Should include the ability to transfer (or credit the original purchase price) until the feature is delivered. Once promised FSD (not L2 FSDb) is delivered, FSD license can belong to the limited remaining life of the car. Until then, the product hasn't been delivered.
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There will be NO HW4 upgrade for HW3 owners
- Thread starter macmee
- Start date
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Promise of handsfree/mindfree FSD was only to people who bought before Mar '19. Rest were only promised what is in FSDb.
How can he tell that hardware is all that’s necessary if he doesn’t have the completed software to benchmark on it?
It's good enough to meet their promised requirement according to their lawyers.
HW4 takes it to another level. But how MANYYYYY more years of coding on HW4 to get it there.
Let's not get too hyped up about HW4 and the need to have it. How many HW1, 2, 3 people thought the same over all these years and we're still not there yet.
I would think by the time the software is complete and optimize for HW4 they'll have announced HW5 and you'll likely moved on to your next car.
HW4 takes it to another level. But how MANYYYYY more years of coding on HW4 to get it there.
Let's not get too hyped up about HW4 and the need to have it. How many HW1, 2, 3 people thought the same over all these years and we're still not there yet.
I would think by the time the software is complete and optimize for HW4 they'll have announced HW5 and you'll likely moved on to your next car.
Prior to March of 2019 it was very clearly promised, post that date is very debatable and will be decided in court if they distinguish between the two (and I think any reasonable reading of the primary and secondary sources would find the feature generally the same before and after that date).
If Tesla’s offered to transfer FSD to a new Tesla with HW 4 I would consider it since if I bought a new Tesla with HW 4 and FSD I would be paying $25,000 for FSD (10,000 for the FSD on the old Tesla plus 15,000 for the new one)
I don’t think Tesla will do anything along those lines to benefit the consumer at a possible loss of profits to them. All the stock holder groupies here will agree.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
Right - this is the reason I wish someone brings up a court case so that it can be decided once and for all and people would not whine about it here ad infinitum.
I could see them doing it with pressure from the nhtsa around a certain set of things hw3 does dangerously (that hw4 passes) and tesla gives in and offers free transfer with new car. Of course the catch is you’ll have to tradein the car to them for less money than going elsewhere.
EVNow
Well-Known Member
I didn't even read that comment until you mentioned.Damn, I said @EVNow name, without saying his name, and he appeared. Gangsta
Definitely people like me have a conflict of interest when it comes to Tesla - share holder vs car owner. But it also gives us the understanding of what Tesla might do vs what customers here wish they did.
Sure sounds like a “fool me twice” situation. The big lesson is that if the car doesn’t do it when you bought it, it probably never will meet your expectations, and will be a disappointment every time you ride in it, look at it, or think about it.
I would suggest that to meet Tesla’s low priced car needs, to remove the fsd computer (call it the NSD option). Presumably it and all its sensors (hardware 3 or 4 or whatever), cost quite a bit. Why install them in cars where it isn’t used? Most people won’t want an fsd car anyway, as that pool has already been peed in. Shareholders would gain, as volume goes up and costs diminish. Sure they would need the regular sensors that you see in any Toyota or Honda, but my feeling is that is a whole lot less cost than what the fsd stuff is. In fact, could I trade my hardware 3 system in and let someone else buy it? I have fsd, but it doesn’t work…
It doesn’t cost them anything, they install it for you and make you pay for it, then it looks better in profit numbers at their shareholder meetings lol
Post Mar '19 folks weren't promised that Tesla could actually accomplish "handsfree/mindfree FSD", but they were promised that they were entitled to whatever the product "FSD" became. As long as someone gets "handsfree/mindfree FSD", they are also entitled to it. That's what the product was touted to be, although not guaranteed.
I still think that the most palatable way (to Tesla, and fair to customer) to "transfer" FSD to a new car is to credit the original purchase price, rather than transfer the existing license. Most folks will have paid less that the current price and therefore Tesla would continue to make easy money. What really galls people is the prospect of paying large amounts again for something that was never delivered (and still might not be in the future).
