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Tesla, TSLA & the Investment World: the Perpetual Investors' Roundtable

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Another great teardown video by Caresoft, brought to you by Autoline. Different style of presentation compared to Sandy Munro. If I had to choose, I think I prefer these over Sandy's. This one discusses the evolution of the body in white and gigacastings between the Model Y and CT. They mention this is yet another evolutionary step working towards the unboxed manufacturing process.

The CT is an engineering marvel. Structural integrity, different metal compounds, depending on strength need, massive castings. Every time I watch one of these videos, I can't help but wonder and smile at what the legacy manufacturers must be thinking. I bet their pants are getting heavy.

Well worth a watch.

I hope it's better than their pack video...
The power conversion system and EVSE negotiate incoming power before it is supplied. It doesn't recieve AC/DC and then react.
Wade mode does not take 30 minutes to start up. It lasts for up to 30 minutes. (Reportedly takes 10 to start, but that seems long given air tank).
That power connection is the second rear motor feed for Beast, not for range extender.
They start by talking safety, but then pick at the cell insulation with bare hands.
4680 vent is on the cell bottom due to its design, the pack vent strategy is the cart, not the horse.
The Kapton looking layer on the cover is likely due to the exposed charge port connections, and clearance/ creepage requirements, not water intrusion.
 
What does Elon mean here “now it is validation “ that is the constraint

Is it the new in-house models ie v 13 etc “need validation before release “ slowing down the updates ?

I guess this is further a reminder that the version(s) that Elon and team are using are very advanced from ours....my FSD is pretty good, but I wouldn't be that hard pressed for an intervention. Maybe we're back to semantics of what is an "intervention".
 
What does Elon mean here “now it is validation “ that is the constraint

Is it the new in-house models ie v 13 etc “need validation before release “ slowing down the updates ?

Could be a couple things:
The inference based validation which run the NN against all test data. Twice as many tests take twice as long unless you double the hardware. And using vehicle FSD computers means approximately real time testing. For example: 1 million 15 second clips = 4,200 hours = 174 days so a farm of 200 AP units can do that in a day. But scale up and add in artificial noise for robustness and you can multiply permutations by quite a bit.

Real world validation:
If you only encounter a certain problem every 10,000 miles, how many miles do you need to collect to be confident that the problem is fixed?
Now, what if the problem situation only occurs every 100,000?
The rarer the issue (march of 9s) the longer the validation cycle (assuming fleet size growth is slower than occurrence decrease). For internal testing, the validation fleet is fairly constant.
 
What does Elon mean here “now it is validation “ that is the constraint

Is it the new in-house models ie v 13 etc “need validation before release “ slowing down the updates ?

The validation was explained in depth by Ashok on the last earnings call.

It's the process of "tiered" testing of a newly trained NN's (hundreds of them) by:
- running millions of clips against it, therefore checking if the new NN's would perform equally, better or worse than the last big release;
- then running simulated clips against it in closed loop
- then giving it to QA testers (specialized Tesla employees with these test builds driving real world miles)
- then giving it to 2.000 employees (not specialized, they just commute probably)
- then releasing it to Omar and other happy few
- then releasing it in waves to Tesla customers.

This is the validation process that takes a long time. If this is their bottleneck, that's good news. It means that whilst they are testing certain builds they can already train newer builds and look for improvements. Also, every step of the way they throw out the weaker performing NN's to get to a release build that has the best overall performance. (I'm sure some NN's are better in situation X and others in situation Y, then it's a matter of deciding which situation is handled less wrong.)

See the detailed explanation below (in full context).

Martin Viecha

The third question is, what is the current assessment of the pathway toward regulatory approval for unsupervised FSD in the U.S.? And how should we think about the appropriate safety threshold compared to human drivers?

Lars Moravy -- Vice President, Vehicle Engineering

I can start. There are a handful of states that already have adopted autonomous vehicle laws. These states are paving the way for operations, while the data for such operations guides a broader adoption of driverless vehicles. I think Ashok can talk a little bit about our safety methodology, but we expect that these states and the work ongoing as well as the data that we're providing will pave a way for a broad-based regulatory approval in the U.S. at least and then in other countries as well.

