Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

[unk45]

It's people having no idea how anti-trust works...

Or maybe people actually knowing that it is quite easy for high market share to be considered prima facie evidence of anti-competitive behavior. Tesla is clearly targetted just as is SpaceX. As evidence consider Amazon reseller contracts being considered such, Apple's App Store conditions referred to as such,
The Supercharger evolving dominance is easy to view in that light.

We should be realistic in that political will can produce definitions that can make behavior become actionable.
That has already happened:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/business/tesla-racism-lawsuit.html?unlocked_article_code=2PvOnc1b5v_ke6A63CgkfNBxhNEpKOrgcODCcNnmkSynH_M0J8wlG2yRBGJ6vuNS1rHdCWdFi6SfT0evcAmPwMGRQmRBDGSML31BfLqrRYSWxgcULorvMRzvUSRoWpX8ecfZ8sXriiflEzJ94q5XciN-2YdITQFI6uJewiER6qq_6mE1fXkODGqyd1sTA5VLJLiCi5cd1ihvTl2Mhf8ZUVl71iW3fudFjSVPpXb4bWgAkjqdd-6k_88B8FFaXFcqjiSH64yIK3_Ixw1M3WdQcTxfoLE2YwRR2YQtHb3RuE6AMsAieC22w1Odef7Pp6sTZG0rwHIhFfTUmF9FtpT7&smid=url-share

Regardless of the eventual outcome following appeals this obviously violated several traditional limitations of such suits, not least being that the plaintiff had never been employed by Tesla.

Now, considering anti-trust actions, any study of recent cases will reveal that several of Tesla successes can be construed to be anti-competitive, including pricing power, refusal to sell through dealers, using reservations as sales and service points serving nearby USA urban areas otherwise prohibited to them...and more.

This is NOT intended that such actions should be taken or that they would be meritorious were an impartial arbiter have decision power.
The legislative history of the Sherman anti-trust Act is instructive, pointed directly at J P Morgan's favorite device.:

Sherman Anti-Trust Act (1890)

EnlargeDownload Link Citation: Act of July 2, 1890(Sherman Anti-Trust Act), July 2, 1890; Enrolled Acts and Resolutions of Congress, 1789-1992; General Records of the United States Government; Record Group 11; National Archives. View All Pages in the National Archives Catalog View Transcript...

www.archives.gov

The Clayton Act and much later Hart-Scott-Rodino have made sheer political will the real limitation of antitrust prosecution:
antitrust-laws

This post is a warning to those who imagine Tesla can long continue to dominate BEV's as it has done, much less BEV charging.
The future for TSLA will be bright, but nothing monopolistic can or will happen.

Fundamentally that is why Tesla gives free patent licensing with 'good faith', allows competitors access to Superchargers and offers to share technology.
Tesla is not so naive as are many of us.

Confusion: we really shoudlstop talking about how good it will be for Tesla to drive others out of business. That is very, very dangerous rhetoric and is harmful to the Tesla mission and our own interests.

 

[BioSehnsucht]

I think there are several regularly posting here in an attempt to blame Elon specifically without supporting evidence
whom may have spent significant time in their youth playing this game from Initech. (re: Office Space)

The fact that Lose is misspelled on the mat makes me a little crazy.

I want to say that technically Initech didn't invent it, but we all know that being a tech company, Tom's employee contact would have stipulated that any inventions belong to the company regardless of whether it was invented at or for work.

 

[jerry33]

Confusion: we really shoudlstop talking about how good it will be for Tesla to drive others out of business. That is very, very dangerous rhetoric and is harmful to the Tesla mission and our own interests.

Agreed, but Microsoft did all those things (and worse) and they don't seemed to have been harmed any.

 

[Drumheller]

That's OK, the more mis-information the MSM spread, the more edge we have in our investing and trading decisions

That's only true if there is a truth reckoning at some point that brings the investment to where it would be without the misinformation. If the misinformation can successfully keep the value of the investment suppressed for the duration of your investing years, then you never realize the true value of the investment. What would TSLA be valued at today if every media publication had always been truthful?

 

[insaneoctane]

Fun to hear....

