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That's very bad news and creates a ton of uncertainty for me and many international shareholders. Looks like a devastating event for international stockholders who fall under similar rules. We have been at that point before when Elon declared to consider taking Tesla private which would have led to a similar squeeze out for international shareholders. Luckily that did not happen.

Since this sounds to be confirmed in Finland the likelihood that despite all logic the same applies in Germany is increasing while here the taxes will be automatically deducted from your bank account if the depot decides to do so. There is no negotiation and many including me would be forced to sell a ton of shares. From the 80% all shares taxed in Germany its about 26% which translates in 20% lost value.

That's literally a squeeze out for 20% of all shares you own to compensate for taxes you did not gain through a stock value increase. That will create quite some sell pressure and is definitely not intended from Tesla.

What other countries can confirm to have the same issue? I've seen countries listed above but who can confirm.

Wow, I really am quite shocked!

I'm a total blank slate when it comes to various tax issue, but riddle me this: even if you treat this as if it's a taxable vent... if the one share you got somehow yielded 4 more, but the market value after this "yield" remained the same, it means your original one share lost 4/5th of its value isn't it? So you would log a loss on your original share, and equal gain on the newly minted ones.
 
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Reactions: UkNorthampton
You're no doubt seeing disagreement because your speculation is moronic. Things don't work this way, and random ignorant guesses are a waste of everybody's time and effort.

Me, I just skipped over your post initially as more pointless speculating on things that can't possible be true. Please stop.
Thanks for eloquent and gentle explanation.
 
It's a good thing VW has 5,000+ software engineers to figure this one out:

upload_2020-8-12_15-33-37.png
 
I'm a total blank slate when it comes to various tax issue, but riddle me this: even if you treat this as if it's a taxable vent... if the one share you got somehow yielded 4 more, but the market value after this "yield" remained the same, it means your original one share lost 4/5th of its value isn't it? So you would log a loss on your original share, and equal gain on the newly minted ones.

But the tax is on the dividend amount not on the capital gains. So it all hinges on how each taxing authority defines a dividend and calculates the amount.
 
Welcome to the TMC forum. I really appreciate the time you took to research and post this info considering your credentials. I was very worried of this possible 15% witholding tax as I have 90% of my holdings invested in TSLA in my tax free saving account (TFSA).

Normand

Thank you!

I’m in the same boat (90% of my holdings in TFSA) and was about to start sending letters to members of parliament if the research pointed me to the conclusion that I was about to have 12% of my account value get wiped out because of a stock split being a structured as a “dividend”.

Ultimately, I think this has more to do with Tesla being a Delaware corp than anything else. I would love for there to also be an ulterior motive of burning short sellers, but I’m not there yet. Though I will speak to a couple of my investment banking friends to see if they have any views on the topic.
 
So why wouldn't UBER/Lyft do/require the same? Why is that became such an issue for them? I'll be honest I didn't look into this issue at all, so it maybe an obvious thing...
There isn't enough profit for the driver in Uber to make it viable. There is a lot more profit in the Tesla Network. (From what I've read.)
 
Realizing this is my first post so I am providing some background. I’ve been a shareholder since SCTY was acquired by TSLA. At that time, I was one of those investors that shied away from psychologically expensive stocks. I wanted to buy something Elon was involved with, and couldn’t bring myself to spend hundreds for TSLA when I could spend tens for SCTY. After all I could buy more shares of one, own more of the pie (absent actually looking at what the available float was for each). Since then, I’ve bought significantly more shares, LEAPS, and have sold premium through options wheels. All that to say, I am a strong believer of the mission, a Teslannaire, and really appreciate all of the amazing content generated by this community.

I am Canadian. I am a CPA, CA (Canada has multiple legacy accounting designations) with a specialization in Tax. I professionally practice in corporate taxation, dabble in personal taxation, and am employed by the largest accounting firm in the world. This post is aimed at my Canadian compatriots @Tes La Ferrari @Artful Dodger (and others that I have missed). The vast majority of my holdings are in TFSAs (save for options wheeling gains which are all on unregistered margin accounts). After several years of lurking, I felt it time to give back to this community.

That said, this is not advice, but it is how I will be treating my personal holdings.

TL;DR: This is not a taxable event to Canadians. This should not give rise to a 15% withholding tax on distribution of new shares.

CRA (our IRS) Interpretations

IT882-R2 Stock Dividends
ARCHIVED - Stock dividends - Canada.ca

All described dividends in this interpretation bulletin relate to scenarios where shareholders are receiving additional value or benefits in the form of additional shares, either of the company in question or in-kind of another company (occurs in spin offs or in share capital reorganizations). Where the distribution is in the context of a stock split, it points to IT-65.

IT-65 Stock Splits and Consolidations
ARCHIVED - Stock splits and consolidations - Canada.ca

The contemplated transaction falls squarely into the definition described in this document.

“Where all the shares of a class of stock of a corporation are replaced by a greater or lesser number of shares of the same class of stock of the same corporation in the same proportion for all shareholders, in circumstances where there is no change in the total capital represented by the issue [...]”

