Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.
Here are some numbers which might cheer people up (some hope):

20m cars sold (Tesla's aim by 2030)
ASP $50,000
Revenue $1 Tn (yes trillion)
Operating margin 20%
Operating profit $200 Bn
Assumed PE 50
Market cap $10 Tn
Number of shares 3.16 Bn
= Share price $3,165
Today's share price $160


If they fail and are "only" selling 10m cars by 2020
= Share price $1,582

If they are only selling 10m cars by 2030 and the PE is only 25 (Don't be silly)
= Share price $791

This is why I'm not whinging, I'm not complaining, I'm not moaning. I'm buying.
And even though you didn't separate out Tesla Energy from the revenue, by 2030 I believe that's where a substantial portion of it will come... if they haven't spun it off as a separate company by then. Judging by that recent megapack install in Belgium, I would bet TE has a LOT of potential customers knocking on their virtual door lately. That illustrates just how to power a municipality on a renewable basis. Awesome and another reason to HODL.
 
Here are some numbers which might cheer people up (some hope):

20m cars sold (Tesla's aim by 2030)
ASP $50,000
Revenue $1 Tn (yes trillion)
Operating margin 20%
Operating profit $200 Bn
Assumed PE 50
Market cap $10 Tn
Number of shares 3.16 Bn
= Share price $3,165
Today's share price $160


If they fail and are "only" selling 10m cars by 2030
= Share price $1,582

If they are only selling 10m cars by 2030 and the PE is only 25 (Don't be silly)
= Share price $791

This is why I'm not whinging, I'm not complaining, I'm not moaning. I'm buying.
A PE of 50 is too generous in the first scenario (as they've already grown to a massive level). I appreciate you including the third scenario.
 
These particular ones bought Hyundai and Kia.

Interesting. I wonder, did they know about the $1000 "battery fluid changes" required every 3 yrs before they bought? Or that if they don't pay for this service, Hyundai voids their battery warranty?
Also, do they park outside do to the battery fire risks? Does their Home Insurance cover EV fires when owners have been warned?
 
I have been a Tesla shareholder since 2018 and over the last 4 years this thread has helped me maintain my conviction during many difficult times. By 2020 over 98% of my net worth was invested in TSLA and since then I have continued to add shares whenever I can afford to.

I very rarely post anything because I don’t want to add any more clutter to this thread…but lately the signal to noise ratio has deteriorated and I just wanted to add my thoughts (for what it’s worth)…



I understand how difficult and disheartening it can be when you see your portfolio down 60% or more and the share price is significantly lower than many of the share purchases you’ve made in the last couple of years.

But if you are working hard to invest all your proceeds in TSLA, then surely logic dictates that this current price allows you to accumulate a lot more shares than if the share price was much higher now, right? Then when the share price recovers (it’s only a matter of time, and patience) your gains will be significantly higher for any shares you’ve managed to purchase at this lower level. Obviously this only applies for long term investments and not if you need the money in the short term.

This is the principal I followed when the price dropped in 2019. I continued buying as many shares as I could afford because the market had become disconnected from what I knew about the company. There was a lot of noise back then too. Although it was significant at the time, the funny thing is that when you look at the 5 year chart now you can barely even see that dip in 2019, due to the change in the vertical scale! I'm sure that given enough time, this dip will look the same...

View attachment 884945

There has been a lot of speculation lately (just like there was speculation about the Model 3 ramp back in 2019), but we haven’t seen any actual evidence to back up that speculation. The naysayers keep trying to spin the narrative that Tesla has a ‘demand problem’ (just like they’ve always done) and that anything less than 50% growth is a disaster. They cherry-pick their information from individual markets or individual quarters to try and fit that narrative and as a result they just can’t see the wood for the trees.

The reality of delivering cars all over the world from a handful of factories is that the numbers are often lumpy (especially when you zoom in), but if you zoom out far enough you will see that the growth continues.

With Covid and supply chain challenges, obviously the growth hasn’t been as high as it might have been under more normal circumstances and sometimes that can be frustrating. But even if it ends up at 43 or 45% growth this year, that’s still remarkable under the circumstances.

Tesla have continued to execute amazingly well during extremely challenging conditions over the last 2 years. I expect them to continue to do that and I expect that the challenging conditions over the next 12 to 18 months will only continue to widen the gap between Tesla and the legacy OEMs.

Ignore the noise and just stay laser focused on the actual company performance and fundamentals. Choose your sources very carefully and don’t pay too much attention to idle speculation or unsubstantiated claims (either positive or negative).