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711747477081297313

 

[MC3OZ]

Or maybe people actually knowing that it is quite easy for high market share to be considered prima facie evidence of anti-competitive behavior. Tesla is clearly targetted just as is SpaceX. As evidence consider Amazon reseller contracts being considered such, Apple's App Store conditions referred to as such,
The Supercharger evolving dominance is easy to view in that light.

We should be realistic in that political will can produce definitions that can make behavior become actionable.
That has already happened:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/business/tesla-racism-lawsuit.html?unlocked_article_code=2PvOnc1b5v_ke6A63CgkfNBxhNEpKOrgcODCcNnmkSynH_M0J8wlG2yRBGJ6vuNS1rHdCWdFi6SfT0evcAmPwMGRQmRBDGSML31BfLqrRYSWxgcULorvMRzvUSRoWpX8ecfZ8sXriiflEzJ94q5XciN-2YdITQFI6uJewiER6qq_6mE1fXkODGqyd1sTA5VLJLiCi5cd1ihvTl2Mhf8ZUVl71iW3fudFjSVPpXb4bWgAkjqdd-6k_88B8FFaXFcqjiSH64yIK3_Ixw1M3WdQcTxfoLE2YwRR2YQtHb3RuE6AMsAieC22w1Odef7Pp6sTZG0rwHIhFfTUmF9FtpT7&smid=url-share

Regardless of the eventual outcome following appeals this obviously violated several traditional limitations of such suits, not least being that the plaintiff had never been employed by Tesla.

Now, considering anti-trust actions, any study of recent cases will reveal that several of Tesla successes can be construed to be anti-competitive, including pricing power, refusal to sell through dealers, using reservations as sales and service points serving nearby USA urban areas otherwise prohibited to them...and more.

This is NOT intended that such actions should be taken or that they would be meritorious were an impartial arbiter have decision power.
The legislative history of the Sherman anti-trust Act is instructive, pointed directly at J P Morgan's favorite device.:

Sherman Anti-Trust Act (1890)

EnlargeDownload Link Citation: Act of July 2, 1890(Sherman Anti-Trust Act), July 2, 1890; Enrolled Acts and Resolutions of Congress, 1789-1992; General Records of the United States Government; Record Group 11; National Archives. View All Pages in the National Archives Catalog View Transcript...

www.archives.gov

The Clayton Act and much later Hart-Scott-Rodino have made sheer political will the real limitation of antitrust prosecution:
antitrust-laws

This post is a warning to those who imagine Tesla can long continue to dominate BEV's as it has done, much less BEV charging.
The future for TSLA will be bright, but nothing monopolistic can or will happen.

Fundamentally that is why Tesla gives free patent licensing with 'good faith', allows competitors access to Superchargers and offers to share technology.
Tesla is not so naive as are many of us.

Confusion: we really shoudlstop talking about how good it will be for Tesla to drive others out of business. That is very, very dangerous rhetoric and is harmful to the Tesla mission and our own interests.

In relation to the mission, Tesla moving as fast as they can should provide an additional incentive for others to move fast.

It is the same for building cars or chargers, one runner coming fast out of the blocks provides and incentive for others to get moving.

As simple defence is that nothing stopped others building cars and chargers.

And additional defence is that at least as far as cars are concerned, the Chinese are doing something similar.

Toyota and the Japanese seem to have recently stirred into action..

The fastest runner doesn't need to slow down and allow others to catch up, the chasers need to make the effort.

IMO the mission provides a good excuse to be a tough competitor, but all runners need a fair chance.

 

[Phobi]

Tesla (TSLA) Prices now match a Toyota Corolla

Goods delivered. Bravo

 

[Speedr117]

Or maybe people actually knowing that it is quite easy for high market share to be considered prima facie evidence of anti-competitive behavior. Tesla is clearly targetted just as is SpaceX. As evidence consider Amazon reseller contracts being considered such, Apple's App Store conditions referred to as such,
The Supercharger evolving dominance is easy to view in that light.

