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Yeah, but even if it is 10% of $1.25M that is way more than they can make on a car today.

My biggest concern is the size of the market. I think some are assuming a large % people will give up their personal car and move to robotaxi. I can tell you I am not one of them. Yeah, I might use for a night out or a trip to the airport but I will not give up my personal car even if the robotaxi is free.
I hear you, but I think it will be a mix of demographics, economics, and personal choice. I am an aging baby boomer. I just took a look at the 2020 US Census, and there is a nice graphic that shows quite a large number of people who would be likely candidates for RT by 2030. (Yes I realize it’s not a linear move from one age bracket to another, as mortality rates play into this.) It would be interesting if there are any studies that show willingness/interest in driverless vehicles broken by age, income, personal interest. And there will undoubtedly be other factors that come into play for other countries.

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Do you believe this? If I were to go to my wife's High School classes and tell them what you wrote since I am sure that the generation you are talking too. Will they embrace this or laugh me out of the room?
Depends whether your wife is a student or a teacher. If she’s a student then you might be in a community where the kids’ll want to keep their pickups. If she’s a teacher then you may be in a community where, like most of America (even in Texas 😅), the kids are perpetually on their phones, are used to being driven by the parental units and will likely prefer robotaxis.
 
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I'd argue NONE of us on this forum have any clue how far off we are but the fact that there is an announcement 6 months away leads me to believe that the engineers at Tesla realize how close they are. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and yes I realize Elon's track record with timelines is less than great.

I'll admit, I'm probably starved for some good news and I'm probably a bit more positive that some. I'm hungry

Cheers to the longs.

Hokay.

First off, I'm going to claim I've got chops. Background in RADAR, integrated circuits, system software, firmware, circuit board design, diagnostic code, lots of different assembly languages, and have part of groups, sometimes the leaders of said groups, involved in bringing big, hairy piles of hardware and software to fruition and proft-making status. Not to mention solid work on DSPs and control theory. Over the last bunch of years have specialized in troubleshooting down to the naked transistors or whatever bent and broken pieces of gear returned from the field. And fixing, or attempting to fix, the problems that made said gear bent and broken so It Wouldn't Happen Again.

I'm your basic DC-to-daylight guy when it comes to electronics (and, no, I'm not kidding about that), as well as strange software corners that most people do not venture into.

Which means.. When something is malfunctioning, I usually have, or get, a half-assed idea as to what's bedeviling whatever piece of hardware comes my way. And that, very definitely, has included FSD.

What I'm a-telling you: There's been a step change in FSD with the 12.x series. I've seen the car halt to allow other traffic to come through; I've seen it, when other traffic has halted for it, for it to go through, and it's been doing this like a human. That's not something seen, AT ALL, in the previous versions of FSD.

Are there bugs? Yup. In my life, there's always been bugs. Such is life. But the bugs are much, much smaller now.

Further, in the progression from 12.1 through 12.3.3, the improvements have been, compared to what's come before, astounding.

Will the improvements continue on this trend? Durned if I know: I'm not writing the code. People like to complain about Elon and "2 weeks": But, in large part, He Gets There.

There's one snake in the undergrass: To my mind, Elon exhibits the characteristics of a semi-drugged, no brakes individual. On the days when he talks financials and engineering, he's very, very good. When he's doing People Stuff.. not only is it bad, but it's getting worse over time. So.. the question is whether's Elons slowly progressing meltdown will affect his ability to make decent engineering judgements before FSD gets released. If he and the Tesla engineering team (and you got to bet with this 8/8/2024 date the engineering team had to be involved) make that date, then the stock price is going to the moon.

And, one final thing: Wall Street lives and dies by the future, absolutely not only in the present. There's Reasons why there's that phrase, "Past performance is no guarantee of future results." That works both ways, though: Most people take it as a warning that good performance in the past isn't going to happen in the future. Well, I'm here to mention that a poor FSD in the past is no guarantee against good FSD in the future. Somebody has to succeed for the first time at anything, don't-cha-know.
A step change doesn’t mean it’s robotaxi ready. Tesla needs like 10 step changes to get there.

