Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[Johan]

I like this. Vehicles should be taxed based on miles driven and weight. Those two things are what degrade our roadways. Fuel taxes should continue in some form; that would be more of a carbon tax though, not for roads.

Problem is that if you only look at "wear and tear" of the road heavy transport is >95% of the issue. And zooming out even more it's actually mostly weather and climate that degrade roads over time - so an unused road will wear out just like a heavily used road.

Which is why only miles driven is a better metric - those using the infrastructure more contribute more to it's build out and maintenance.

 

[UkNorthampton]

Cough! Splutter!
Maybe true...but Europe and China... kind of a pair of huge, huge, huge megamarkets though?

China & some European countries have been the ones to insist on open networks for getting prime land like along motorways, for some European countries these were old rules carried forward.

It's open to interpretation, but it does illustrate that open networks may have advantages (planning/land/subsidies) in some countries:-

The future of E-charging infrastructure: Germany

This article, focusing on Germany, is the first of a series of articles exploring the future of e-charging in Europe.

www.wfw.com

Spoiler: GermanEvChargingRegs

"Under the LSV, all charging station operators are obliged to provide every electric vehicle user with the option of ad-hoc charging outside of an ongoing customer relationship. This applies to all charging stations installed since December 2017. Either payment by cash, online payment or debit/credit cards must be available options if charging is not free.
...
The LSV does not apply to charging stations that are only privately accessible.
...
...
charging infrastructures are initiated by local authorities or municipal utilities themselves
...
some discussion on whether or not long-term exclusivity regarding suitable spaces for charging stations might infringe German (and possibly EU) competition law, especially where a municipality chooses one provider to develop an entire charging network in its area. One could argue that efficiency gains outweigh any restraints of competition⁵, although as far as we are aware, this has not yet been tested in court."

https://www.rvo.nl/sites/default/files/2019/04/German%20charging%20infrastructure%20regulations%20report%20march%202019_0.pdf

p24 - Appendix - "Selective charging is the charging of an electric vehicle which is not performed as part of a continuing obligation between the user and an electricity supply company or an operator of a charging point."

I can't find anything on China when searching but I do remember discussion of the requirement that highway/motorway charge sites can't be proprietary in China (public land)

 

[TheTalkingMule]

Why do we need to have a roadways tax at all? It should simply be a normal federal expenditure that flows into state entities to build and maintain infrastructure.

Put a pseudo-carbon-tax on gasoline and diesel to encourage transition and be done with it.

 

[2daMoon]

I like this. Vehicles should be taxed based on miles driven and weight. Those two things are what degrade our roadways. Fuel taxes should continue in some form; that would be more of a carbon tax though, not for roads.

The fuel tax addresses miles driven and weight as any incremental change in either of those will be correlated in the use of electricity.

The best process is no process, right?

 

[willow_hiller]

We don’t know how the law will end up written, but the language in the GREEN Act from last month would not work that way. Under the definition of “exclusion period,” Tesla purchases made before the enactment date of the law would not qualify for credit. So if you purchased a Tesla today and the law was enacted in September your purchase would not qualify under the GREEN Act language.

Language for S395 "Electric Cars Act of 2021" was also published recently: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-117s395is/pdf/BILLS-117s395is.pdf

I think this one is explicitly retroactive to the beginning of 2021. The "Extension" (subsection a, which lifts the per-manufacturer cap and sunsets the credit after 10 years) has this limitation:

"The amendments made by subsection (a) shall apply to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2020."

 

[MTL_HABS1909]

So how about those $700C

 

[Christine69420]

Pete Buttigieg just suggested a "vehicle miles travelled tax" might work to replace road tax. He also says carbon tax is a good idea (but it might be too early to implement).

I don't like the "vehicle miles travelled tax" issue. It's been discussed in Norway too. Problem is that they all want to implement it by fitting GPS modules to the cars and logging everywhere you have been. In order to calculate miles driven. My stance is why introduce surveillance when not needed?

A fuel tax already cover this. Electricity is just another form of fuel. And can be taxed less since not fossil. And this way people are taxed more the more they drive.

TL;DR: No need to introduce another tax. Just adjust fuel taxes.

 

[goinfraftw]

Miami Mayor Floats Boring Company Transit Concept

Mayor Francis Suarez says Elon Musk’s Boring Company could meet the growing city’s mass transit system needs. The comments follow a visit to the company’s Las Vegas tunnel system last week.

www.govtech.com

Quotes:

"Suarez noted the carrying capacity of Boring’s system could be as high as 60,000 per hour"

and

"Addressing whether such a system could be built through Miami’s porous limestone bedrock, Suarez said Las Vegas’ system is built beneath that city’s water table and into subsoil that is much denser. “So it’s actually a lot harder to penetrate than it would be here,” he said. Asked why this project is a priority for his administration at the moment, Suarez said the proposed system would help meet the city’s growth needs going forward, and that the opportunity was too important, and unique, to pass up.


Suarez said Boring Co. itself has an interest in building something here as a further endorsement of its technology and proof-of-concept. “After seeing it, I even think it’s a better idea to do something even more comprehensive,” he said. Suarez said the next steps would be to further digest their takeaways from the visit and eventually make a proposal to the city council. Ideally, he said, Miami-Dade County officials would also get on board. To those who doubt its feasibility, he has a simple response. “Get on a plane and go to Las Vegas and check it out for yourself,” he said. “It’s there. It’s real.”"

 

[Singuy]

So how about those $700C

People should just buy puts. MM will make sure you win every Friday or at best keeps you from losing too much during a bull run.

