASP.
  • Glass factory: I think it's made in GF2 right now, and that's not necessarily easy to export. They might be outsourcing window production, and they might opt for a metal roof instead of the glass roof. This would also differentiate the Chinese versions from the import versions very clearly.
  • HW3 board factory: this too is probably better done in the U.S., although they might eventually bring this to China too.
 
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The devil is in the details. This is a Google translate and I might be missing some details, that can be only visible in the native German version. I also don't have any info in regards to domestic German politics. From the outsider perspective, the German politicians will play the fiddle, orchestrated by the German Auto conglomerate.
From TSLA's perspective, this is a clear sign, the Legacy automakers (especially the ones with portfolio of Diesel cars) can not transit to EVs without external help. TSLA's momentum is much more significant than many realize.

I concur with your observations - that's the reason I posted it here. There is a bonus for Tesla here: they will succeed, since the legacy car makers have not enough strength by themselves. (Also ref. the cooperation with Amazon which is more than just a supplier deal, the joint work of Ford & VW on some of their platforms etc.)
But there is a malus in there for Tesla, too: since German politicians see this as a matter of industry politics, they will quite happily do everything in their power to cut out Tesla, unless Tesla (somehow) becomes part of the German car maker circus... German institutions have a clear anti-Tesla bias and I fear this will increase.

If - despite all of this - Tesla should soar in Germany, I would see this as a very very very(!) strong move. I think Tesla had a strong showing in mind for Model S which didn't happen. February numbers for the Model 3 were positive, if March is even more positive, I think we might be able to shift the narrative.

Either way: we will see. I maintain my point, that Germany will remain difficult for Tesla (@avoigt might want to provide his more optimistic view of the situation).
 
I hope volatility next week will be kept in check. E*Trade just raised the margin requirement on TSLA today from 35% to 45%. It cannot go under $250 or I will get a margin call :(

Seems everyone is conspiring to go after the small retail investor who has been there from the beginning believing and supporting Tesla’s mission to save the planet...

Margin is dangerous. You're overleveraged IMHO.

My short puts are technically margin-supported but I actually have enough non-TSLA (uncorrelated) securities to sell to take execution on all of them, and I keep it that way.
 
OT

Look up the Dutch American Friendship Treaty. Under it, it is trivially easy to move to the Netherlands as an American citizen (the USA doesn’t hold up its end of the bargain under that treaty, making it much harder the other way around).

Once you have a legal right to stay in the Netherlands you have an automatic right to stay anywhere in Europe. But the Netherlands is like Europe for American beginners, so I’d recommend staying there for a little while before you tackle the more unamerican ones like France or Italy.

I can hook you up with accountant to set up the required company. Initial investment of 18k which you’ll be allowed to take out after founding and I estimate total for legal and registration filings of a few thousands euro and you are in.

I gotta run an actual business in the Netherlands to do it, though, right? I'm not really in a position to start up a business in a different location right now given my health problems. I'll keep it in mind though...
 
Deep foundations take time to pour and set, multi-story buildings take time to be raised - I'd guess at least another 5 months before lines can be moved in.

I would expect to see the construction crews for the building expansion showing up soon though.

Maybe Tesla has a trick up their sleeves, but normally I'd guess GF1 would be expanded by early next year, and more capital wouldn't really speed up this process. (The European Gigafactory could perhaps be sped up with more capital.)
 
Is Panasonic going to invest in new ovens at GF1 if they know the Maxwell dry tech is viable?

Or are we going to have to wait ~1 year before GF can expand beyond ~27 GWh per year?

You know that's a very good question. I suspect the building needs to be expanded no matter what... and frankly I wouldn't be surprised if there are still some type of ovens needed (I don't know much about the dry electrode tech, but I'd be surprised if there weren't heating and cooling cycles involved at some stage of assembly).
 
I concur with your observations - that's the reason I posted it here. There is a bonus for Tesla here: they will succeed, since the legacy car makers have not enough strength by themselves. (Also ref. the cooperation with Amazon which is more than just a supplier deal, the joint work of Ford & VW on some of their platforms etc.)
But there is a malus in there for Tesla, too: since German politicians see this as a matter of industry politics, they will quite happily do everything in their power to cut out Tesla, unless Tesla (somehow) becomes part of the German car maker circus... German institutions have a clear anti-Tesla bias and I fear this will increase.

If - despite all of this - Tesla should soar in Germany, I would see this as a very very very(!) strong move. I think Tesla had a strong showing in mind for Model S which didn't happen. February numbers for the Model 3 were positive, if March is even more positive, I think we might be able to shift the narrative.

