Tesla voiding warranties over Hawaii PV Program?

[Gu$ G]

Today, I was told by my Tesla SA they might void my warranty if I pursue Hawaii's newest PV battery storage program. Is anyone participating in this program (see below)? Is anyone familiar with the PW 10 year warranty TOS?

Hawaiian Electric Company's (HECO) "Battery Bonus" program was introduced just over a year ago. It provides a cash incentive that covers about 50% of the cost of each PW enrolled in the program. It also provides a monthly bill credit that seems to range between $50-100. Finally, you're still eligible to remain in your existing solar rate program which includes grandfathered NEM and the current CGS+ rate plans.

Tesla says they reviewed the program and decided they didn't want to participate. They refuse to apply on behalf of customers and threatened me that if I applied after my install was complete they might void my warranty. They are concerned the program will risk degrading the PW too fast and leave them with liability for failing PW's within the warranted 10 years.

The program is a curious one. You are reimbursed based on a "committed capacity" that you agree to discharge over a set 2 hour period every night for ten years. The capacity to commit is volunteered by the customer and determines the reward. For example, if you commit 5kw (10kwh over 2 hours), you receive a check for $4250. You also receive a credit for the kwh exported to the grid that matches the current retail rate. Finally, you receive a $25 bill credit (5kw*$5).

I think there's also a loop hole that others haven't been able to confirm. "Committed capacity" is actually the amount of energy discharged from the battery during the 2 hour window. Not the energy exported to the grid. It appears the program allows customers to use their energy on site. If their on site demands can't meet the committed export rate, then the rest goes into the grid (with associated credits still provided).

From HECO, "These perks will help move Hawaii toward its goal of 100% clean energy by 2045 and add more renewable resources to the grid as Hawaiian Electric retires generators fired by fossil fuels."

All in, this program is looking better and better the more I study it. I just haven't found anyone else that really understands it. The biggest cost seems to be the wear and tear on the battery. Hence the subject of this post. Can Tesla really void the warranty for discharging their PW nightly?

 

[Operator64]

They may call it ”usage outside intended purpose” or “used for commercial purpose” any number of things similar To that. I would read your paperwork that covers the warranty that will be the only thing that will give guidance on what can be done as far as a cancellation.
Some consumers may see $$$$ and attempt to offer 80% of their batter nightly just to make money, that’s where that could create a warranty issue.

 

[Tam]

Today, I was told by my Tesla SA they might void my warranty if I pursue Hawaii's newest PV battery storage program. Is anyone participating in this program (see below)? Is anyone familiar with the PW 10 year warranty TOS?

Hawaiian Electric Company's (HECO) "Battery Bonus" program was introduced just over a year ago. It provides a cash incentive that covers about 50% of the cost of each PW enrolled in the program. It also provides a monthly bill credit that seems to range between $50-100. Finally, you're still eligible to remain in your existing solar rate program which includes grandfathered NEM and the current CGS+ rate plans.

Tesla says they reviewed the program and decided they didn't want to participate. They refuse to apply on behalf of customers and threatened me that if I applied after my install was complete they might void my warranty. They are concerned the program will risk degrading the PW too fast and leave them with liability for failing PW's within the warranted 10 years.

The program is a curious one. You are reimbursed based on a "committed capacity" that you agree to discharge over a set 2 hour period every night for ten years. The capacity to commit is volunteered by the customer and determines the reward. For example, if you commit 5kw (10kwh over 2 hours), you receive a check for $4250. You also receive a credit for the kwh exported to the grid that matches the current retail rate. Finally, you receive a $25 bill credit (5kw*$5).

I think there's also a loop hole that others haven't been able to confirm. "Committed capacity" is actually the amount of energy discharged from the battery during the 2 hour window. Not the energy exported to the grid. It appears the program allows customers to use their energy on site. If their on site demands can't meet the committed export rate, then the rest goes into the grid (with associated credits still provided).

From HECO, "These perks will help move Hawaii toward its goal of 100% clean energy by 2045 and add more renewable resources to the grid as Hawaiian Electric retires generators fired by fossil fuels."