Manage your expectations….we can all sometimes get over excited by the potential for Tesla (for good reason) and it’s easy to set unrealistic expectations, which results in disappointment if they don’t achieve what we expected. It’s bad enough when the fudsters set unrealistic expectations just to create a miss, so we need to be very careful not to do that to ourselves too!

Remember that every day there are new people driving a Tesla for the first time and we all know how powerful and transformative that experience can be…

I recently came across a series of videos by a guy from the UK who bought a Model Y back in June this year. He described himself as someone who is into cars….what we call a ‘petrolhead’ here in the UK….with a Porsche 911 in the garage (I think his fifth 911) and his wife has had a Porsche Macan SUV for the last 8 years. The Model Y was for his wife…..a reluctant purchase for both of them because it seemed the Porsche Macan EV was still some way off. They had previously tried a Jaguar I-Pace back in 2018, but that was short lived due to the “dire software interface” / “dire inefficiency of the vehicle and the range anxiety ”.

They were clearly sceptical going into this purchase and the first video is their initial reaction after 10 days of owning the Model Y:

Tesla Model Y Long Range 10 day initial impressions review England UK

Some direct quotes from the video:


This transformation is a story we’ve heard many times over, but we sometimes forget and it’s good to be reminded from time to time….and coming from a die-hard petrolhead I think it carries more weight. He articulates his thoughts quite well and it’s interesting to see the transformation play out and the change in his thinking over a relatively short timeframe.

Tesla Model Y Long Range 3 month 4,000 mile U.K. review GB


A few months in and he’s selling his Porsche 911 because he never uses it anymore…bearing in mind the Model Y is his wife’s car!

Tesla Model Y England U.K. - what next? 2nd EV?



This kind of story continues to happen all around the world and each one of these new ‘converts’ spreads the story to their friends and family.

I’m not worried about demand and Tesla has plenty of cards to play to keep that demand exceeding production for many years to come…
Please post more often.
 
Interesting. I wonder, did they know about the $1000 "battery fluid changes" required every 3 yrs before they bought? Or that if they don't pay for this service, Hyundai voids their battery warranty?
Also, do they park outside do to the battery fire risks? Does their Home Insurance cover EV fires when owners have been warned?
Add to that battery replacement on those are 30K or more.

MOD: Keep this thread to Tesla.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
OK, let's do that.
Sports teams generate advertising revenue (even federation Football, about which they complain because of too few intervals for ads) so advertisers pay huge prices. (perhaps you've heard of Super Bowl ads?). Thus the Sports teams promotion is closely related to celebrity endorsements, they are a vehicle for advertising rather than the subject of the ads.

In order to make cogent arguments for or against Tesla advertising it is desirable to understand how promotion works. Advertising is one part of promotion, by definition is is paid for by the object of the ads.

Sometimes it seems that understanding marketing without studying the subject is somehow similar to opining on medicine or physics without studying the subject. Any normally intelligent person could understand them all at a useful level. None can be done without actually understanding the subject.

A sports team advertising itself is precisely analogous to George Clooney paying Nespresso for his endorsement.

We have had almost endless debates here about Tesla marketing, the vast majority without any real study about what marketing is in the 21st century. Without repeating many other posts, Tesla is adept at what was traditionally called 'word of mouth'. Tesla consistently takes promotional actions that attract future customer and maintains their attention. Ask any literate 11 year old anywhere, almost worldwide I think, and you'll find a tesla enthusiast, precisely because of continuing feature enhancement to attract them. That is part of marketing, called product. The clever part is in placement, another component, which puts those clever product features in a desirable product.

When we discuss these issues at TMC we're prone to confuse consumer expendable measures such as 'intention to buy' and endow those with enormous significance. Then we ignore the fundamental character of consumer behavior in consumer durables, 'owner satisfaction'. Again we lose the path with another set of metrics called 'things gone wrong' and 'ease of use'. Those two also are deceptive because 'things gone wrong' in automotive context acts to include software updates as 'wrong' and a downloaded correction of a flat as a 'recall'.

Overall nearly all the establish auto industry data assumes advertising at dealers, regional and national level in print, TV, internet with paid placement and multi-level expense si the correct and only model. That 'just ain't true'! A large part of angst today is caused directly by people and groups who are motivated to diminish what the Economist calls 'liberal democracy'.

We cannot make progress with anti-FUD when we are not equipping ourselves with the necessary tools, mostly knowledge, with which to fight back. I do not wish to be histrionic. I do think the challenges of the present day are destabilizing much of what we value in Tesla and TSLA.

Examining what actually happened on Dave Chapelle vs how is was reported and assumed can be one easily digested beginning.

