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There will be NO HW4 upgrade for HW3 owners

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Elon said multiple times that HW3 would give us L5. What’s better than L5?

Perhaps less expensive for the customer?

Maybe safer for passengers (and thus cheaper for Tesla due to the L5 liability)?

Could be that it would work in more conditions? Wait, no, then it wouldn’t be L5 which is supposed to work in all conditions a human would.

Wonder if it could be a smoother ride L5, like assertive when it needs to be, chill when everyone else is chill, basically driving with traffic and not like a robot.
This is what Elon says verbatim:
"Hardware 3 will not be as good as Hardware 4, but I’m confident that Hardware 3 will so far exceed the safety of the average human. So how do we get ultimately to – let’s say, for argument’s sake, if Hardware 3 can be, say, 200% or 300% safer than humans, Hardware 4 might be 500% or 600%. It will be Hardware 5 beyond that. But what really matters is are we improving the average safety on the road."
Elon Musk kills hope of Tesla retrofitting new Autopilot/Self-Driving hardware

Note how he does not refer to L5 or any levels at all. Plus, Elon's definition of L5 may not necessarily match your definition or the industry's definition in the first place. I've noted his definitions do not match with how some may interpret it: for example when he says "feature complete self driving" he actually means door-to door SAE L2.
Autonomous Car Progress

Even for industry definitions, it can have a huge leeway for performance. See the various L4 companies and how different they perform. Compare for example the two most prominent: Cruise vs Waymo. Cruise has had many incidents where the car would halt in the middle of traffic (even in the middle of intersections) needing a person to come rescue it. Waymo have had much less.
 
If it turns out L3/4+ can only happen for HW4+, it'd be pretty simple and not that costly for them to just refund the difference between EAP and FSD to the set of affected customers on HW3 who actually purchased FSD. Arguably they should do that anyways at some point, because they continually sold it on the promise that it was "right around the corner", yet people have owned cars for years without it coming to fruition. Some have bought FSD, driven for years without it, then given up and sold the car even (and not gotten much value from it on the sale).
 
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Industry always says AVs are 5 years away.

Checkout statements by almost everyone in the industry - from Waymo to VW to Nissan to ... around 2015. They all said we'd have AVs running everywhere by 2020.
very true - but nobody on that list is selling a product for $15k
Some have delivered less capable systems for a great deal less, but those don't have the word "Beta" tagged on at the end either ;)
 
I'm sure I'm not the only one struggling with the decision to purchase FSD on a vehicle they know will be coming with HW3. I ordered a Y in mid-Jan when prices dropped and I added FSD. Now that HW4 release is eminent, and no upgrade path, I have reverted back to EAP (which is still not cheap). I currently have FSD Beta on my '18 3 and purchased FSD back in 2019 when it went on sale. It's okay, but as others have stated in here, not close to what was promised. I have no doubt that HW3 will continue to see incremental improvements, but I'm skeptical it will see major improvements. Just curious if anyone else in here is struggling with this decision as well. Cheers!
Def do not buy the new Model Y. They removed all the ultrasonic sensors around the vehicle that would be useful for parking. Wait for the new model with the new camera placements (putting one in front of the bumper to make up for it). and don't sell the 2019.

As one pointed out, they removed all the wording on the order page a while back, so those of us who traded for a new one in 2022 have no argument except verbal claims made by Musk
 
Many bought the vehicle and purchased FSD as Musk claimed it will be an appreciating asset and make you money over time when you are not using the car. Just returning FSD money does not make up for it..

I think it's quite a stretch to argue for the total cost of the car or it's future appreciation. You still got value out of it as a normal car, and there were never any strong statements (esp in sales or contracts or on the website) about the degree of appreciation or robotaxis or whatever. I think those kinds of claims would get easily dismissed as banking too much on merely aspirational statements by the mfg by a reasonable judge.

I do contrast this with delivering on something like L3/4 for personal use. They charged increasing amounts of cash specifically for it over time, and that was repeatedly promised on relatively short timelines, and has not been delivered for long enough that's it's a significant chunk (or all) of the reasonable ownership time of the car.
 
If it turns out L3/4+ can only happen for HW4+, it'd be pretty simple and not that costly for them to just refund the difference between EAP and FSD to the set of affected customers on HW3 who actually purchased FSD. Arguably they should do that anyways at some point, because they continually sold it on the promise that it was "right around the corner", yet people have owned cars for years without it coming to fruition. Some have bought FSD, driven for years without it, then given up and sold the car even (and not gotten much value from it on the sale).
I'm guessing that is what they are prepared to do. In their SEC filings, they have noted unearned revenue related to yet to be delivered FSD features, so certainly if they don't end up delivering, accounting-wise they are already prepared for refunding of the undelivered portions. If that refund costs much less than a retrofit, obviously it makes zero sense for Tesla to do the retrofits (even if technically possible).

Of course, some people here with the pitchforks want the whole car refunded, not just the non-EAP portion of the option.
 
I think it's quite a stretch to argue for the total cost of the car or it's future appreciation. You still got value out of it as a normal car, and there were never any strong statements (esp in sales or contracts or on the website) about the degree of appreciation or robotaxis or whatever. I think those kinds of claims would get easily dismissed as banking too much on merely aspirational statements by the mfg by a reasonable judge.

