I believe they have changed that from what I have read. My CHAdeMO works just fine... but Tesla 100% does not charge when I take it to a Tesla Super Charge station. I have used CHAdeMO 5 or 6 times now with no issues.
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I don't doubt you but FYI I just talked to a tesla rep yesterday and they said 3rd party charging is removed from my car. I haven't tested that. I don't have a chademo adapter but probably will get one now that supercharging is definitely cut from my M3.
Premise for "salvage" titled vehicles is wrong. I've seen so many posts that assume the reason the supercharging/DC fast charging was cut off remotely (and illegally IMO) was out of safety concerns and the the rabbit hole of litigation talk ensues. Here are is the correction to the premise of salvage titled vehicles. I would hope to keep the conversation about the safety of any car, salvage title or clean, to be unique to that specific car, and not a blanket indication of the safety of a car.
IMO the reason Tesla cut off supercharging and/or DC charging is because they can. It gets more Tesla consumers into buying their new cars. They could care less about liability. A burning Tesla on the side of a road might make headlines but they'll be off the hook if it's a salvage title. If they wanted to to they could ask salvage brand owners to sign a disclaimer of liability by Tesla.
1. "salvage" is a branding on the state vehicle title. It means the state has accepted the car as legally driving, likely registered vehicle, safe on state highways.
2. Salvage means an insurance company chose not to pay to repair a car by declaring it a loss and paying out the owner instead. They then go to sell it at an auction lot. The choice to not repair could be as simple as the cost of repairs a certain percentage of the value or the damage is of a type they simply chose not to repair. It does not mean a car can't be repaired and restored. It does not mean an insurance company couldn't fix it for even a small fraction of the value of the car - hence damage to suspension. Insurance companies will choose not to repair a suspension damaged vehicle 100% of the time simply due to risk of potential alignment/service issues that could haunt them. Quarter panel is another example - it's very labor intensive, body shop location specific, purely cosmetic, and not worth the hassle for insurance to deal with. It's easier just to pass these costs to the consumer. Certainly for Tesla the repair involves rivet bonding that few shops can perform within the boundaries of a customer's home.
3. Salvage does not mean there's a safety risk any more than a clean title means there is no safety risk. Any clean title car can be compromised by an owner who drove it over a curb and damaged the fuel system or suspension causing a potential future disaster. Salvage means that something happened to the car at some point and you should look into that before deciding to buy it. That was the intent of the branding by states - to inform the consumer who is about to make a purchase. It was never to allow auto manufacturers to disallow servicing or warrantying them, even though they did. And it was certainly never about allowing manufacturers to remove features from cars they made and sold to consumers at some point in the future at their choosing.
Finally, removing DC charging remotely, without consent from the owner, on a licensed, state sanctioned vehicle is theft. How does anyone not see it as theft? You cannot use the "salvage" argument for that theft. It is irrelevant. Furthermore, Tesla has never stated the reason they removed the ability was due to safety. People just incorrectly go down that rabbit hole. Stop the "safety" talk and start the theft talk.
IMO the reason Tesla cut off supercharging and/or DC charging is because they can. It gets more Tesla consumers into buying their new cars. They could care less about liability. A burning Tesla on the side of a road might make headlines but they'll be off the hook if it's a salvage title. If they wanted to to they could ask salvage brand owners to sign a disclaimer of liability by Tesla.
1. "salvage" is a branding on the state vehicle title. It means the state has accepted the car as legally driving, likely registered vehicle, safe on state highways.
2. Salvage means an insurance company chose not to pay to repair a car by declaring it a loss and paying out the owner instead. They then go to sell it at an auction lot. The choice to not repair could be as simple as the cost of repairs a certain percentage of the value or the damage is of a type they simply chose not to repair. It does not mean a car can't be repaired and restored. It does not mean an insurance company couldn't fix it for even a small fraction of the value of the car - hence damage to suspension. Insurance companies will choose not to repair a suspension damaged vehicle 100% of the time simply due to risk of potential alignment/service issues that could haunt them. Quarter panel is another example - it's very labor intensive, body shop location specific, purely cosmetic, and not worth the hassle for insurance to deal with. It's easier just to pass these costs to the consumer. Certainly for Tesla the repair involves rivet bonding that few shops can perform within the boundaries of a customer's home.
3. Salvage does not mean there's a safety risk any more than a clean title means there is no safety risk. Any clean title car can be compromised by an owner who drove it over a curb and damaged the fuel system or suspension causing a potential future disaster. Salvage means that something happened to the car at some point and you should look into that before deciding to buy it. That was the intent of the branding by states - to inform the consumer who is about to make a purchase. It was never to allow auto manufacturers to disallow servicing or warrantying them, even though they did. And it was certainly never about allowing manufacturers to remove features from cars they made and sold to consumers at some point in the future at their choosing.