Elon Musk -- Chief Executive Officer and Product Architect

Yeah. It's actually been pretty helpful that the autonomous car companies have been cutting a path through the regulatory jungle. So, that's actually quite helpful. And they have obviously been operating in San Francisco for a while.

I think they got approval for City of L.A.. So, these approvals are happening rapidly. I think if you've got at scale, a statistically significant amount of data that shows conclusively that the autonomous car has, let's say, half the accident rate of a human-driven car, I think that's difficult to ignore because at that point, stopping autonomy means killing people. So, I actually do not think that there will be significant regulatory barriers, provided there is conclusive data that the autonomous car is safer than a human-driven car.

And in my view, this will be much like elevators. Elevators used to be operated by a guy with relay switch. But sometimes, the guy would get tired or drunk or just make a mistake and shear somebody in half between floors. So, we just get an elevator and press button, we don't think about it.

In fact, it's kind of weird if somebody is standing there with a relay switch. And that will be how cars work. You just summon the car using your phone. You get in, it takes you to a destination. You get out.

Vaibhav Taneja -- Chief Financial Officer

You don't even think about it.

Elon Musk -- Chief Executive Officer and Product Architect

You don't even think about it, just like an elevator. It takes you to your floor. That's it. Don't think about how the elevator is working or anything like that.

And something I should clarify is that Tesla will be operating the fleet. So, you can think of like how Tesla, think of it as combination of Airbnb and Uber meaning that there will be some number of cars that Tesla owns itself and operates in the fleet. There will be some number of cars and then there'll be a bunch of cars where they're owned by the end user. That end user can add or subtract their car to the fleet whenever they want, and they can decide if they want to only let the car be used by friends and family or only buy five-star users or by anyone at any time they could have the car come back to them and be exclusively theirs like an Airbnb.

You could rent out your guest room or not, any time you want. So, as our fleet grows, we have 7 million cars going -- 9 million cars going to eventually tens of millions of cars worldwide. With a constant feedback loop, every time something goes wrong, that gets added to the training data and you get this training flywheel happening in the same way that Google Search has the sort of flywheel, it's very difficult to compete with Google because people are constantly doing searches and clicking, and Google is getting that feedback loop. So, the same with Tesla.

But at the scale that is maybe difficult to comprehend, but ultimately, it will be tens of millions. I think there's also some potential here for an AWS element down the road where if we've got very powerful inference because we've got a Hardware 3 in the cars, but now all cars are being made with Hardware 4. Hardware 5 is pretty much designed and should be in cars, hopefully toward the end of next year. And there's a potential to run -- when the car is not moving to actually run distributed inference.

So, kind of like AWS, but distributed inference. Like it takes a lot of computers to train an AI model, but many orders of magnitude less compute to run it. So, if you can imagine a future, perhaps where there's a fleet of 100 million Teslas, and on average, they've got like maybe a kilowatt of inference compute. That's 100 gigawatts of inference compute distributed all around the world.

It's pretty hard to put together 100 gigawatts of AI compute. And even in an autonomous future where the car is, perhaps, used instead of being used 10 hours a week, it is used 50 hours a week. That still leaves over 100 hours a week where the car inference computer could be doing something else. And it seems like it will be a waste not to use it.

Martin Viecha

Ashok, do you want to chime in on the process and safety?

Ashok Elluswamy -- Director, Autopilot Software

Yeah. We have multiple tiers of validating the safety for in any given week, we train hundreds of neural networks that can produce different trajectories for how to drive the car, replay them through the millions of clips that we have already collected from our users and our own QA. Those are like critical events, like someone jumping out in front or like other critical events that we have gathered database over many, many years, and we replay through all of them to make sure that we are net improving safety. We have simulation systems that also try to create this and test this in close loop fashion. And some of this is validated, we give it to our own QA networks.