I do contrast this with delivering on something like L3/4 for personal use. They charged increasing amounts of cash specifically for it over time, and that was repeatedly promised on relatively short timelines, and has not been delivered for long enough that's it's a significant chunk (or all) of the reasonable ownership time of the car.
is it aspirational statement when they showcase it on official autonomy day and keep repeating it on investor day?

or would it count as a fraudulent statement?

Tesla surely didn't decide that they need to put more cameras in different places yesterday.
 
is it aspirational statement when they showcase it on official autonomy day and keep repeating it on investor day?
If it's a forward looking statement, yes. I think even in his 2019 presentation, he was fairly clear the features will require a driver at the wheel in the current state (for example a reporter at 3:24 pushed him on the question of removing the steering wheel, and got him to finally admit that a driver will need to be at the wheel in the current implementation, using the example of an amphibian). He talks about things like removing and capping the steering wheel, but it's obvious that is fairly far into the future (for one it violates FMVSS).

Again, that may still open him to SEC and FTC violations, but not necessarily a contractual obligation to consumers.
 
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If it's a forward looking statement, yes. I think even in his 2019 presentation, he was fairly clear the features will require a driver at the wheel in the current state (for example a reporter at 3:24 pushed him on the question of removing the steering wheel, and got him to finally admit that a driver will need to be at the wheel in the current implementation, using the example of an amphibian). He talks about things like removing and capping the steering wheel, but it's obvious that is fairly far into the future (for one it violates FMVSS).

Again, that may still open him to SEC and FTC violations, but not necessarily a contractual obligation to consumers.
FMVSS was updated to allow no steering wheel.
I’m not sure what you’re saying about “admitting” that the car needed a steering wheel in 2019. He clearly stated that the software was still in beta and the would require a safety driver until 2020.
 
That is pretty crazy, I wonder what this is going to mean? Are they going to disable all FSD beta? I doubt they can fix it on one swing as there are ALOT of places where it does crazy/suicidal stuff...
Probably another software update. The recall terminology makes it sound scary, but keep in mind they already recalled all FSD Beta once before: when they removed the rolling stop feature.
 
FMVSS was updated to allow no steering wheel.
I’m not sure what you’re saying about “admitting” that the car needed a steering wheel in 2019. He clearly stated that the software was still in beta and the would require a safety driver until 2020.
I use "admitting" because you can see in the exchange Elon was clearly dodging the question about if a driver needed to be in the seat to take over. The reporter had to repeat that part twice before Elon spoke with clarity on that.
 
I think your analysis is good and a reasonable way to break the issues into a manageable discussion. As you know, there is a huge amount of repetitive circling and meandering in the discussions here. It's difficult to make a a logical point in one area (a specific topic within one of your categories) without someone kind of missing it, for blowing past it by bringing up an annoyance related to something else. That's not to say that I think the forum will actually embrace your, or any particular framework for the discussion to get more productive :)

Here I take somewhat of a departure. I think a lot about the hardware suite and what it can do in concert with the developing software, and how humans deal with an arguably inadequate bio-hardware suite.


I do think the NN can learn to do great things with even mediocre camera images, yet I've been an advocate for more and or better camera angles. Sometimes people push back on such suggestions, and talk about how there is a 360° view, or that humans can drive just fine with only two eyes, even one.

Aside from a lot of specific discussion about perspective, geometry, occlusions in the environment, resolution and all that, I take the general position that there are some relatively inexpensive "superhuman" capabilities that can be leveraged to make up for obvious deficiencies in the current state of the self-driving perception and planning software.

For example, the simple fact that the car does have full-time surround vision (even if imperfect) is a superhuman capability that we wouldn't trade away for a swiveling, bobbing, only centrally-sharp pair of cameras behind the windshield. That would be silly, more expensive and less effective. So let's embrace what a bunch of inexpensive cameras can do and maximize that.

If I had been there in 2015 or so, I think that I would have argued for a little more and or better placement, for an exterior microphone, perhaps a set of IR illumination LEDs - all of which were available and inexpensive at the time, it would confer certain "superhuman" capabilities that I think would have greatly simplified some of the problems challenging the project right now. Man-years of development in managing creeping behavior, vulnerable or hostile actor persistence and prediction, parking lot challenges. We can say that the software can eventually overcome, but I think Tesla would be farther ahead with some of that 2015 available hardware, had it been included.

What about lidar, HD radar, Imaging sonar or other exotic sensors? People gloss over the key fact that those were unavailable at a practical cost and performance level when the 3 and Y were being planned. That is beginning to change and we might see HD radar for example.

But my point is that even with the 2015-ish level of hardware, Tesla could have leveraged it somewhat better and we'd already have a smoother and more confident FSD experience.

And this is where we come back to the thread topic: perhaps the cost of an HW4 retrofit, full or partial, would pay dividends as the development team could move ahead knowing that the whole feet could leverage off of this and they could reprioritize on next
As I said before let’s say Tesla has the most advanced AI like Einstein’ brain, but if your eyes can’t see properly, you can’t drive. There are 200 megapixel cameras on phones now, why did it take Tesla 5 years to put change the camera placement and put a 5 megapixel camera in 2023. Mind boggling. And they keep getting rid of sensors so their margin on cars tops every other car. Screw musk
 
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