All in, this program is looking better and better the more I study it. I just haven't found anyone else that really understands it. The biggest cost seems to be the wear and tear on the battery. Hence the subject of this post. Can Tesla really void the warranty for discharging their PW nightly?

It's an abuse because Tesla is not in the deal.

Other abusing programs to make money with the inclusion of Tesla then go ahead, abuse all you want!

Tesla Powerwall Owners Can Sell Energy Back To The Grid

Tesla Powerwalls let owners store energy generated from solar panels, and a new program even lets owners sell this energy back to the electrical grid.

insideevs.com

 

[sunwarriors]

It's an abuse because Tesla is not in the deal.

Other abusing programs to make money with the inclusion of Tesla then go ahead, abuse all you want!

Tesla Powerwall Owners Can Sell Energy Back To The Grid

Tesla Powerwalls let owners store energy generated from solar panels, and a new program even lets owners sell this energy back to the electrical grid.

insideevs.com

I think it's really this....Tesla doesn't get a cut so no point for them. If you get paid a lot in the program, it maybe still worth it and just get new batteries if it cycles too much and there is too much degradation. One problem maybe if you run into problems before the 10 year warranty and you don't get any support now and you have very big/heavy paperweights. Tesla PWs are a pretty closed systems and probably won't work without talking back to Tesla regularly I think.


There are some folks here on Tesla VPP in CA and Tesla has a say at the table and probably $$ from PG&E to make it worth their while.

 

[Vines]

I want someone to challenge Tesla on this. There is no way they can justify allowing their batteries on their own VPP plan but then eliminate a warranty for a program that only discharges similar to what the house does.

What is the actual difference to a battery between participating in this program vs plugging your EV in for those same hours?

If this in true, I am supremely disappointed in Tesla working against its mission statement, because it doesn't net them more money.

 

[Operator64]

I want someone to challenge Tesla on this. There is no way they can justify allowing their batteries on their own VPP plan but then eliminate a warranty for a program that only discharges similar to what the house does.

What is the actual difference to a battery between participating in this program vs plugging your EV in for those same hours?

If this in true, I am supremely disappointed in Tesla working against its mission statement, because it doesn't net them more money.

That would be difficult since you have someone an “SA” that said it “might” happen and nothing more, however the warranty paperwork should shed a tremendous amount of light on what will happen

 

[CrazyRabbit]

YES
I would think they should just hold you to the discharge warranty, not the unlimited warranty for home use. There is also a hidden cost of participating, you loses 10% on the round trip efficiency. So they should pay you a higher export rate during the discharge period.

 

[jboy210]

I want someone to challenge Tesla on this. There is no way they can justify allowing their batteries on their own VPP plan but then eliminate a warranty for a program that only discharges similar to what the house does.

What is the actual difference to a battery between participating in this program vs plugging your EV in for those same hours?

If this in true, I am supremely disappointed in Tesla working against its mission statement, because it doesn't net them more money.

If I understand the OPs posting and references, one difference is the frequency of discharge of your battery and who controls that discharge.

The Hawaii plan says : "Customers who participate must use and/or export electricity stored in the battery at the committed amount on a firm two-hour schedule specified by Hawaiian Electric between 6 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. (for example, 6:15 p.m. to 8:15 p.m.) daily including weekends and holidays. The initial commitment is through December 31, 2023 on Oahu and through Dec. 31, 2024 on Maui."

The VPP plan is used much more sporadically and under the battery owner's control. I had 5 VPP days and discharge to the grid for less than 3 hours each day this year. So a total of fewer than 15 hours of additional discharge under grid operator control. This is considerably less and will likely have less of an impact on the lifespan of my batteries. Also, for whatever reason I choose, can go to the Tesla app and opt out of the VPP using my batteries for that day or part of the day.

As far as vehicle charging goes. most of the people I know who have Powerwalls and drive EVs do a mix of home, work, and Supercharging/Fast Charging.