We have hundreds of them (QA networks) in different cities, in San Francisco, Los Angeles, Austin, New York, a lot of different locations. They are also driving this and collecting real-world miles, and we have an estimate of what are the critical events, are they net improvement compared to the previous-week builds. And once we have confidence that the build is a net improvement, then we start shipping to early users, like 2,000 employees initially that they would like it to build, they will give feedback on like if it's an improvement there or they're noting some new issues that we did not capture in our own QA process. And only after all of this is validated, then we go to external customers.

And even when we go external, we have like live dashboards of monitoring every critical event that's happening in the fleet sorted by the criticality of it. So, we are having a constant pulse on the build quality and the safety improvement along the way. And then any failures like Elon alluded to, we get the data back, add it to the training and that improves the model in the next cycle. So, we have this like constant feedback loop of issues, fixes, evaluations and then rinse and repeat.

And especially with the new V12 architecture, all of this is automatically improving without requiring much engineering interventions in the sense that engineers don't have to be creative and like how they code the algorithms. It's mostly learning on its own based on data. So, you see that, OK, every failure or like this is how a person chooses is how you drive the intersection or something like that, they get the data back. We add it to the neural network, and it learns from that trained data automatically instead of some engineers saying that, oh, here, you must rotate the steering wheel by this much or something like that.

There's no hard inference conditions. Everything is neural network. It's pretty soft. It's probabilistic, so it will adapt probabilistic distribution based on the new data that it's getting.

Elon Musk -- Chief Executive Officer and Product Architect

Yeah. And we do have some insight into how good the things will be in like, let's say, three or four months because we have advanced models that are far more capable than what is in the car, but have some issues with them that we need to fix. So, they are like, there'll be a step change improvement in the capabilities of the car, but it will have some quirks that are -- that need to be addressed in order to release it. As Ashok was saying, we have to be very careful in what we release to the fleet or to customers in general.

So, if we look at, say, 12.4 and 12.5, which are really -- could arguably even be Version 13, Version 14 because it's pretty close to a total retrain of the neural nets in each case, substantially different. So, we have good insight into where the model is, how well the car will perform in, say, three or four months.

Ashok Elluswamy -- Director, Autopilot Software

Yeah. In terms of scaling loss, people in the community generally talk about model scaling loss where they increase the model size a lot and then they have corresponding gains in performance, but we have also figured out scaling loss and other access in addition to the model side scaling, making also data scaling. You can increase the amount of data you use to train the neural network and that also gives similar gains and you can also scale up by training compute, you can train it for much longer and on more GPUs or more dojo nodes that also gives better performance, and you can also have architecture scaling where you count with better architectures for the same amount of compute produce better results. So, a combination of model size scaling, data scaling, training compute scaling and the architecture scaling, we can basically extrapolate, OK, with the continue scaling based at this ratio, we can predict future performance.

Obviously, it takes time to do the experiments because it takes a few weeks to train, it takes a few weeks to collect tens of millions of video clips and process all of them, but you can estimate what is going to be the future progress based on the trends that we have seen in the past, and they're generally held true based on past data.
 
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I have been on this thread for a while and have read every post for years. I posted here for a while until the mods complained about the number of posts and said not to post unless there was new information to share. I stopped posting so I would not add to the growing number of posts. I thought I was doing my part to be helpful and compliant.

I learned so much from some of the excellent participants on this forum that have come and gone. This used to be the place to go to get facts about Tesla and TSLA. I truly enjoyed spending hours each day reading every post and contemplating long term investor strategy. I made it a point to leave feedback as my way of participating.

I am sad to say that I will no longer be reading this thread. It has turned into a safe haven for traders, shorts, and trolls. Mod policies support this. It is no longer worth the time to wade through post after post of negativity and complaints about Elon. The same nonsensical posts over and over again by the same traders, shorts, and trolls. It’s too bad because I miss the thread this used to be. I will also no longer financially support TMC.

Wish all of the friends I have made here the very best. Let me know if this thread ever becomes useful again.

I agree, some great posters have already left or stopped posting and no doubt more will follow. It will be left with Fudsters and bots arguing with posters who think they are debating with someone in good faith. The mods here have been great at keeping things on topic but they seem to have a blind spot for some reason on this issue.
 
They won't need to report disengagements as long as safety drivers are present. At that point, it is just like an Uber driver today who happens to use FSD.