And someone has to be first but that might be in 2050 and after Tesla shareholder value gets wiped out because Tesla blew a 5-7 year lead chasing stupid stuff instead mass producing cheap cars, vans, work vehicles, and so forth…

Everyone reading this thread and downvoting me I s salty because they don’t want to hear the truth: if model 2 is materially delayed for robotaxi we are closer to 5 million cars in 2030 instead of 20. And Tesla valuation starts trading like a car company which would make it sub $100. That’s what’s on the line if robotaxis don’t work.

And guess what?

No mention by Tesla at all with integrating audio or having some visual communication system which to replicate “humans” is critical for many edge cases. (You can’t *sugar* on LiDAR and say humans don’t use that and ignore what humans do use.)

Who would ride a plane ✈️ if a death occurs in 1 in 10,000? No one. And first death from robotaxi will make cruise controversy look like nothing. Talking 20% stock drop. President commentary. Prosecution against Elon. Doesn’t matter how bogus it is Elon now lives in politics land where facts don’t matter it’s all narrative.


Assuming 0 people ever die in robotaxi (lol), Who thinks Tesla is ready for legal liability of all accident types because no insurance company is touching this with a 100 foot pole.

These are the hard truths no one here admits. And you are all going to lose sooo much money 💰.

Just remember you were warned and don’t commit suicide.

Elon has screwed you over. Sooner you own up to it the less money you will lose 🤷‍♀️ I saw this and bailed last year at $230-$250. Held out hope stupidly that an aggressive cybertruck can bring volume growth despite the breadcrumbs pointing the opposite.
 
My take:

RT is M2. They just don't osborne themself.
They will even first sell the M2 (the version of RT with a steering wheel) to train the RT.
Believing this hopium means

1) you think the quotes from internal Tesla emails are fabricated which opens them up to major lawsuits

2) somehow m2 comes out before robotaxi despite robotaxi having a product unveil day and m2 not

3) ignorant Walter Isaac Bok…the dude who literally followed Elon around over a year 🤣

What is this place? Are you guys listening to yourselves 🤣
 
Believing this hopium means

1) you think the quotes from internal Tesla emails are fabricated which opens them up to major lawsuits

2) somehow m2 comes out before robotaxi despite robotaxi having a product unveil day and m2 not

3) ignorant Walter Isaac Bok…the dude who literally followed Elon around over a year 🤣

What is this place? Are you guys listening to yourselves 🤣
With all due respect, you come across Salty and *sugary* at the same time.
 
I was just reading one of the interior pages of my vehicle manual (this excerpt happened to be in Portuguese). This is relevant for those concerned that most Tesla vehicles would be unsuitable as a Robotaxi given the lack of auto-closing doors.

For those not aware, every Tesla since 2014 has self-closing doors, not just Model X. Verbatim, from my manual (translated from Portuguese to English by Yours Truly):

"Every Tesla manufactured since 2014 comes Robotaxi-equipped with self-closing doors. To enable the auto door-closing feature:

1. Remove all babies and squirrels from around the vehicle.
2. Ensure your Full-Self-Driving (Supervised) driver mode setting is set to "Aggressive".
3. Engage Full-Self-Driving (Supervised).

437 kW of power will be applied to the vehicle's drive system automatically. Your Tesla will execute a confident right turn, followed by a confident left turn. You will notice that your Tesla's doors are now fully closed. Should any door remain open, remove the squirrel or baby from the door opening, then engage the feature again.