Finally, removing DC charging remotely, without consent from the owner, on a licensed, state sanctioned vehicle is theft. How does anyone not see it as theft? You cannot use the "salvage" argument for that theft. It is irrelevant. Furthermore, Tesla has never stated the reason they removed the ability was due to safety. People just incorrectly go down that rabbit hole. Stop the "safety" talk and start the theft talk.
Tesla legal page days nothing about 3rd party charging, only supercharging. "Supercharging" is a meaningless word and is at best a Tesla brand. It says nothing about if it's 3rd party DC charging or not.
Privacy & Legal | Tesla
Privacy & Legal | Tesla
Yeah, get a CHAdeMO and let us know if your allowed to use a DC Fast charger. I bet you will be able to.
Update: I posted a pic of this Tesla document but chose the text instead. See below in red for 3rd party DC charging.
SC-15-00-006 R3 Page 1 of 3
SC-15-00-006 R3
October 7, 2020
Tesla, Inc.
Service Customer Document Model: Vehicle System: Region:
All
00 - Inspection & Service
All
Salvage-Titled Vehicle Notification
Date of Notice:
VIN:
You are hereby notified that the vehicle listed above has been classified as a “salvage-titled vehicle.”
Tesla or the Tesla Approved Body Shop might have used the following resources to confirm whether or not a vehicle is classified as salvaged:
•Government or regulatory agencies
•Results of other internal investigations
•Independent vehicle history agencies (for example, CARFAX)
•Internet forums and vehicle auction sites
For all salvage-titled vehicles:
•Tesla and/or the Tesla Approved Body Shop will not guarantee the safety or operability of salvage-titled vehicles.After a vehicle has been declared a total loss or has been classified as a salvage-titled vehicle, repairs performedto bring a vehicle back into service may not meet Tesla standards or specifications, and any failures, damages, orinjuries occurring as a result of such repairs are solely the responsibility of the vehicle owner.
•All inspections and repairs are at the customer’s expense unless the inspection or repair is performed due to arecall.
NOTE: Repairs due to recalls will be performed at no charge unless the safe repair of the vehicle is prevented either by the condition of the vehicle or by vehicle modifications not made by Tesla. If the Tesla Service Center or the Tesla Approved Body Shop determine that the vehicle is not safe to repair, the recall-related repair will not be performed until the customer has returned the vehicle to a condition that the Tesla Service Center determines is safe to repair.
•Any Tesla limited warranties and extended service agreements for the vehicle are void.
•Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers of the Salvage-Titled vehicle is permanentlydisabled.
NOTE: Once a vehicle is marked as being unsupported or having a salvaged title, Supercharging and/or fast charging through 3rd party chargers is permanently disabled.
•A “Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection” may be performed at the customer’s expense on thevehicle to determine if the high voltage components are safe to work on or access.
•HV related components may not be repaired or accessed by a Tesla Service Center until the vehicle has passedthe Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection. High voltage components include, but are not limitedto, the following:
SC-15-00-006 R3 Page 2 of 3
Roadster
Model S and Model X
Model 3
o Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) heaters
o AC compressor
o Electric motor (drive unit)
o HV battery or ESS internal components
o HV cables
o Charge port inlet
o 400V controller
o PEM (Power Electronic Module)
o Battery heater
o Positive Temperature Coefficient (PTC) heaters
o AC compressor
o Drive unit (front or rear)
o HV battery internal components
o DCDC converter
o HV cables
o Front Junction Box (FJB)
o High Voltage Junction Box (HVJB)
o Chargers
o Charge port
o Drive inverter
o Battery chiller
o AC compressor
o VCFRONT
o Coolant pumps
o Drive unit (front or rear)
o Penthouse internal components
o HV cables, joints, or connectors
o Charge port
o Charge port ECU
NOTE: Only Tesla Service Centers may perform the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection.
For more information about the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection process, refer to TN-18-00-001, “Unsupported Vehicle Policy”.
• Parts availability is not affected. For a Salvage-Titled vehicle:
o Any Unrestricted or Over-the-Counter part may be purchased.
o Restricted parts that are not high-voltage related cannot be sold directly to the customer, but may be installed by the Service Center at customer expense.
o Restricted parts that are high-voltage related cannot be sold to the customer and may not be installed by the Service Center unless the vehicle has passed the “Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection.” After the vehicle has passed the “Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection,” high-voltage related parts may be installed by the Service Center at customer expense.
• To find the status of the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection for a particular vehicle, look up the vehicle in SCA/Warp, and check the “Special Instructions” section.