Not at all. Please read the regulation posted on the California's DMV website where it contains all the definitions related to this. Also have a look at Waymo's reported disengagements, where all cars had safety drivers present. Essentially a safety driver in an autonomous test vehicle has a completely different status than a regular driver in a L2 supervised FSD vehicle.

I wanted to add links to all the info, but the California DMV's website is down at the moment.
 
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... I'm sad to say that I will no longer be reading this thread. It has turned into a safe haven for traders, shorts, and trolls. Mod policies support this. It is no longer worth the time to wade through post after post of negativity and complaints about Elon. The same nonsensical posts over and over again by the same traders, shorts, and trolls. It’s too bad because I miss the thread this used to be. I will also no longer financially support TMC.

Wish all of the friends I have made here the very best. Let me know if this thread ever becomes useful again.
I joined around the same time you did. I don't think the average quality of posts 'declining' is fair. Between 2018 and 2021, Tesla became the most valuable auto manufacturer in the world and the stock jumped ~20x. I used to post charts showing TSLA passing the other OEMs and charts showing how the Model 3 and Y were coming to be top 10 vehicles sold worldwide, including ICEs. Now that the Y is the top selling vehicle in the world, there's no need for sharing that info any more, it's moot. It was easier to be a bull in those days!

Since - oh, the Twitter purchase anyone? - the last two years, TSLA is down ~40% while the market is up about 25%. That's basically terrible performance, no matter how you rationalize it ("but it's not Tesla's fault!!", yes, yes, much of it is Tesla's / Elon's fault IMO), and worthy of some investor HODLer frustration. I'm not saying we should all be bears now - I'm very excited by Optimus and energy (less gaga-convinced about FSD - show me the money). But you can't fault us for not spouting more rose-coloured posts. It ain't 2020 anymore, friend.

Stick around for the eventual Overture, eh? It'll be sweet, oh so sweet.
 
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Regarding the lidar purchase
Might be for manufacturing. Lidar is popular for autonomous guided carts in manufacturing for collision avoidance. With the new tunnel(s) going in, they might prefer a higher performance sensor package than standard 2D types, especially with the 17 degree tunnel slopes.
1,000 (500 bidirectional) automatic sleds would be a useful number. Rather than the cars driving themselves to the new end of line facility, they could put them on sleds. That reduces risk and allows material delivery on the return leg.
 
Regarding the lidar purchase
Might be for manufacturing. Lidar is popular for autonomous guided carts in manufacturing for collision avoidance. With the new tunnel(s) going in, they might prefer a higher performance sensor package than standard 2D types, especially with the 17 degree tunnel slopes.
1,000 (500 bidirectional) automatic sleds would be a useful number. Rather than the cars driving themselves to the new end of line facility, they could put them on sleds. That reduces risk and allows material delivery on the return leg.
2100 lidars purchased, 4 lidars per validation vehicle, a fleet of 5-10 validation vehicles per country: that's not a lot of lidars in fact...
 
Not at all. Please read the regulation posted on the California's DMV website where it contains all the definitions related to this. Also have a look at Waymo's reported disengagements, where all cars had safety drivers present. Essentially a safety driver in an autonomous test vehicle has a completely different status than a regular driver in a L2 supervised FSD vehicle.

I wanted to add links to all the info, but the California DMV's website is down at the moment.
You are assuming a rollout in California. I'm not.
 
2100 lidars purchased, 4 lidars per validation vehicle, a fleet of 5-10 validation vehicles per country: that's not a lot of lidars in fact...
Ground truthing the vision system should not be region dependent though (unless there is some seriously strange road surface). Plus, Elon's post indicates that use case mat have been eliminated.

It's remotely possible they are for purpose built multiperson Boring Company vehicles (developed under contract) where the controlled environment lends itself to a much simpler sensor setup that needs only collision avoidance. Function over optics.
 
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Nothing burger but it should really only be for 2.5 days, since one of those days is a German Holiday and production is slated to resume sunday evening.
Shouldn’t German production be going “balls to the wall” to make up for two weeks shutdown during the arson event?