We should be realistic in that political will can produce definitions that can make behavior become actionable.
That has already happened:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/04/business/tesla-racism-lawsuit.html?unlocked_article_code=2PvOnc1b5v_ke6A63CgkfNBxhNEpKOrgcODCcNnmkSynH_M0J8wlG2yRBGJ6vuNS1rHdCWdFi6SfT0evcAmPwMGRQmRBDGSML31BfLqrRYSWxgcULorvMRzvUSRoWpX8ecfZ8sXriiflEzJ94q5XciN-2YdITQFI6uJewiER6qq_6mE1fXkODGqyd1sTA5VLJLiCi5cd1ihvTl2Mhf8ZUVl71iW3fudFjSVPpXb4bWgAkjqdd-6k_88B8FFaXFcqjiSH64yIK3_Ixw1M3WdQcTxfoLE2YwRR2YQtHb3RuE6AMsAieC22w1Odef7Pp6sTZG0rwHIhFfTUmF9FtpT7&smid=url-share

Regardless of the eventual outcome following appeals this obviously violated several traditional limitations of such suits, not least being that the plaintiff had never been employed by Tesla.

Now, considering anti-trust actions, any study of recent cases will reveal that several of Tesla successes can be construed to be anti-competitive, including pricing power, refusal to sell through dealers, using reservations as sales and service points serving nearby USA urban areas otherwise prohibited to them...and more.

This is NOT intended that such actions should be taken or that they would be meritorious were an impartial arbiter have decision power.
The legislative history of the Sherman anti-trust Act is instructive, pointed directly at J P Morgan's favorite device.:

Sherman Anti-Trust Act (1890)

EnlargeDownload Link Citation: Act of July 2, 1890(Sherman Anti-Trust Act), July 2, 1890; Enrolled Acts and Resolutions of Congress, 1789-1992; General Records of the United States Government; Record Group 11; National Archives. View All Pages in the National Archives Catalog View Transcript...

www.archives.gov

The Clayton Act and much later Hart-Scott-Rodino have made sheer political will the real limitation of antitrust prosecution:
antitrust-laws

This post is a warning to those who imagine Tesla can long continue to dominate BEV's as it has done, much less BEV charging.
The future for TSLA will be bright, but nothing monopolistic can or will happen.

Fundamentally that is why Tesla gives free patent licensing with 'good faith', allows competitors access to Superchargers and offers to share technology.
Tesla is not so naive as are many of us.

Confusion: we really shoudlstop talking about how good it will be for Tesla to drive others out of business. That is very, very dangerous rhetoric and is harmful to the Tesla mission and our own interests.

Agreed, so a duopoly or tripoly then (ala iOS and Android, Verizon, AT&T, T Mobile).

 

[Chunky Jr.]

Interesting... Tesla now offering wraps for $7500+. The actual wrapping happens at participating service centers, not at the factory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711897694803792253

here's a link to Tesla's page to see them and order...

https://shop.tesla.com/product/8V6UDET9AWB5FJKHO1P3

 

[Chunky Jr.]

Interesting... Tesla now offering wraps for $7500+. The actual wrapping happens at participating service centers, not at the factory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711897694803792253

here's a link to Tesla's page to see them and order...

https://shop.tesla.com/product/8V6UDET9AWB5FJKHO1P3

I wouldn't be surprised if they have these for Cybertruck too.

 

[Blue horseshoe]

Interesting... Tesla now offering wraps for $7500+. The actual wrapping happens at participating service centers, not at the factory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711897694803792253

here's a link to Tesla's page to see them and order...

https://shop.tesla.com/product/8V6UDET9AWB5FJKHO1P3

It shouldn't be too difficult to offer a one-off custom wrap for a premium. Cybertrucks are gonna be

 

[TN Mtn Man]

Ideally sandcasting works without a super large Gigapress, mostly because they don't have one.

If this is right, the shipment is headed for the die-shop, which makes sense but doesn't explain why it is staged close to the main factory.. But there could be a simple explanation like paperwork.

We did see those super strong foundations being built in the die-shop.

I really look forward to learning more about this. Sandcasting the raw die parts makes sense, a lot less material to remove than starting with solid sections. But if they do so on site, they have a lot of resources tied up that would get very limited use. Would take a good sized remelt furnace for the steel involved, the crucible and handling equipment, sand handling and core making, sand removal and recycling, etc. All for a process that would (presumably) get limited use. Unless of course the begin sand casting some of their iron/steel parts on site as well to better utilize the equipment. The other factor-sand castings typically should "season" and sit for some significant period of time to stabilize before final machining-the larger the part, the more so. Not real conducive to a quick turn die. Maybe they are investing in heat treating equipment as well to accelerate the process.