• If the vehicle has not passed the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection:
o Tesla Service Centers may not perform high voltage system maintenance or service on a salvage-titled vehicle before it has passed a “Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection.”
o Tesla Service Centers may perform services or access systems and components that are not high voltage on a salvage-titled vehicle before it has passed a “Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection.”
o Tesla Approved Body Shops (TABS) may perform services or repairs on salvage-titled vehicles. The body shop may, however, decline to perform any activities on the vehicle, at the discretion of (TABS). If the vehicle has not passed the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection, and TABS does perform activities that involve the high voltage systems, the body shop accepts and assumes liability for all damages and injuries including without limitation all the risks for:
• Injuries to repair technicians that might work on the vehicle
• Damage to body shop tools or equipment
• Damage to the vehicle
o Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers remains disabled.
SC-15-00-006 R3 Page 3 of 3
• If the vehicle has passed the Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection:
o Tesla Service Centers may perform high voltage system maintenance or service on the Salvage-Titled vehicle after it has passed a Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection.
o Tesla Service Centers may perform services or access systems and components that are not high voltage on a salvage-titled vehicle before it has passed a “Salvage-Titled Vehicle High Voltage Safety Inspection.”
o Tesla Approved Body Shops (TABS) may perform services or repairs on salvage-titled vehicles. TABS may, however, decline to perform any activities on the vehicle, at the discretion of TABS.
o Any Tesla limited warranties and extended service agreements for the Salvage-Titled vehicle remain void.
o Supercharging and/or “fast charging” through 3rd party chargers remains disabled.
o The vehicle remains classified as an “unsupported vehicle.”
Refer to TN-18-00-001, “Unsupported Vehicle Policy” for more information.
NOTE: You, the vehicle owner, are required to provide a copy of this notification to any subsequent purchasers of the vehicle.
NOTE: For any questions about Tesla’s Unsupported Vehicles Policy, contact your local Tesla Service Center.
You or Tesla may not want rebuilt cars around but it contradicts with with state laws. If you're going to sell cars in a state you have to comply with those state's laws. Allowing cars to be sold at auction to be rebuilt and then allowing them to be registered, legal, and safe for state roads is the people's decision, not a company's decision. State's want material recycled. They don't want landfills of cars.
"A huge gamble" is also buying any used, clean title car. The salvage branding informs the consumer that something happened to the car that they should look into. That's the whole reason the branding exists. A clean title car may have been in a serious accident but the consumer will never know. Buyer beware in either case. In a way salvage is better because you're getting a better price and you know exactly what happened, or should know. Googling the VIN usually reveals pictures of the wrecked car. It requires some knowledge of body repair, uni-body construction, engine operation and service, and diagnostic equipment operation if you're doing the repair yourself, or knowledge, history, and full disclosure by the person that did the repair. The market is small, not for everyone, but certainly it's not nefarious as you seem to believe.
I side with the consumer and state law has agreed with me. Tesla may chose to ignore that but the spirit of the law is with the consumer.
personal opinion inc....
============================
I personally feel that tesla is 10000% in the right in blocking these cars from their supercharger network, but in the wrong for blocking ALL DC fast charging. If a customer wants to buy a salvage tesla and possibly damage it or themselves with it by fast charging it at some non tesla location, that should be on the customer.
Now, because "its a tesla" regardless of whoever has liability on such an incident, should one happen, its tesla that would take all the bad publicity. Just look at what happens when someone who is not paying attention at the wheel while "driving" then gets into an accident. People rush to post thread after thread making discussion points on "tesla should rename the feature" rather than blaming the person who was not following what they should have been.
So, tesla likely blocks it all because they can. I dont agree that blocking chademo or other dc fast charging is correct, but I do agree with teslas position to not allow supercharging. After all, supercharging (as pointed out) is TESLAS thing, and they can deny service if they want to.
I wonder what would happen if they were pushed on this "block all fast DC charging" situation by someone with deep enough pockets in court? Rhetorical question because it wouldnt be me, and I have less than zero interest in buying ANY salvage car, let alone a tesla, but for those who want to take that chance and know what they are doing, as long as it doesnt endanger public health and safety, they should have at it.
Thing is, I am sure tesla doesnt have a way to guarantee those cars dont endanger public health and safety, without some expensive certification program they dont have the time or resources (or desire) to implement.
Sure, I agree that tesla can deny use of their SC network. That's their business. Cutting 3rd party DC charging is illegal, IMO, not so much because it's obvious that it's none of their business but rather that they over-the-air removed a feature from a vehicle they don't own, without the owners permission or even without notifying the owner.
I want to clarify that the removal of the DC charging feature was outside of a software update. It was a switch they initiated remotely. Who owns my car?
I also disagree with the correlation of a branded title to safety that people so comfortably believe. That is an assumption and a stretch. Blanketing safety and salvage is wrong. It's individual to every car. Same as thinking every clean title car is safe. It's wrong. There's no data to prove salvage vehicles are less safe than clean title cars.
So, you taking Tesla to court on this?