 

[Beltsbear]

Traveling in Europe always leaves me struck by how much better their gas stations are located and designed compared to the United States.

Funny, I got the exact opposite out of visiting Europe. Reality? Gas stations are poorly designed most crowded areas in the USA or Europe.

 

[MartinAustin]

Problem is that if you only look at "wear and tear" of the road heavy transport is >95% of the issue. And zooming out even more it's actually mostly weather and climate that degrade roads over time - so an unused road will wear out just like a heavily used road.

Which is why only miles driven is a better metric - those using the infrastructure more contribute more to it's build out and maintenance.

When I see posts like this I am reminded of the Monty Python knights having a discussion about which birds can carry a coconut while they migrate...

I think the important thing for electric car drivers and TSLA in particular is that a fair system of road taxation is approaching - not one based on how much gasoline you use, plus some horrible punishments for BEV owners depending on what state you live in.

Buttigieg also said that CARBON PRICING is a good idea, but it is too early to implement it based on the fact that we don't yet know what to spend it on. (personally I would start by paying off the $26trilion national debt, but...)

 

[Knightshade]

Language for S395 "Electric Cars Act of 2021" was also published recently: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-117s395is/pdf/BILLS-117s395is.pdf

I think this one is explicitly retroactive to the beginning of 2021. The "Extension" (subsection a, which lifts the per-manufacturer cap and sunsets the credit after 10 years) has this limitation:

"The amendments made by subsection (a) shall apply to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2020."

The fact there's multiple versions of a new EV credit, and some are retroactive and some are not, would be why folks might wait to buy an EV until they know for sure either way.

Why do we need to have a roadways tax at all?

So that the folks using the resource are the ones who pay for it, in roughly proportion to how much they use it.

You can certainly make the argument everybody benefits from good roads even if they don't directly use them much, but that's not the route we've taken mostly.... (and would require raising the funds from some OTHER tax, and nobody likes proposing new taxes).

It should simply be a normal federal expenditure that flows into state entities to build and maintain infrastructure.

This is additionally complicated by the fact there's both federal and state funding of roads (and local funding as well).

The feds are only about 1/4 of the money spent for this purpose overall.

 

[lascavarian]

With all this solar at SC talk, I don’t think it is beyond Elon to use surplus power to generate Bitcoin. They would be generating money even if the SuperCharger is not used for charging cars.

Seems a better idea to sell excess power to the grid for a profit and avoid the grid spinning up CO2 producing peaker plants.

 

[Knightshade]

I don't like the "vehicle miles travelled tax" issue. It's been discussed in Norway too. Problem is that they all want to implement it by fitting GPS modules to the cars and logging everywhere you have been. In order to calculate miles driven. My stance is why introduce surveillance when not needed?

A fuel tax already cover this. Electricity is just another form of fuel. And can be taxed less since not fossil. And this way people are taxed more the more they drive.

TL;DR: No need to introduce another tax. Just adjust fuel taxes.

How do you specifically tax the electricity used to fuel EVs, rather than say- run the lights and appliances- at the home.... since that's where 99% of EV charging happens?

 

[lascavarian]

How do you specifically tax the electricity used to fuel EVs, rather than say- run the lights and appliances- at the home.... since that's where 99% of EV charging happens?

Yeah, better to tax tires a bit too I would think.

 

[Barnsy]

Does anyone know when Tesla began offering leases for Model 3? I'm curious about how many chose to lease vs buy, and whether we're looking at seeing significant numbers of returned cars waiting to become robotaxis soon.

 

[2daMoon]

How do you specifically tax the electricity used to fuel EVs, rather than say- run the lights and appliances- at the home.... since that's where 99% of EV charging happens?

Have the charger report its usage directly to the power company so that usage can be taxed as fuel.

Tell the smart fridge, AC and blender not to.

 

[jerry33]

How difficult would it be to use the "tax on fuel" model by incorporating a tax into the purchase of electricity via EV charger?

It should be easy enough for chargers to report to the power provider, then the user doesn't get hit with an annual or quarterly bill if it is rolled into their electricity bill, whether at home or at the charger station on the road.

I don't think it would be practical as every home with an EV would need a separate meter. Since almost all charging is done at home...

 

[CreativeName]

Language for S395 "Electric Cars Act of 2021" was also published recently: https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/BILLS-117s395is/pdf/BILLS-117s395is.pdf

I think this one is explicitly retroactive to the beginning of 2021. The "Extension" (subsection a, which lifts the per-manufacturer cap and sunsets the credit after 10 years) has this limitation:

"The amendments made by subsection (a) shall apply to vehicles acquired after December 31, 2020."

A perfect illustration as to the unknown of what the final language will look like. I am personally waiting to pull the trigger until there is clarity. Not related to the effective date, but I would be shocked if a “blank check” version like S395 that has no volume caps for 10 years makes it into the final bill, but we shall see!

 

[Christine69420]

How do you specifically tax the electricity used to fuel EVs, rather than say- run the lights and appliances- at the home.... since that's where 99% of EV charging happens?

We have no such taxes in Norway yet. We are happy with no taxes for EVs until they are approaching majority of cars. And it's a slow process - only 12% EVs so far.

I would be happier with a separate power meter on my home charger than a GPS module in my car logging everywhere I vent.

Or even simpler - all cars here need insurance and insurance companies need odometer readings. They can tax based on that. Insurance companies already collect the annual car registration tax.

The very best option would be no taxes. Since only fossil cars pollute. And 99% of road detoriation is from big rigs hauling freight. No need to tax personal usage EVs really.