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The catastrophe of FSD and erosion of trust in Tesla

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You make good points on a regular basis then you the post above.
All I have to do is flip on the TV and see advert after advert for an electric this or an electric that (cars) and it is obvious to even the most casual observer that something in the world has fundamentally changed.
Absolutely, Tesla has massively influenced the strategies of almost every car maker in the world at this point. There is zero dispute of that.

But has that fundamentally "changed" the world? "Changed" implies global change has already occurred. Not GOING to occur (which it eventually will), but how specifically has Tesla CHANGED the world already in an impactful way? When I think of "world", Im considering the entire globe...mankind...

The % of electric cars overall globally, of every brand, sold was less than 10% total. Over 91% are still ICE...

In the USA? The numbers are worse..~99% are ICE..
 
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Except those features are explicitly not intended for use where cross traffic exists

The manual explicitly tells you that.

So judging their behavior with pedestrians and cross traffic makes no sense.

As I've explained more than once now.

Indeed, it's not very inspiring people keep misusing the system then insisting the system is the problem.
LOL, yes, you have explained more than once that TACC is not intended for use where cross traffic exists. Your explanation is as inaccurate as it always has been.

Says the Owner's Manual:
Traffic-Aware Cruise Control is primarily intended for driving on dry, straight roads, such as highways.

"is primarily intended" does not mean "is only intended."

But regardless, even if what you said were true, all it means is that the system is incompetent.

To review some points and counterpoints:
  • TACC brakes for no reason on a 4-lane road with cross-traffic --> Well you're not supposed to use TACC on that kind of road!
  • TACC slams on the brakes when it sees a shadow on the Interstate --> You must have misjudged, it did not slam on the brakes. Some guy once had a G-meter to prove that his car didn't slam on the brakes; therefore yours didn't either. And what's the big deal about braking for the shadow of a bridge anyway?
  • But I just want to be able to use cruise control on a regular road --> Oh, just pay $12,000 for FSD and jump through a bunch of hoops to try to get into the beta, then you can have that!
  • FSD beta runs into curbs and bollards --> Oh, well of course it does. The disclaimer explicitly tells you that you shouldn't expect it to work . But it told you to grab the wheel though so what are you complaining about? What do you expect for $12,000 [but trust me, it will work great for cruise control with cross-traffic] ;)
 
LOL, yes, you have explained more than once that TACC is not intended for use where cross traffic exists. Your explanation is as inaccurate as it always has been.

The original discussion was about autopilot and autosteer

Not TACC.

You then chimed in to say you had the same experience as that poster.


I've helpfully attached a picture for you of the thing the OP said and that you said you had the same experience of.

ap.png



Those features are not supposed to be used with cross traffic or pedestrians

I have helpfully attached pictures from the owners manual for you there as well.


donotuse.png




If you can let me know what else you remain confused on I can try and find more pictures to help you out, since words don't appear to be getting the job done.
 
The original discussion was about autopilot and autosteer

Not TACC.

You then chimed in to say you had the same experience as that poster.


I've helpfully attached a picture for you of the thing the OP said and that you said you had the same experience of.

View attachment 808168


Those features are not supposed to be used with cross traffic or pedestrians

I have helpfully attached pictures from the owners manual for you there as well.


View attachment 808169



If you can let me know what else you remain confused on I can try and find more pictures to help you out, since words don't appear to be getting the job done.
LOL. You know full well that:
  • Autopilot is the full suite of features, of which Autosteer is one and TACC is another
  • TACC is what brakes due to cross-traffic, not Autosteer
  • The warning in your helpfully attached pictures is specifically about Autosteer, which is not what brakes for cross-traffic
  • The fact that Autosteer was (or was not engaged) has no bearing on whether it brakes or not
My experience was not using Autosteer. Didn't feel the need to point that out since Autosteer is obviously not the culprit here.

Appreciate the sincere attempt to be helpful, though!
 
The original discussion was about autopilot and autosteer

Not TACC.

You then chimed in to say you had the same experience as that poster.


I've helpfully attached a picture for you of the thing the OP said and that you said you had the same experience of.

View attachment 808168


Those features are not supposed to be used with cross traffic or pedestrians

I have helpfully attached pictures from the owners manual for you there as well.


View attachment 808169



If you can let me know what else you remain confused on I can try and find more pictures to help you out, since words don't appear to be getting the job done.
6289FE9C-3AC4-4B6C-8739-32971F9D16EA.jpeg
 
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LOL. You know full well that:
  • Autopilot is the full suite of features, of which Autosteer is one and TACC is another




  • TACC can be engaged on its own, and has different restrictions than engaging both features

    Autosteer can not be engaged on its own, and thus all of its restrictions apply when driving with it.


    The person to whom I was replying specifically called out Autosteer, while admitting they were using it someplace the manual explictly tells you it's not intended to be used.



    [*]The warning in your helpfully attached pictures is specifically about Autosteer, which is not what brakes for cross-traffic

    The behavior of TACC alone is different than the behavior of having both features engaged as part of autopilot.

    This is most obvious in the difference in max speed limitations for example.



    Again- FSDBeta doesn't have any of the cross traffic issues you describe because unlike the old stuff it is actually intended for use with cross traffic
 
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  • TACC can be engaged on its own, and has different restrictions than engaging both features

    Autosteer can not be engaged on its own, and thus all of its restrictions apply when driving with it.