Either way: we will see. I maintain my point, that Germany will remain difficult for Tesla (@avoigt might want to provide his more optimistic view of the situation).

Exactly. For me your initial post seemed too upbeat, implying the policy has the progress of EVs as a main priority. Thanks for clarifying that.

TSLA will indeed soar. Even if German politicians somehow find a way to hinder it's progress there, the impact will be restricted mostly in Germany. I'm also sure many German VW customers are still unhappy from the Dieselgate debacle and the way the German authorities treated them (effectively siding with the manufacturer and not the customers).

Btw, thank you for your informative posts following the German media.
 
I don't think they'll ship around stamped panels: to store them safely against damage is both a significant expense and decreases transportation density, which increases logistics costs.

Here's what Elon said about what will be made in the Shanghai Gigafactory, on the Q4 conference call 2 months ago:

Elon Musk:

"And earlier this month, we saw the construction of our Gigafactory in Shanghai, and by the end of this year, we expect to be producing Model 3s using a complete vehicle production line. That's body paint, final assembly, general assembly and module production."

"So it basically would be - this will be extremely fast. I get like daily updates of progress of the Shanghai Gigafactory, and those factories are going to go up like lightning."​

Note that while he didn't mention press/stamp lines, he didn't mention injection molding lines either - those are naturally placed close to the body and final assembly lines. Completely-knocked-down-kits (CDK's) sometimes get shipped around the globe but are a major complication on the Fremont Model 3 production side which Tesla doesn't need.

Nor are stamps really expensive at the 3k/week rate they are targeting: I believe the main expense are the paint shop baths and booths, the robots of the chassis/body lines and the robots/stations of the general and final assembly line. I suspect they'll do a plastics shop too, with a lot of molding machines. Plus a new Grohmann Machine to make SR packs.

Big stamping machines may have long lead times - but that simply means that they have to sequence their orders properly for it all to arrive at the intended date. The dimensions and capacity should already be well specified at this stage, as the Model 3 and Model Y dimensions are already pinned down.

Do dies have long lead times, or is Tesla making those themselves? Have I forgotten anything?

Cell supply is the big question, IMHO.

Edit, Tesla mentioned stamp lines in the Q4 update letter:

"In the initial phase of Gigafactory Shanghai, we expect to have stamping, paint shop, body joining, and general assembly shops in operation by the end of 2019. This accelerated timeframe should be possible due to the radical simplification of our manufacturing layout and processes compared to our first-generation production line in Fremont. Higher-spec models such as our long-range all-wheel drive (AWD) and Performance versions will continue to be shipped to China from the US."​

I believe "general assembly shops" includes the plastic molding shop.

The only things missing from the China plan is:
  • Cell factory: This is probably still being negotiated, but I'd expect cells to be made at the Shanghai Gigafactory, in a similar construct to GF1.
  • Power-train factory: these are high density, low volume, small size components which are easy to export from the Gigafactory and might help them protect their EV IP.
  • Seat factory: which they have in Fremont and which is relatively easy to export as well, although it might make sense to move this to China next, as they are low density components which makes transportation more expensive, plus seats could probably be further simplified for the Chinese market to reduce ASP.
  • Glass factory: I think it's made in GF2 right now, and that's not necessarily easy to export. They might be outsourcing window production, and they might opt for a metal roof instead of the glass roof. This would also differentiate the Chinese versions from the import versions very clearly.
  • HW3 board factory: this too is probably better done in the U.S., although they might eventually bring this to China too.

Doubt there will be metal roof.
Elon mentioned the glass roof made such a big difference, which is true.
It's iconic that all Tesla vehicles, except for Semi, have been universally equipped with glass roof for a while.
It is a selling point.

Plus, not doing glass roof will not make Chinese customers happy, which could undermine Tesla's publicity. You know, people here have quite strong nationalism (that's a long story) and whenever they feel being mistreated, nationalism is the way to go :eek:

People in the west still have so many misconceptions about China. There are more affluent Chinese than you guys realize. They don't want subpar products. What America and Europe get, China wants and will get.

I don't think Tesla should and would take this risk. Just get it done locally, the quality is going to be great and the price will be lower than GF2 (before considering export cost).

Heck, if Tesla wants the lowest cost, just do everything in China, if they are confident China can't steal the tech :D
 
I gotta run an actual business in the Netherlands to do it, though, right? I'm not really in a position to start up a business in a different location right now given my health problems. I'll keep it in mind though...

'Consulting' is a business. You don't actually need to do anything. I don't know how it works with health insurance etc. You may be eligible for Dutch insurance or you may need to keep American cover.