Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Just a clarification as I see it. Elon isn't referencing FSD VERSION 10 or 11 when wide release will happen. He says REVISION 10 or 11. A new version involves a significant hardware/software change (like version 9 went to vision only.) Revisions are simply OTAs to the current system. I read this as 10 or 11 updates to Version 9 will see wide rollout. It will just depend on how fast the OTAs come out.

Yeah, this is the major question. We want to see updates like the earlier FSD Beta, once every week or two. Not updates like v9, every six months or so. I’d even rather see them e.g. keep updating v9 while v10 is getting polished for release, rather than have months of dead time. Surely there are bits to improve that would still be relevant to the future version.

Anyway, FSD has real value to me even today. “plain” AP and it’s double beep on every lane change (off to change, on again afterward) is obnoxious to me when driving, makes passengers think something is wrong (why’s the car beeping so much?), and distracts from any music or audiobook or whatever might be playing in the background. So I’d get a road trip subscription for sure for navigate on AP. I’m less sold on FSD for around-town driving. The green light beep is nice. Stop light/sign detection beyond that seems less frequently useful without the ability to turn at one. Summon… I don’t yet have confidence that nothing bad will happen if I can’t see the car and its surroundings… and if I can then summon isn’t getting me very much. Didn’t help that on the first try I was at a corner and it parked in the opposing traffic lane on one side rather than turning so it would be in the correct lane on the other side. Maybe user error — should have stood somewhere that didn’t give it the bad option. :) Auto-park hasn’t worked that well for me. So I’m definitely more of a road trip FSD convert. For now.
 
  • Informative
  • Like
Reactions: capster and Drax7
If Tesla got a five year old car in trade-in they might have felt that we'll let FSD stay with the car and
If Apple got a trade-in iPhone or iPad, for sure they will do a factory reset and install whatever software they want, regardless of the apps and os version installed at the time of trade-in.

Tesla is likely to do a software factory reset for the upgrades after getting the trade-in. And then either include or exclude upgrades in the sale listing depending on the market condition to be in favor of moving used car inventory quickly (e.g. including FSD at a smaller markup) v.s. maximize profit (e.g. excluding upgrades and letting buyer to decide to buy/subscribing to FSD/upgrades as they wish)
 
Last edited:
I like the subscription. I bought what ever they were calling FSD in 2015, sold the car in 2019 and never got it. Bought FSD again in 2019, and two years later, still nothing. We are getting a Model Y for our vacation home, and we will only use the car 6 months a year. Would rather pay for the subscription on the months we are using the car, when FSD with auto steer on city streets actually becomes a reality. Until then, I'm not considering spending 10K. Fool me once, and twice, but not three times!

FSD should always have been a subscription thing.

The problem is that they now have kinda painted themselves into a corner by charging $10k up front for it, and the revenue-maximizing subscription cost (and this number will get lower as ASP drops and unit sales rise) is probably low enough that it will anger the customers who bought FSD...
 
When selling a car with FSD to a 3rd party, why would you not be able to recoup the entire cost of the FSD or at least what the current cost is to purchase the FSD? Elon has mentioned that the cost for FSD will continue to climb.

That depends on if the buyer wants FSD at all, and what value he places on it.

As is obvious by the non-100% take rate, not every Tesla buyer thinks FSD is worth $10,000.

If you're picky enough about your buyer you can likely find SOMEONE who is fine paying full price, as they'd have paid it to add it if they'd bought a non-FSD car... but not every buyer will be in that camp.

Plus, traditionally, ALL options depreciate in general- FSD is a bit of a new paradigm in that regard, but again depending on the buyer they might not see it that way.
 
  • Like
Reactions: saniflash
FSD should always have been a subscription thing.

The problem is that they now have kinda painted themselves into a corner by charging $10k up front for it, and the revenue-maximizing subscription cost (and this number will get lower as ASP drops and unit sales rise) is probably low enough that it will anger the customers who bought FSD...


Unless the customer is getting rid of the car years sooner than average, paying up front was still cheaper. By a lot.

(and this is even moreso for the pre-April/May 2019 buyers who could have gotten FSD for only 2-3k and gotten the HW3 upgrade without a $1500 surcharge included)
 
  • Like
Reactions: saniflash
FSD should always have been a subscription thing.

The problem is that they now have kinda painted themselves into a corner by charging $10k up front for it, and the revenue-maximizing subscription cost (and this number will get lower as ASP drops and unit sales rise) is probably low enough that it will anger the customers who bought FSD...
I wouldn't have bought it if it was a subscription. You can always find some money for purchases, but monthly payments are what get you into trouble.
 
Really, the best way for me to describe FSD on highway systems here in the U.S. is fully autonomous. I love it.

Agree. I use it from on-ramp to off-ramp. It handles the entire drive including passing, lane merges, etc. These two aspects have gotten so much better. Car will speed up or slow down just like I would when switching lanes. On merges it is cognizant of adjacent cars and remaining runway.

I take over for objects it can’t identify or won’t navigate around, but that’s infrequent.

My commute is much more relaxing and I find myself more attentive as the 40-50 min SoCal drive is not so taxing anymore.
 