Examining what Tesla achieved in China and elsewhere this quarter will also be instructive if we examine the data carefully. Much of the factual errors in current reporting will be obvious in a couple of weeks. Much of that has been well meaning reporting, but willfully ignorant.

There is much more to be said, but almost all of it is a severe misunderstanding of how susceptible a wide open medium is to misinformation. The entire marketing structure needs to be dramatically altered in this environment.

There are few people who understand how this environment actually works. Two prime examples are Elon Musk and Volodymyr Zelensky. Thinking carefully about what they have in common would be, I think, informative. Looking very carefully helps understand how to combat FUD, encourage supporters, and expand markets.

By the way, both of those help understand how dangerous it is to try to act on very short term data. Both are instructive in learning how to navigate during times of disaster.
Well, for starters I’m not saying Tesla should advertise.
Quite a tangent!
The discussion was about a perceived need another poster saw for a professional public relations department. Not an advertising department.
What I am interested in are facts and truth which I believe WOULD be useful tools in promoting the brand.
Right now, the lone spokesman for the brand doesn’t seem to be… quite enough.
Sports simply aren’t a major advertiser with most journalism outlets that cover auto stuff and I was using that fact to point out what’s obvious to anyone who actually knows anything about MSM… there’s a firewall between advertising and the people who decide what stories to do.
It’s real except at pretty small and unimportant outlets.
But those journalists CAN be influenced by building relationships with them engaging them honestly with facts.
Especially in cases like Tesla and many key EV stories, since the facts are on our side.
Every relationship in this increasingly fractious nation doesn’t need to be adversarial.
 
Last edited:
Here are some numbers which might cheer people up (some hope):

20m cars sold (Tesla's aim by 2030)
ASP $50,000
Revenue $1 Tn (yes trillion)
Operating margin 20%
Operating profit $200 Bn
Assumed PE 50
Market cap $10 Tn
Number of shares 3.16 Bn
= Share price $3,165
Today's share price $160


If they fail and are "only" selling 10m cars by 2030
= Share price $1,582

If they are only selling 10m cars by 2030 and the PE is only 25 (Don't be silly)
= Share price $791

This is why I'm not whinging, I'm not complaining, I'm not moaning. I'm buying.

Your numbers line up closely with what my model predicts for 2030.

However, I expect the PE to be much lower than 50 in 2030 (its lower than that today!). Yes Tesla will still be growing but the growth rate will have planed out a bit by then, it won't be +50% per year anymore (I least I don't think it will).

I think they'll hit about 18 million deliveries in 2030 and have a PE around 25 or so, equaling a share price of about $1605. According to my model that is, and of course this is NOT accurate as predicting any valuations eight years out will never be accurate. I think a 10X over eight years is reasonable though for Tesla, and possibly a bit conservative even.
 
The wave continues...mostly.
Close to my house in NY is Tesla Mt.Kisco which is the main NE hub for Tesla.
There's a lot a half mile away from the dealership where they store cars during end of quarter. Many cars there but not as many as a few quarters ago when I flew last. Usually that empty section is full as well.

Hell of a growing solar array. I wonder if that was part of the deal with the landlord to be able to use the back lot from time to time.

There's also a shot of the dealership. I passed by and they were extremely active, couldn't even pull into the lot. The dealer is to the right, service cars middle and left, cars getting prepped towards the bottom. If anyone wants hi-res for any reason let me know.

Enjoy!

DJI_0083.JPG
DJI_0085.JPG
DJI_0088.JPG
DJI_0092.JPG
 
My post was incomplete, I apologize.
I agree with point A and B. Tesla had to rely mainly on the product.
And people able to look at the product now and tomorrow will evaluate Tesla cars based on that, which is good, as Tesla is still a superior product.

But here's the thing: the product "is spoken" about. Yes, there is direct word-of-mouth (many of you showed your Tesla to thousands of people, collectively), but there is also indirect word-of-mouth, namely... media. Official media like car magazines, unofficial media like Youtubers or social media influencers. In this second phase of Tesla - 2016-now, Elon social media and media presence has been enormous. Not always positive (pedotweet, ecc.) but mainly so, at least up until 2020.
Yes, media FUD started years ago, and created a settled narrative in many people about Elon as the worst billionaire alive.

My humble opinion, which you probably don't share, is that this was a tiny minority narrative, but it's increasing day by day now. Internationally.
I don't agree that Elon was really polarized politically, because living in Europe we don't have the same definition to left and right. He was a controversial billionaire with some liberal opinions and some conservative ones. We could find tweets for both in the past.
Above all, he was a maverick billionaire with a huge Twitter following, expressing his own opinion (which I personally often didn't agree with, and many of us were vocal at the time too).