 

[Gu$ G]

Well I am in currently working with HECO to commit up to 10 kw to this program. In doing so, I should receive an $8500 one time refund, $50/month credit, and NEM rate for any energy provided to the grid during this 2 hour window. The program is effectively a 3 year trial period, with some of the terms to be renegotiated by HECO at that time. There are ways to opt out at any point as well.

There is also a hidden cost of participating, you loses 10% on the round trip efficiency. So they should pay you a higher export rate during the discharge period.

I *think* I am going to be receiving a slightly higher rate. I read that enrolled customers are still eligible to receive any incentive from their current energy plan. For CGS+, I get something like 10c/kwh. If that is additive to the market rate export credit provided then I think this is pretty fair.

I was planning on just consuming the energy on site by charging my EVs during this window. If I am getting a NEW (or greater) credit for export then I'm way less worried about that.

 

[Gu$ G]

To me, the bottom line is the utility company discharges my battery much less. I would assume this might factor into Tesla's decision.

I'm not familiar with VPP but this explanation makes sense to me.

To be fair, the Tesla SA told me that as solar installers they were not *participating* in the program. Meaning they would not agree to cooperate with HECO to help a new customer purchase equipment from Tesla and enroll it in this program. He said they reviewed the terms and thought it was a bad deal for the customer. He said your contractor is the only one that can sign you up for the program.

The way I read the program, I can enroll my current system on my own. When I suggested I could enroll myself now (with my existing equipment) or later (after they complete their install) he went on to tell me the stuff about risking and/or voiding my warranty.

I'm also afraid there's something I'm missing. I haven't found anyone who really understands this program. I think everyone assumes your obligated to discharge your battery by exporting to the grid for 2 hours. They don't recognize the NEM credit and/or option to just consume the energy onsite.

Then again, the program has taken-off in popularity it would appear. In the past 3 months the number of people enrolled appears to have doubled. If your a new customer to this program and haven't enrolled, it looks like the incentive is going to be about half what I mentioned above moving forward. I should be grandfathered into the terms presented in this thread because I applied a month and a half ago.

 

[sunwarriors]

If this is anything like SGIP, do do your own research since I've had CEOs of a solar installer tell me wrong stuff with SGIP when they should know better (one would assume them being the whole frigging owner of the install company (and not a super small one neither)).

Hard to beat getting large upfront credits no matter what assuming it doesn't void warranties and I sorta like what Hawaii is doing with their proposals vs. what we have here in CA, but I think HI sees benefits with clean energy and HECO seems more in partnership with the people while our IOUs are just pure $$ grabs sadly.

I think Hawaii, as a state/society/culture, being on an Island and all that, have a more sense to together vs. any/most other states in the union since folks are so close and you see the same people at Costco, Zippys, whatever all the time.

Good luck and share, maybe we can learn something here in CA.

 

[Gu$ G]

I think HI sees benefits with clean energy and HECO seems more in partnership with the people while our IOUs are just pure $$ grabs sadly.

I actually have a friend that works at HECO and I believe he either worked closely in developing this program, or works in the same office as the guys who did. It was a pretty grassroots effort to design something that worked for everyone. I am going to try to reach out to him asap to get more details.

I misunderstood the terms at first. I really thought my only reimbursement was going to be the upfront credit and then a few bucks a month. In exchange, I thought I had to export all of it to the grid for no credit. That seemed bogus because I would be stuck paying for half a PW that essentially has no arbitrage value to me. It would still be useful in a power outage, but cost/benefit definitely not there for me.

Now that I see the NEM like finer points and realized I *think* I can consume the energy onsite, I'm much more excited about this program.

 

[Redhill_qik]

The Hawaii plan says : "Customers who participate must use and/or export electricity stored in the battery at the committed amount on a firm two-hour schedule specified by Hawaiian Electric between 6 p.m. to 8:30 p.m. (for example, 6:15 p.m. to 8:15 p.m.) daily including weekends and holidays. The initial commitment is through December 31, 2023 on Oahu and through Dec. 31, 2024 on Maui."