In the short term this will be a double edged sword financially for Tesla:

Positive: Tesla has dramatically increased the amount of people who will be able to buy FSD, by lowering the entry price from $10,000 to $199.

Negative: A portion of the buyers who would have paid $10,000 upfront will instead opt for the $199 per month / $2388 annual option (and unlike the up front option a portion of these buyers will cancel the subscription, leaving Tesla with $7612 less profit for the first 12 months.

(Tesla will need 3.2 new subs to match the lost cashflow in first 12 months for every buyer who chooses a sub instead of an outright purchase.)

One thing to keep in mind: Wall Street LOVES recurring revenue subscriptions, much more so than one off sales. Providing churn is low, this should be viewed very positively on Monday, and hopefully at earnings when Tesla might provide initial take up stats after first week of availability.

$199 is, IMHO, way too high... For the simple reason that they could probably easily get way more than 4x the customers if they dropped the price by a factor of 4.

The problem is that they can't do that without angering the people who bought FSD at $10k
 
I have a 2018 model 3 and I am completely uncomfortable with how it handles on ramps. It basically just goes until the lane runs out and then hopefully has a spot to merge. There have been so many times that it has behaved poorly that I won’t let it attempt it anymore
Is this AP or FSD?

As said above, AP is lane-keeping assist and adaptive cruise control. It does not change lanes. I assume my 2019 Model 3 would do the same thing, but I've never tried it.
 
Unless the customer is getting rid of the car years sooner than average, paying up front was still cheaper. By a lot.

(and this is even moreso for the pre-April/May 2019 buyers who could have gotten FSD for only 2-3k and gotten the HW3 upgrade without a $1500 surcharge included)

You aren't getting the point. FSD should be priced at whatever price maximizes revenue.

My point is that number ($10k up front or $199/mo) is way too high. Probably 90%+ of owners are going to pass on that, and the number of owners that will pass on that will only grow larger as Tesla penetrates downward into the price ranges too.

I guarantee if they lowered the cost by some percentage, the number of subscribers would increase by more than that percentage, increasing revenue.
 
$199 is, IMHO, way too high... For the simple reason that they could probably easily get way more than 4x the customers if they dropped the price by a factor of 4.

The problem is that they can't do that without angering the people who bought FSD at $10k
Purchased FSD will retain (if not increase) it’s value on resale, so it really is a wash if purchased upfront (especially if financed).

Pricing will likely come down eventually with feature restrictions (think $50/month for highway only), if Tesla does decide it wants to just grow the user base. That would also still appease the $10k pundits that don’t like the argument that it retains value on resale.
 
You aren't getting the point. FSD should be priced at whatever price maximizes revenue.

My point is that number ($10k up front or $199/mo) is way too high. Probably 90%+ of owners are going to pass on that, and the number of owners that will pass on that will only grow larger as Tesla penetrates downward into the price ranges too.

I guarantee if they lowered the cost by some percentage, the number of subscribers would increase by more than that percentage, increasing revenue.
But not maximizes today’s revenue… maximizes revenue over the life of the fleet, or whatever. If you believe FSD will approach or reach level 5 in the next 2-3 years, which apparently Elon does, then you must expect a far higher number of owners to want it in that time range. If you sold it to all of them for 1/4 the price now, you’re giving up that future 3/4 when it becomes desirable enough that they’d buy/subscribe at the then-prevailing rates. You could argue for a lower subscription price in the mean time to capture subscriber revenue now, but then you’d be locking massive subscription price increases into the business model when the feature set grows, which may not be desirable. I mean, you may gripe if it goes from $199 to $249 when city streets is released, but just imagine the outrage if it went from $49 to $249 then!
 
In most of the world the vast majority of people wealthy enough to buy a car live in multi-family housing. Whether there are garages, garage spaces or not depends entirely on where one lives. Consider even New York County, i.e. Manhattan. Very, very few garages there. Consider almost every major city including London, Paris and Rome. In all of those garages are not the rule. In the suburbs Muti-vehicle garages are not rare, but most garages, where they exist, are single vehicle. A quick review of typical. wealthy living conditions yields fairly similar conditions almost everywhere.

In general the countries that are exceptions too that rule are US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and not much else.
Cars end out being very popular in all those places so urban congestion becomes worse and worse. From Tesla perspective the most important single amenity is widespread street charging (even Croatia and Slovenia have that happening, and many countries are encouraging that) plus public parking place charging (Tesla already does that with urban Superchargers and normal ones). Destination charging has been a very efficient add-on and in many large countries (Canada, US, Mexico, China, Italy and the list goes on) Destination chargers act to serve until Superchargers arrive and after.

We all need to make sure we are considering how Tesla must approach charging infrastructure on a local basis everywhere. As Tesla expands sales in areas not yet served or minimally served these are becoming more and more significant from an investment perspective. Of course they always ahem been a huge issue, generally overlooked form an economic perspective. Certainly when they began in 2012 they were free, and that continued until 2018 in some cases at least.
Now the primary issue is whether Superchargers will be essentially break-even or whether combining them with storage might make them profitable, albeit indirectly.