One other thing on "safety". I am not 100% sure that this is Tesla's doing. You should see what local governments are making people do to put powerwalls in their garages for example, even though there is not a single documented instance of them catching on fire or anything.
The rules and regulations around what is required to put battery storage inside a garage is fairly steep.... even though we can park a car with a battery several times larger than powerwalls in a garage with no issue, let alone an ICE vehicle with its flammable gas inside, also no issue.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
The branding of a title is a legal issue, not a practical one.
Tesla takes a legal position on how much/little they will support such a branded title.
They do offer (at owners expense) inspections that may result in Supercharging eligibillty to be restored.
Pretty much take the position that a branded title is damaged goods. They have no interested in supporting such a car.
Same way many insurance companies will not insure a branded title vehicle.
Tesla takes a legal position on how much/little they will support such a branded title.
They do offer (at owners expense) inspections that may result in Supercharging eligibillty to be restored.
Pretty much take the position that a branded title is damaged goods. They have no interested in supporting such a car.
Same way many insurance companies will not insure a branded title vehicle.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
What they have is an inspection process that if passed allows you to pay Tesla to work on/repair the HV system of the car. The form makes it very clear that all DC charging is permanently disabled. (I think it says it in three different places.)
Wrong: "Same way many insurance companies will not insure a branded title vehicle" I have never seen evidence of this. My family's insurance companies, at least 3, have insured branded titles. Branded might mean the value of the car is less so you don't receive much benefit on a claim. As such premiums should be less on a branded but I don't think they are.
Wrong: "They do offer (at owners expense) inspections that may result in Supercharging eligibillty to be restored" See my prior post regarding Tesla service memo SC-15-00-006 R3. The memo states the removal of these features in owner's cars is permanent.
Wrong: "Tesla takes a legal position on how much/little they will support such a branded title." Ok, not wrong, but I just don't know what that means. Taking a legal position and telling customers they're not gonna do this or that is the same thing.
Uncle Paul
Well-Known Member
Every insurance company has their own policies. You might be able to shop for coverage, but it will always depend on your individual circumstances and that specific insurance company. Generally a branded title is a bucket of worms...
Risks go up with branded titles, even those which have been rehabilitated. Both owner and insurance take additional risks with salvage titles.
From Value Penguin..."Cars with salvage titles have been declared a total loss and can’t be driven on public roads, so you can’t purchase insurance for one. However, once a salvage car has been refurbished and tested it can qualify for a rebuilt title — meaning it can be registered, driven and sold."
Most insurance companies offer liability insurance for rebuilt salvage cars, so you can buy as much coverage as needed to drive the vehicle legally.
However, few insurers will sell full coverage insurance for rebuilt salvage cars, as it’s difficult to assess all existing damage to the vehicle."
Not saying it cannot be done, but not something I would not entertain. Lots of collectors have cars with issues. They are willing to assume the risk to feed their passions.
Risks go up with branded titles, even those which have been rehabilitated. Both owner and insurance take additional risks with salvage titles.
From Value Penguin..."Cars with salvage titles have been declared a total loss and can’t be driven on public roads, so you can’t purchase insurance for one. However, once a salvage car has been refurbished and tested it can qualify for a rebuilt title — meaning it can be registered, driven and sold."
Most insurance companies offer liability insurance for rebuilt salvage cars, so you can buy as much coverage as needed to drive the vehicle legally.
However, few insurers will sell full coverage insurance for rebuilt salvage cars, as it’s difficult to assess all existing damage to the vehicle."
Not saying it cannot be done, but not something I would not entertain. Lots of collectors have cars with issues. They are willing to assume the risk to feed their passions.
This is not about safety at all, imo. The "safety" is an excuse. I believe this is absolutely Tesla's doing because they can make more money if prospective customers buy a new car rather than a used, branded title car. A broken suspension or quarter panel dent that causes a total loss should not allow Tesla to send an over-the-air removal of DC charging or even to stop supporting the vehicle. The state's have allowed total loss vehicles to be rebuilt and re-titled with a branding. These state practices conflict with what Tesla is doing. States want cars recycled. Tesla does not. Shame on them. They would lose in court, imo.
But once a vehicle gets a salvage title, the manufacturer doesn't have anymore liability. So even if someone rebuilds an ICE car and then it blows up, they can't go and blame the manufacturer for some flaw.
Wrong. False. There's no law that allows manufacturers to stop supporting a vehicle that has a branded title. Manufacturers have had success in not allowing warranties but there's no law that allows them to outright deny it. In fact states require the emissions warranty to maintain regardless of branding. There's no law that allows manufacturers off the hook on liability. You can blame the manufacturer for whatever you want. The branded title will not protect them. Branded title just means something happened to the history of the car that a prospective buyer should look into and that at some point in the car history it was declared a loss by an insurance company and resold at auction. That is all. Anything else and you're making it up.
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