I know you are joking, but would surprise me if that is one way to close them, you don't need that much acceleration to close a open door, anyone can test (gonna do that in a bit)

If FSD deems it safe with no VRU or obstacles nearby, why not? Not for every situation, but in the rare case of someone leaving the doors open? Best part is no part
 
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I think people doing robotaxi valuations get way too binary in their modelling.
Sure, there is potentially revenue from robotaxis in cities, with the density to support it, and where regulations allow, and for people willing to 'risk' a self driving car.
But actually the real final impact of this is way, way larger.
  • Once you have taken a few robotaxi rides when on holiday, would you EVER trust any other driver assist when you buy your next car?
  • Robotaxis common use will persuade more people to choose the FSD option when buying a new Tesla. Take-rate will rise.
  • Every robotaxi is a highly visible billboard to advertise the brand.
  • Robotaxi data will make FSD better and safer, as a benefit to everyone who owns a Tesla with FSD.
  • Robotaxi implies flawless summon and autopark. The possibility for me to exit my car and have it go find a space is worth a LOT to me :D.
Even if robotaxis start off in just a few cities, in a handful of states, and only in the US, the impact on Tesla as a company will be way, way beyond any actual revenue that they bring in.
With any luck they reveal M2 and RT at the same time, and we get a date for first shipments of both. I am very very pleased that I diamond-handed this stock and didn't 'sell and wait to re-buy' as so many people advise. Stock wont move at all on monday, market manipulators will see to that. But they cant keep it down for long.
 
I know you are joking, but would surprise me if that is one way to close them, you don't need that much acceleration to close a open door, anyone can test (gonna do that in a bit)

If FSD deems it safe with no VRU or obstacles nearby, why not? Not for every situation, but in the rare case of someone leaving the doors open? Best part is no part

You guys won't believe how well this works, didn't even need to move 5 m for it to close smoothly, and maybe quarter throttle, barely anything more than a regular take off

This is how robotaxi will deal with it for sure 😁
 
Are you kidding? It's being trained right now with FSD v12.3.3. They've been training it for many years now. 😎
Maybe "training" was the wrong word. Maybe. I'm not sure exactly how a new model is "fitted" with FSD. I assume that it needs at lest some real-world data and testing from the different camera placement. And getting that real-world data would mean the new Gen 3 vehicle would risk exposure before the reveal.

If FSD could be moved from one car model to the other without real-world data then Cybertruck would already have FSD.
 
Maybe "training" was the wrong word. Maybe. I'm not sure exactly how a new model is "fitted" with FSD. I assume that it needs at lest some real-world data and testing from the different camera placement. And getting that real-world data would mean the new Gen 3 vehicle would risk exposure before the reveal.

If FSD could be moved from one car model to the other without real-world data then Cybertruck would already have FSD.
I guess you're implying that only Model X real world data is used for Model X FSD and Model 3 real world data is used for Model 3 FSD, etc.
I don't believe this is true, but I'm no expert on this topic. Perhaps @Discoducky has some insight on this matter.
 
A step change doesn’t mean it’s robotaxi ready. Tesla needs like 10 step changes to get there.

And someone has to be first but that might be in 2050 and after Tesla shareholder value gets wiped out because Tesla blew a 5-7 year lead chasing stupid stuff instead mass producing cheap cars, vans, work vehicles, and so forth…

Everyone reading this thread and downvoting me I s salty because they don’t want to hear the truth: if model 2 is materially delayed for robotaxi we are closer to 5 million cars in 2030 instead of 20. And Tesla valuation starts trading like a car company which would make it sub $100. That’s what’s on the line if robotaxis don’t work.

And guess what?

No mention by Tesla at all with integrating audio or having some visual communication system which to replicate “humans” is critical for many edge cases. (You can’t *sugar* on LiDAR and say humans don’t use that and ignore what humans do use.)

Who would ride a plane ✈️ if a death occurs in 1 in 10,000? No one. And first death from robotaxi will make cruise controversy look like nothing. Talking 20% stock drop. President commentary. Prosecution against Elon. Doesn’t matter how bogus it is Elon now lives in politics land where facts don’t matter it’s all narrative.


Assuming 0 people ever die in robotaxi (lol), Who thinks Tesla is ready for legal liability of all accident types because no insurance company is touching this with a 100 foot pole.

These are the hard truths no one here admits. And you are all going to lose sooo much money 💰.

Just remember you were warned and don’t commit suicide.