I think that this might be the biggest sticking point. How are you going to get the Tesla Powerwall to do this without Tesla implementing the software controls to handle this? The time based controls in the Tesla app are with 30 minute values, so if get lucky and your 2 hour period starts at either :00 or :30 then maybe you can use Export Everything to make this happening, but if you get assigned :15 or :45 then you can't. Also, Export Everything is available for everyone.

Speaking of Export Everything, is Tesla now voiding all of your warranties for enabling this? If not then how is that different than this Hawaiian plan? Sounds like an easy win in an arbitration case if Tesla doesn't allow a warranty claim.

 

[cwied]

I don't see how you can participate if Tesla isn't involved. There isn't a user setting that will export a fixed amount of power during a certain period. This currently would have to be initiated from Tesla's servers, like the VPP is.

 

[jboy210]

I don't see how you can participate if Tesla isn't involved. There isn't a user setting that will export a fixed amount of power during a certain period. This currently would have to be initiated from Tesla's servers, like the VPP is.

That is a good point.

 

[ucmndd]

I can't imagine any reasonable excuse for Tesla to deny warranty claims based on charging/discharging within the specifications of the product. The warranty has an aggregate throughput limit (37.8 MWh I think) when used in situations like this, but that's still a complete charge/discharge every day for 7+ years.

 

[cali8484]

I don't see how you can participate if Tesla isn't involved. There isn't a user setting that will export a fixed amount of power during a certain period. This currently would have to be initiated from Tesla's servers, like the VPP is.

So, PW can't be commanded to enable and disable exporting via API? The scheduling could be done externally.

 

[jjrandorin]

From what it sounds like, its the Tesla Sales Advisor (Tesla energy sales advisor) who said "that program might void the warranty". Just like a few other responders in this thread, I dont see how they could do that. I do see where they could enforce their "charged from the grid" warranty that @ucmndd (and maybe someone else) mentioned in this thread, but discounting the entire thing?

I really feel we have a situation of "a salesperson" speaking "out of their @#$%%$#%" so to speak.

Now, whether it can be signed up for separately or not, and if it would be able to be implemented without tesla, is a completely separate thing. There is a CA program for battery reimbursement called "SGIP" which also sort of "looked" like a person could do it themselves if they put in enough effort, and I seem to remember a couple people doing so, but others tried and hit a dead end due to the requirements.

This could be like that, where it "appears" to be something a person could sign up for, but they really cant complete all the prerequisites (unless they perhaps have a solar PV installation license or something). I dont know this or anything, pure speculation.

I also dont know if "Im going to schedule it in an unsupported api" even if possible, would be enough as a homeowner to provide the guarantee this appears to want of discharging.

 

[Gu$ G]

A couple clarifications. I'm going to try to do this myself, enrolling my 2 existing PW. Simultaneously, I'm going to upgrade my solar through Tesla to expand my on site storage. Because the program is closed to new applications right now, I likey won't explore this with Tesla any further unless it becomes necessary.

Also, the committed capacity for Battery Bonus is based on how much the battery is discharged. Not necessarily how much is exported to the grid. My plan was just to charge a Tesla from 6-8.

Is there a maximum kw that a residential system can typically export? What is this limited by? I've applied for 10 kw but I don't know if that's reasonable. I don't want to burn my house down.

The way I was reading the program, HECO has a way of measuring and monitoring the discharge rate of enrolled batteries. This is different than just measuring what is exported. Obviously the standard equipment is measuring this and reporting it in the app. Where is that and is there a reasonable way for HECO to access it?

 

[jjrandorin]

The way I was reading the program, HECO has a way of measuring and monitoring the discharge rate of enrolled batteries. This is different than just measuring what is exported. Obviously the standard equipment is measuring this and reporting it in the app. Where is that and is there a reasonable way for HECO to access it?

Its a neurio device, which is an off the shelf device but the tesla one seems to have some specific firmware so I dont think buying one off the shelf works (but am not 100% on that).

My local utility (SoCal Edison) has something called "green button" that allows one to share their energy data with a third party, but thats the energy data that the utility knows. I am unaware of how your utility would get information on energy discharge that wasnt discharged to the grid (thus not going out the meter), because you are consuming it yourself, without Tesla providing that data.