Right now, he is the OWNER of Twitter, at the center of The Current Thing itself, waging war to the global "Woke" and all the Media all by himself, touching a thousand delicate subjects all at once with the grace of a enraged elephant: Trump deplatforming, COVID, Ukraine war (allegedly Twitter disconnected users from Ukraine yesterday, nobody knows if is a mistake or something else).
If you can't see the difference in accountability and responsibility, and how hated he is now compared to before, I don't know what to say.

Yeah, the starting point, the base is not different. He’s always been hated, always taken on what he thought was wrong all alone and with the grace of an enraged elephant. And it’s always different than the last time with the next predictions of demise.

You’ve forgotten much of what’s come before. Just as an example, I remember Elon taking on the NYT and the absolute outrage by many here that he would ‘anger’ such a powerful media outlet at an incredibly fragile point in the company’s existence. You can’t do that and get away with it they yelled. How stupid could he be!? He needs to be nice to them.

Oh, and the time he took on the SEC and the outrage for taking on such a powerful entity that you-just-can’t-do-that to, risking so much. In the end it helped TSLA shareholders and it exposed the SEC as the corrupt organization it is.

Oh, oh, and the time he took on all those fat cats in government blocking SpaceX from being able to compete for contracts. That was frowned upon by many.

The list is long, the outrages many.

The only thing different now is that it’s a difficult group of people mad at him. Well, that’s not entirely true - there’s people here that have been mad at him off and on for a decade.

Maybe you’re right and this is the beginning of the end. What a way to go, with guns blazing. I support it because if *we* don’t pull our heads out of our butts, we don’t deserve to exist. If people want to die on the ridiculous full of hate and anger hill, have at it. I plan on dying watching the sunset over the mountains of the most beautiful place I could ever imagine with my heart full gratitude and peace.
 
I’m scared of how low this goes. And that sucks. But I continue to remind myself that someone wants me to sell them my cheap shares. Sadly I deployed all remaining dry powder and am simply a spectator now.

There’s not a better opportunity in my opinion. If I wouldn’t sell my shares at $400 I’m certainly not selling them at $150.

I must remain steadfast that tesla is building the future I want to see for my children. I’d rather tell them I rode TSLA into the ground than that I bailed because I got scared and chose to protect my wealth rather than do what was right.

Just my $.02

Nominated for "Moderators' Choice: Posts of Particular Merit". Thank-you.
 
I have been a Tesla shareholder since 2018 and over the last 4 years this thread has helped me maintain my conviction during many difficult times. By 2020 over 98% of my net worth was invested in TSLA and since then I have continued to add shares whenever I can afford to.

I very rarely post anything because I don’t want to add any more clutter to this thread…but lately the signal to noise ratio has deteriorated and I just wanted to add my thoughts (for what it’s worth)…



I understand how difficult and disheartening it can be when you see your portfolio down 60% or more and the share price is significantly lower than many of the share purchases you’ve made in the last couple of years.

But if you are working hard to invest all your proceeds in TSLA, then surely logic dictates that this current price allows you to accumulate a lot more shares than if the share price was much higher now, right? Then when the share price recovers (it’s only a matter of time, and patience) your gains will be significantly higher for any shares you’ve managed to purchase at this lower level. Obviously this only applies for long term investments and not if you need the money in the short term.

This is the principal I followed when the price dropped in 2019. I continued buying as many shares as I could afford because the market had become disconnected from what I knew about the company. There was a lot of noise back then too. Although it was significant at the time, the funny thing is that when you look at the 5 year chart now you can barely even see that dip in 2019, due to the change in the vertical scale! I'm sure that given enough time, this dip will look the same...

View attachment 884945

There has been a lot of speculation lately (just like there was speculation about the Model 3 ramp back in 2019), but we haven’t seen any actual evidence to back up that speculation. The naysayers keep trying to spin the narrative that Tesla has a ‘demand problem’ (just like they’ve always done) and that anything less than 50% growth is a disaster. They cherry-pick their information from individual markets or individual quarters to try and fit that narrative and as a result they just can’t see the wood for the trees.

The reality of delivering cars all over the world from a handful of factories is that the numbers are often lumpy (especially when you zoom in), but if you zoom out far enough you will see that the growth continues.

With Covid and supply chain challenges, obviously the growth hasn’t been as high as it might have been under more normal circumstances and sometimes that can be frustrating. But even if it ends up at 43 or 45% growth this year, that’s still remarkable under the circumstances.