In such an event, there would be no deemed acquisition or disposition of shares. In other words, no taxable events. It also points to how you would derive your adjusted base on the new shares, though not relevant to TFSA holdings, the gist is that you would split the cost basis of your original holdings over your new holdings.

Court Cases

There are several Canadian court cases dealing with share distributions, and they tend to lean in the same direction. Unless there has been a clear conferral of additional value to shareholders, there is no taxable event. Without a taxable event, you don’t get in to withholding requirements.

Other Considerations

Where shareholders would have the OPTION of receiving either cash or shares as part of the transaction, even if they opt for shares, there would be taxable event. Conceptually, since the shareholder has the choice to receive cash, this would then be considered a deemed disposition. This is not the case here.

Conclusion

Absent there being additional details on the structure of the stock split, this does not appear to be a taxable event and should not be subject to the 15% withholding tax typical to dividends received by Canadians from US entities.

In other words, per my read of available SEC filings and Tesla press release, combined with publicly available interpretation bulletins, searching available tax research databases available to me, and discussions with colleagues specialized in cross border personal tax matters, this is not a taxable event, and should not be subject to the 15% withholding tax typically applicable to dividends received by Canadian tax residents from US equities.


Welcome to TMC @st_lopes & thanks for the informative post.

Would you say that the implications for TSLA shares held in a TFSA would be the same ? ( ie there would be no tax event, and no withholding tax on the 4 “additional dividend” shares post split )?
 
IMO it isn't a tax event, but in case it is, wouldn't you offset the *new* shares with the 80% loss of the *old* ones?

While that does appear to be a rational conclusion, tax codes may not get there. In order to have the loss available, you would need to have a disposition of the old share for some kind of consideration.

Also, depending on the country, you may not get the benefits of tax losses, but get taxed on dividends (see the Belgian examples). In other words, even if you sold the 1 share that “lost” value to try to realize the loss, you may not get the benefit of applying that loss against the “income” from a dividend.

As many have noted, sometimes tax rules get ahead of themselves (or really... are behind the real world), and you end up with extremely unfavorable outcomes when things “should” be simple and straightforward.

I am naively hopeful that all of the foreign shareholders will get to the “right” treatment and look forward to hearing more from our Finnish, German, and Belgian community members.
 
Welcome to TMC @st_lopes & thanks for the informative post.

Would you say that the implications for TSLA shares held in a TFSA would be the same ? ( ie there would be no tax event, and no withholding tax on the 4 “additional dividend” shares post split )?

Oui. Effectivement.

That would be my conclusion.

I would have been less worried about holdings in RRSPs (there’s a relief provision from the withholding in that scenario) or in an unregistered account (while not ideal, at least you get a Foreign Tax Credit).

I’ve always found it absurd that TFSAs have this blind spot when it comes to dividends from foreign issuers (it’s idiotic that if TSLA was a Canadian issuer, we wouldn’t have this issue at all), but it’s a great example of tax rules just not being modernized for the real world.
 
The Belgian Tax system does not care about you as an investor losing value. (No write-offs possible) They do however tax dividends. Not fair you say? They don't care.

The uncertainty for us Europeans is two-fold:
1. Are the extra awarded shares viewed as a dividend?
2. If yes (terminology in 8k SEC filing suggests that is the case), what value is attributed to the taxed dividends? For example if SP at split is $1500, are you taxed on $1200 or $0? (The argument for the latter being you are awarded 4 shares of $0 value that happen to start trading at $300 the next trading day)

As said before, I called my broker (Saxo Bank's Binck) about this and they said they got this question all day today. Will notify all of their clients soon, definitely before August 21st. Will post here when I know more.

I live in Belgium, and went through a stock split before (AAPL 1:7).. I wasn't taxed..

From what I gather this will be a stock split just like AAPL's..
 
lol this is a funny video. Fiduciary responsibility and electronic cars are the key takeaways for me :)


I think that guy is spot on:
He said: "Tesla maybe ahead now, but when the big guys come in they will move at a different pace",
then he later clarified this further by bringing up the "hare and the tortoise story". That's right! GM and Ford moves at the pace of the tortoise while Tesla is moving at the pace of the hare, indeed. His only mistake is to assume the fairy tale will be played out in real life, so he is waiting for Tesla to take a nap (stop innovating and developing their technology further), so that all those tortoise companies can catch up.

Good luck waiting for that nap and keep on shorting!
 
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Wow I thought the US tax system was messed up. I still believe this is just brokers speaking out of ignorance and everyone will eventually reach the conclusion that this a non-event for tax purposes. It makes no sense that you should be taxed for the 1200.

Does AAPL stock split also result in a taxable event for you? Or is that different because the word “dividend” is missing?
We'll find out in a couple of week, but there is no AAPL dividend associated with the split.
 
I would vote for a separate room as US stockholders may not be impacted here but the truth is if worst comes to worst which we all do not hope we would have an impact and significant influence on the stock and therefore the conversation belongs IMO for the moment here.

I created a separate thread for this: Stock split tax implications for non-US shareholders

Not easy job to move discussion from main thread, but worth trying.

This is super-important issue for many non-US shareholders. At the same time, this discussion has zero value to US-based investors. They are on the safe side anyway.