All of that is mostly discussed in supporting trips. In urban cases, from Hong Kong, Singapore, all large Italian cities, nearly all large EU cities and many others there are access rules that favor BEV's. The consequence is that charging infrastructure within those central cities becomes very important. Americans tend to be unaware of such issues, which are Right Now giant issues as Tesla becomes very popular in these settings.

There is no substitute for vast increases in Tesla charging solutions because nearly everywhere the other options are undependable, complex to access, require arcane registration processes, have very few charge points or all of that. Now that Tesla is being induced to share the problem of congestion will rise unless an even more dramatic system expansion takes place very quickly.

When the Berlin and Austin production goes online and Shanghai and others continue production expansion there will be more countries that need dramatic Supercharger networks where there are none. China, US, EU, Japan, Korea etc all need more Superchargers already as does Australia. Now think about Brazil, Russia, Argentina, Saudi Arabia, India, Southeast Asia and so on. Right now Greece, Bulgaria, Turkey and other European are have very little coverage and need it desperately.

Tesla will be producing roughly two million vehicles next year and, say, 40% more the next year.
Just imagine the scale of building deploying and operating all these Superchargers in all these widely disparate countries. Disparate electrical standards, political and economic conditions and degree of multi-country auto tourism.

There are approximately 5000 Supercharger locations now with >25,000 stalls. As geography and density rise those will probably rise at roughly double the rate of new vehicle sales (the last 'rule of thumb' was given me orally by a Tesla Supercharger executive, so nothing written supports the logic).
If all holds we can expect 2022 to need essentially double the Supercharger stations. here should be economies of scale, offset by more regulatory hurdles. Therefore assume $450,000 us per station. That suggests on the order of $2,225,000,000 for 2022 alone.

I doubt it will ber any less, but very well could be much more. How about operating expense and income? AFAIK, we are largely clueless right now.

In UK, something like 22% of households/drivers don't have off-road charging ability. Many single garages aren't big enough for any but the smallest cars.

Summary - 22% of UK drivers will have options to charge once a week or so soon-ish. That's enough for most to switch to EVs once awareness/FUD is overcome.

[ *I've seen figures below 7000 miles - but choosing a slightly higher figure. MEDIAN (most common) is UNDER 6000 - Total Car Check - The lowest cost car check in the UK!]

So they will need to charge from lights/plugs on street, at work, fast chargers (not ideal), shopping, gyms, Gridserve-type Electric Forecourts, FRIENDS & FAMILY etc.

Taking an average mileage of around* 8000 miles/12874.75km (Average Annual Mileage of Cars in England is Down – Are We Really Driving Less?). Assuming 200 miles of range (pick own number) means 40 FULL charges a year or one a week should be fine. Add some destination charging & much less needed. Charging at work should add 12mph*7.5 kwh gives 90 miles - so plenty in UK for most

Gridserve are going for 100 Electric Forecourts (similar number to 124 Postcode prefixes, which might give an idea of availability to UK people), others will do similar, "end of July 2021 there will be free 7kW EV charging bays at 400 Tesco stores. At selected stores there are free 22kW chargers and (chargeable) 50kW rapid chargers" - Tesco Supermarket/VW/Pod-Point (just 4 per location on the few I looked at on zap-map, hopefully more later or at other locations) - Tesco Partnership | Electric Charging | Volkswagen UK (just hope there will be enough)
 
You aren't getting the point. FSD should be priced at whatever price maximizes revenue.

My point is that number ($10k up front or $199/mo) is way too high. Probably 90%+ of owners are going to pass on that, and the number of owners that will pass on that will only grow larger as Tesla penetrates downward into the price ranges too.

I guarantee if they lowered the cost by some percentage, the number of subscribers would increase by more than that percentage, increasing revenue.

If they aren't getting the take rate they want, they can lower the price and everyone with a subscription will benefit.
 
Considering the number of people I see on a daily basis running reds and stops signs; it should be a mandatory cost for every single one of them.
Sounds like a great sales opportunity….if a non FSD Tesla owner runs a red light (which the car knows and might even stop), a pop-up dialog should take over the display telling them FSD would have prevented the hazard and possible fine….for the low,low,low price of $199/ mo! :D
 
You aren't getting the point. FSD should be priced at whatever price maximizes revenue.
Why do you think that? Tesla has a clear mission. They aren't shy about saying what it is. At no time has it ever been about maximizing revenue. And, even though it's not the mission, Tesla has been quite vocal about maximizing safety. So this revenue thing may be your point, but there's no evidence that it's all that relevant to Tesla. You are much more likely to understand things, and make a more convincing argument, if you concentrate on what FSD pricing works best to "accelerate the world’s transition to sustainable energy".
 
I built my Q2 forecast using Q1 as a starting point.
Already in Q1, production could not keep up with Powerwall demand. She this statement in the Q1 earnings deck:
View attachment 684649

For Q2 I assumed that production would continue to fall short of demand. If the situation has worsened, it could take my EPS number from $1.06 to about $1.02 (still well above Wall Street of $0.96).
And yet a few days ago I received an email from Tesla promoting Powerwalls as protection against blackouts with a link to the solar panel page. Maybe a new source for batteries is coming soon?