One potential bright spot for HW3. The first is that now we have a single stack and the previous autopilot on freeways software has been removed, This means there should be more room in HW3 for the AI program. The second is that from a Dr Know it All youtube video, there are papers that indicate that you can train a very large AI model with large amounts of data ( such as the one on Dojo) and then use that model to train a much smaller AI model ( such as the one on HW3) with no loss of improvement in the smaller model (HW3). This means that HW3 could vastly improve the way it drives now. The only difference between HW3 and HW4 would be the speed at which the model works and the number of cameras it has. The same output should be reached in sufficient time to make the driving maneuver.
That's not actually fair to customers, and if it becomes clear that Tesla will never fulfill their commitments to HW3 owners, I would instantly opt out of any class action that showed the slightest hint of going down that path, in favor of filing my own separate Lanham Act lawsuit.
Prior to the FSD announcement, I viewed Tesla cars as overpriced toys. I had zero interest in them whatsoever. I would not have even considered a Tesla any more than I'd buy a BMW or a Lexus. Luxury cars are too overpriced and too finicky. To me, they're just cars — nothing special. For context, my previous cars were, reverse chronologically, a Toyota RAV4, a Ford Windstar, a Chevy van, and a Datsun 280Z, which at the time was two decades old, so listing me as the primary driver wouldn't raise our insurance costs too much.
In 2015, I momentarily considered a RAV4 EV until I realized the range wasn't adequate for my regular commute. I looked at other EVs, but realized that the only cars with usable range were made by Tesla, and concluded that they were way too expensive for me to seriously consider them. Disheartened, I assumed it would be many, many years before I bought an EV.
But I've also been following Waymo's progress in self-driving vehicles for as long as they have been around, and have always been annoyed by the fact that they intend to sell their technology only in fleet form, to large companies, rather than individually to normal people. So when Tesla announced in late 2016 that they were bringing self-driving capabilities to cars that individuals could actually buy, I suddenly became a lot more interested in Tesla, despite the high price tag.
In late 2017, one of my former coworkers posted a referral code for unlimited supercharging. At that point, despite my lack of home charging potential, owning a Tesla suddenly became feasible, so I almost immediately pulled the trigger. For years afterwards, I felt embarrassed about how much the car cost me, but I told myself it was all worth it, because eventually the car would be able to drive itself.
I didn't buy FSD for a few thousand dollars. I bought a car with FSD prepaid, with the explicit promise that it would eventually have that capability. Future self-driving capabilities were, from my perspective, an advertised feature of the car as sold.
Moreover, it was clearly stated by Tesla (or maybe by Elon) that the car had all the hardware you would eventually need for full self driving, or if it didn't, they would upgrade it. And paying for FSD didn't add any extra hardware. So the promise of future FSD capabilities was quite clearly part of the base price of the car, which means FSD potentially factored into every consumer's perception of the value of the car, not just the value of the FSD package, which is noise by comparison.
Those FSD capabilities were important enough for me to spend about $80k more for a Tesla with FSD than I would have spent on a new car from some other manufacturer that would have met all of my other needs except for the self-driving functionality, assuming I even bought a new car at all.
So no, a few thousand dollars back for the FSD portion of my car wouldn't be enough to keep me from lawyering up, opting out of the class action, and suing directly if Tesla ends up reneging on what they promised. It's not about the money. It's a matter of principle. I expect Tesla to keep their promises. I expect them to give me what I paid for, which is a car that can drive itself.
johnmodely
Member
No Tesla needs to transfer the full cost especially if we are entrusting them with actually delivering what was supposed to be delivered years ago with the original car purchase.
I picked up FSD at 7k as an early adaptor, I still have no received what I was supposed to receive and Tesla has the balls to charge me another 8k on top if I buy a new car for the privilege of finally getting fsd?
**** no, and its beyond screwed up that Tesla wants to screw over current FSD owners that still want to buy a new car from them...
I’m excited to see where HW4 ends up; not it’s current form which basically HW3.5 performance for time being. If and when HW4 gets expanded to move cameras and what night I’m really excited.
But I’m not going to buy FSD again at current pricing or current performance.
As mentioned by others HW3 is still work in progressing and they’re now pushing out HW4.
I’m happy to upgrade if things were different but right now there’s little point unless you want to burn the money for the latest toy.
But I’m not going to buy FSD again at current pricing or current performance.
As mentioned by others HW3 is still work in progressing and they’re now pushing out HW4.
I’m happy to upgrade if things were different but right now there’s little point unless you want to burn the money for the latest toy.
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