    The person to whom I was replying specifically called out Autosteer, while admitting they were using it someplace the manual explictly tells you it's not intended to be used.





    The behavior of TACC alone is different than the behavior of having both features engaged as part of autopilot.

    This is most obvious in the difference in max speed limitations for example.



    Again- FSDBeta doesn't have any of the cross traffic issues you describe because unlike the old stuff it is actually intended for use with cross traffic
Eh… see my post above. Your response is very well articulated but inaccurate
 
Eh… see my post above. Your response is very well articulated but inaccurate


How is it inaccurate?

Are these not your words?


As I do not have FSD(beta), I can only comment on the Autosteer(beta) amd it’s poor reaction times with cross traffic


You are reporting an issue with autosteer and cross traffic, are you not? Because that's literally what you said.

Autosteer is explicitly not intended to be used with cross traffic. Per the manual.

That's 100% accurate.


FSDBeta, which you admit you don't have, does not have that problem- because it is intended to be used with cross traffic.
 
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OK, what about plain old emergency braking? I had a car turn left in front of me while I was doing about 60 on a divided 4 lane highway. I had to hit the brakes hard to avoid t-boning them. Car never saw anything, no warning, no braking, nothing. I have collision avoidance set to early.

Only asking here to try to understand the camera's capabilities. Right now, I have a pretty low opinion of them, just due to my actual lived experience.

(no FSD, which should be irrelevant)
 
Can't speak to your specific situation, but unlike ADAS systems, safety ones like AEB are tested by numerous government and safety agencies and Tesla consistently ranks at the top of the charts for that features efficacy and safety.

For example:


IIHS AEB vehicle to vehicle rating for Tesla Model 3- Superior
IIHS AEB vehicle to pedestrian for Tesla Model 3- Superior
 
The variance in behaviour from release to release is also a problem.
It will happily fail to emergency break or alert in situations I'd have expected.
On the other hand I was driving around the block that I've driven probably 1000 times before, and it freaked out beeping and alerting that I was departing my lane of traffic. It somehow lost its mind between the regular lane lines & the left hand side bike lane lines. Again this was a drive I've done 1000 times before and today it lost its mind.

Last last night I made a 75mi trip on a well-marked 4-lane highway.
It usually does weird stuff around HOV lane merges, but this time it made a number of unexpected 10-20mph speed drops where it refused to keep the distance & speed I asked and needed to push the accelerator through. In some cases it was near HOV entry merge lanes but 100s of feet earlier, as if it was using GPS data & off rather than reading lane lines.
 
The variance in behaviour from release to release is also a problem.
It will happily fail to emergency break or alert in situations I'd have expected.
On the other hand I was driving around the block that I've driven probably 1000 times before, and it freaked out beeping and alerting that I was departing my lane of traffic. It somehow lost its mind between the regular lane lines & the left hand side bike lane lines. Again this was a drive I've done 1000 times before and today it lost its mind.

Last last night I made a 75mi trip on a well-marked 4-lane highway.
It usually does weird stuff around HOV lane merges, but this time it made a number of unexpected 10-20mph speed drops where it refused to keep the distance & speed I asked and needed to push the accelerator through. In some cases it was near HOV entry merge lanes but 100s of feet earlier, as if it was using GPS data & off rather than reading lane lines.
which version is this? because 10.12 is the "game changer" and is "fire" and fixes all of this.
 
OK, what about plain old emergency braking? I had a car turn left in front of me while I was doing about 60 on a divided 4 lane highway. I had to hit the brakes hard to avoid t-boning them. Car never saw anything, no warning, no braking, nothing. I have collision avoidance set to early.

Only asking here to try to understand the camera's capabilities. Right now, I have a pretty low opinion of them, just due to my actual lived experience.

(no FSD, which should be irrelevant)
Tesla didn't do particularly well in a 2019 study by AAA. None of the tested cars aced it, but I don't think you could say Tesla was at the top.


We are not sure about the AAA's methodology, but the most striking thing is that the Model 3, which shined in Euro NCAP tests, wasn't able to automatically brake to avoid the collision with the pedestrian in a series of five measurement tests. It's irrational as the car detected dummies from the distance and alerted the driver - the missing action was to simply brake earlier than just ahead of impact.

1653494580998.png
 
This is a weird take given vision-only humans also drive with only visual systems, even in bad weather. And with 4x fewer eyes too.
I don't know about you, but I can't drive in tule fog or white out snow, but I can drive in a lot worse conditions than vision only AP, which gives up in heavy rain, and can't even start to handle a normal snow covered street in the morning on a clear bright sunny day.
 
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I don't know about you, but I can't drive in tule fog or white out snow

Nor would even an L5 car be expected to.

, but I can drive in a lot worse conditions than vision only AP, which gives up in heavy rain, and can't even start to handle a normal snow covered street in the morning on a clear bright sunny day.


You seem to be comparing the current wide release software with a finished RT version.

Even the current FSDBeta does better in bad weather than the public wide release (though it remains far from perfect in it).

But that doesn't offer any explanation why you think the software CAN'T eventually do better still.

It didn't used to be able to do lots of things it does now.



All that said... having some weather restrictions does not prevent robotaxis-- L4 (ie do not EVER require a human driver) vehicles can restrict ODD by weather and still be L4.