All of this still means that they will need the equipment to produce the patterns for the mold in the first place, a further investment. Regardless-looking forward to just what Tesla has in mind for this.

 

[MC3OZ]

I really look forward to learning more about this. Sandcasting the raw die parts makes sense, a lot less material to remove than starting with solid sections. But if they do so on site, they have a lot of resources tied up that would get very limited use. Would take a good sized remelt furnace for the steel involved, the crucible and handling equipment, sand handling and core making, sand removal and recycling, etc. All for a process that would (presumably) get limited use. Unless of course the begin sand casting some of their iron/steel parts on site as well to better utilize the equipment. The other factor-sand castings typically should "season" and sit for some significant period of time to stabilize before final machining-the larger the part, the more so. Not real conducive to a quick turn die. Maybe they are investing in heat treating equipment as well to accelerate the process.

All of this still means that they will need the equipment to produce the patterns for the mold in the first place, a further investment. Regardless-looking forward to just what Tesla has in mind for this.

I am a bit sceptical about the Reuters reporting. Giant castings can only be made once the larger Gigapress is on site. However, they could be preparing and testing the molds.

If this way of making molds works for casting, there is a good chance it also works for stamping..

The sand mold needs to hold its shape, perhaps some type of resin is used to do that.

The sand mold can be constructed by a form of 3D printing, IMO if it was viable that is the approach Tesla would take.

From a quick Google, aluminium and steel have lower melting point than sand. So it might be possible to initially sand cast test versions of the cast part, then later sand cast steel molds to make the cast part in a Gigapress. They would need to do some machining after the sand casting

 

[bruce4000]

Tesla (TSLA) Prices now match a Toyota Corolla

Goods delivered. Bravo

Apparently some of the commenters are saying the Corolla is better than a Tesla even if same price ….. not even sure how to respond.

 

[Chunky Jr.]

Apparently some of the commenters are saying the Corolla is better than a Tesla even if same price ….. not even sure how to respond.

saying a Corolla is better than a Tesla is an emotional statement, not a rational one. No reason to respond.

 

[2daMoon]

Apparently some of the commenters are saying the Corolla is better than a Tesla even if same price ….. not even sure how to respond.

Please, do share the details about how the Corolla is better, if you would be so kind.

...might be one possible response.

 

[Etna]

Interesting... Tesla now offering wraps for $7500+. The actual wrapping happens at participating service centers, not at the factory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711897694803792253

here's a link to Tesla's page to see them and order...

https://shop.tesla.com/product/8V6UDET9AWB5FJKHO1P3

Tesla encourages customization in China with wrapping service launch

Tesla has launched an in-house car wrap service at some of the company’s delivery centers in at least five Chinese cities. The service will be available for all cars across the company’s fleet in China. A post from Tesla’s Customer Service page on Weibo stated that the company would launch a...

www.teslarati.com

Because but only because things are done differently in China, this post may remain. NOT discussion about it, however.

Kinda could see this coming. And I agree Cybertruck is screaming for it.

 

[Dutchie]

Interesting... Tesla now offering wraps for $7500+. The actual wrapping happens at participating service centers, not at the factory.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1711897694803792253

here's a link to Tesla's page to see them and order...

https://shop.tesla.com/product/8V6UDET9AWB5FJKHO1P3

Pretty steep price. I had my wrap done at a local detailed for way less.

 

[TN Mtn Man]

Why do people say nonsense like this? Just being successful is not an illegal monopoly or anti-trust violation, even if it puts all the competitors out of business.

I would think it would depend on the motivation and zealousness of whatever government agency were to try to make a case of monopoly, and the degree to which the business and it's executives was considered in favor by that government. Standard Oil and AT&T were attacked with anti-trust laws and broken up, simply for being successful, competitive businesses. They moved quickly to enter new markets and answer customer needs. Offered their products at prices that their competition couldn't match. And were highly vertically integrated, allowing the same economic advantages Tesla employs. Anti-trust laws were written to be vague and subjective. Even a casual examination of the number of attacks on Tesla, SpaceX and Elon personally by our government should at least make such a concern justified.

 

[TN Mtn Man]

Agreed, but Microsoft did all those things (and worse) and they don't seemed to have been harmed any.

I'd question that. Microsoft was prosecuted for violating anti-trust laws.

United States v. Microsoft Corp. - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org