Tesla have continued to execute amazingly well during extremely challenging conditions over the last 2 years. I expect them to continue to do that and I expect that the challenging conditions over the next 12 to 18 months will only continue to widen the gap between Tesla and the legacy OEMs.

Ignore the noise and just stay laser focused on the actual company performance and fundamentals. Choose your sources very carefully and don’t pay too much attention to idle speculation or unsubstantiated claims (either positive or negative).

Manage your expectations….we can all sometimes get over excited by the potential for Tesla (for good reason) and it’s easy to set unrealistic expectations, which results in disappointment if they don’t achieve what we expected. It’s bad enough when the fudsters set unrealistic expectations just to create a miss, so we need to be very careful not to do that to ourselves too!

Remember that every day there are new people driving a Tesla for the first time and we all know how powerful and transformative that experience can be…

I recently came across a series of videos by a guy from the UK who bought a Model Y back in June this year. He described himself as someone who is into cars….what we call a ‘petrolhead’ here in the UK….with a Porsche 911 in the garage (I think his fifth 911) and his wife has had a Porsche Macan SUV for the last 8 years. The Model Y was for his wife…..a reluctant purchase for both of them because it seemed the Porsche Macan EV was still some way off. They had previously tried a Jaguar I-Pace back in 2018, but that was short lived due to the “dire software interface” / “dire inefficiency of the vehicle and the range anxiety ”.

They were clearly sceptical going into this purchase and the first video is their initial reaction after 10 days of owning the Model Y:

Tesla Model Y Long Range 10 day initial impressions review England UK

Some direct quotes from the video:


This transformation is a story we’ve heard many times over, but we sometimes forget and it’s good to be reminded from time to time….and coming from a die-hard petrolhead I think it carries more weight. He articulates his thoughts quite well and it’s interesting to see the transformation play out and the change in his thinking over a relatively short timeframe.

Tesla Model Y Long Range 3 month 4,000 mile U.K. review GB


A few months in and he’s selling his Porsche 911 because he never uses it anymore…bearing in mind the Model Y is his wife’s car!

Tesla Model Y England U.K. - what next? 2nd EV?



This kind of story continues to happen all around the world and each one of these new ‘converts’ spreads the story to their friends and family.

I’m not worried about demand and Tesla has plenty of cards to play to keep that demand exceeding production for many years to come…
What a great story, thanks! I can relate 100.

As some may recall a few years ago now, we ended up selling her VW Beetle followed by a near perfect '63 Buick Convertible that I personally restored for 40 yrs (back to a friend / previous owner anyway). But since I do all my own repair work, I got tired of playing Mechanic when this very cool Model 3 was parked next to it. And the biggest aha was our first EV road trip and not having to prepare for all the possible breakdowns, fluids, tools etc. This transition wears on your mental model of transportation and the world.

One more time... this was the exact day Mr. Buick had 2 new problems on it's hands. I never drove it again, and the lifters were my last feat. It ran perfect, one pump in the morning is all to let the choke engage. A bored out 401 and a 2-speed Dynaflow (it doesn't shift, one gear was all you needed, used for racing because of this). I can actually rebuild these but I have no clue how to change the brake fluid on a Tesla. I bought the Floor Jack adapter, at least I can transfer my tire knowledge, maybe some touch-up paint, that's about it. And do the wipers every wear out on these?

1671041278462.png
 
I’m really loving this price action. I feel like it’s going to help me retire a year or two earlier than 59.5 when my Roth becomes fully available. I just got my Model S paid off. I live in my mom’s basement and have a good stable job, so at these prices 90% of my net income will be going towards buying TSLA. \:p/ What an amazing opportunity.
 
And on Friday I'll get my couch back, finally. So we have already passed the bottom because I always miss them. The Rally has officially started! :D
Nope. I have to wait until first trading day after 01 Jan 2023 to buy more TSLA via my tax free savings account.

I’m sure the stock will stay low until the day the Q4 numbers come out. Which will be a day before I buy more TSLA.
 
It looks as though Elon might have been selling TSLA this morning, and perhaps all week to fund expenses for his new toy.

Not a chance that this was Elon selling during yesterday's 175M share volume day. The steep dive started in the Pre-Market at 09:15 (Elon never sells in the Pre-Market). Then it continued at an accelerated pace once Options started trading at the Open. Look at the Intraday Options volume. Two such charts were posted here yesterday.

TSLA.2022-12-13.09-30.png


Yesterday was a bear raid, pure and simple. Attempts to finger Elon for the blame ignore the obvious: this Market is being manipulated.