Elon has screwed you over. Sooner you own up to it the less money you will lose 🤷‍♀️ I saw this and bailed last year at $230-$250. Held out hope stupidly that an aggressive cybertruck can bring volume growth despite the breadcrumbs pointing the opposite.
So basically, you don't believe that Tesla is anywhere close to having the ability to run a robotaxi service.

Oh no. FSD doesn't use audio. Deaf people don't use audio either. They drive just fine.

Oh no. Tesla can't take on the liability. Uber drivers take on this liability through their insurance companies. And Tesla runs its own insurance company.

Oh no. Tesla might have to endure the negative press from a fatal accident. This has already happened. Been there. Done that.

Oh no. There will be a death every 10,000 somethings. Because -- airplanes? Clearly you are just making stuff up.

If you want to argue intelligently that Tesla is not close to starting a robotaxi network then you need to first look at Waymo. Waymo has robotaxis today. So what is Waymo doing that Tesla can not do?
 
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I guess you're implying that only Model X real world data is used for Model X FSD and Model 3 real world data is used for Model 3 FSD, etc.
I don't believe this is true, but I'm no expert on this topic. Perhaps @Discoducky has some insight on this matter.
No. I wasn't implying that at all. But there is a reason why Cybertruck doesn't have FSD yet.

As I understand it, most of the stack is not dependent upon a particular model of car and its camera placement. But a small part of it is. And that small part would need training or emulating or something. Even if real-world data is not needed for training of the new platform, real-world testing would be needed.

And I would think it might be difficult to pull off a demo without at least some testing and exposing the new vehicle to public sightings.

But I'm out of my depth here and, like you, I would love to hear what @Discoducky has to say.
 
They can’t. It’s MATERIAL. Ducks need to be set in a row before revealing MATERIAL.

Don’t you get it? This is why the media does stunts like this. And look at all the suckers here that should know better.

Engage your brains people and wait a beat before having an emotional breakdown. Once you have ALL the information, then form your opinion, and take action appropriate to your opinion and particular reality. OMG already! Every bloody single time people losing their 💩 without all the information.

And there it is. Rueters is LYING. What a shock. 🙄And all you people who lost your minds can now apologize to the rest of us long term investors.

Yeah, won’t hold my breath. But your names are on record and any further postings from you can be taken with more salt than previously.
Krugerrand it would be great if you could post these names so we could put them on ignore so it won't take so long to go through all the post.
BTW, I just got home from being driven home from Key West to New Jersey in my model Y with FSD 12 (1300 miles) only had to steer backing into Chargers and checking into hotels. I won't do it again until they have it perfected because it was boring having to watch the road all the time, I'd rather be reading a book or watching a movie
 
Note: $10B likely includes both CapEx and R&D expenses.
$250B in cars though, that's externally funded 😁
Pretty much. It has been staggeringly difficult to make generalized self-driving work, requiring all that you describe above and more. The investment in training compute, gigantic data pipelines and vast video storage will be well over $10B cumulatively this year. But that is nothing compared to the ~quarter trillion dollars in cars on the road with Tesla-designed AI inference computers being trained by their drivers.
 
Semi - "convoy technology is something we can do *now*"

Lol
You made me think of a "hybrid" service - a new model compared to Uber - that Tesla could apply to Semi but also Robotaxi: assisted onboarding / offboarding.

Hire staff, or partner with enterprises, (or even Optimus?) to help people access (e.g. install app) and load a Robotaxi (e.g. luggage) at select locations, like airports and hotels. Then the Robotaxi does the heavy-lifting drive without paid driver.

Likewise with Semi, just as with pilots and tugboats, have a driver jump in when it arrives near a factory to park Semi into the drive bay after it's driven several hundred miles without a labour cost.

Use staff to load an Amazon-like Robo-van with packages that drives itself to houses for drop-off. You're not there as scheduled to receive the package? You pay a redelivery fee for tomorrow's run.

Let's admit we can't know exactly how autonomy in all its forms could be a different, potentially lucrative model compared to everything offered today which requires a full-time driver.