Tire Rotation Strategy

[Rottenapplr]

Every unibody car has jack points. Obviously you probably can jack it up along the side without too much damage but it's more risk than I would take. Many unibody vehicles have a nice pinch weld along the entire side of the vehicle with reinforced jack points. Using that in combination with a 2x4 would probably be fine. I don't think the Model 3 is the same or if it is it's covered by plastic. Anyway as a general policy it's probably best to use the jack points specified by the manufacturer on any car.

Well let me clarify. When I made that statement I was reaching tinting my m3.

There’s sensors by the dash so you have to be careful when you tint it or else you’ll damage those sensors. I was also reading about tinting the roof might cause crack??? But I don’t think that’s true. So I’ll get my roof tinted.

I also turn on the cabin protection mode during hot weather because the electronics in the car. I drove my car at work for the first time and I was like omg it’s 112 why is the overhead protection not working?

 

[bhzmark]

No need to rotate anymore if your car is properly aligned. not worth the bother. See other threads on this topic.

BMW says to not rotate my tires, but the tire manufacturere says different. Who should I believe?

 

[SomeJoe7777]

No need to rotate anymore if your car is properly aligned. not worth the bother. See other threads on this topic.

BMW says to not rotate my tires, but the tire manufacturere says different. Who should I believe?

I won't disagree with your post because that's a bit harsh, but I have the contra view. Rotation makes up for the slight nearly unmeasurable alignment differences that cause unbalanced tire wear, and more importantly (for me, anyway) keep the noise level of the tires down even late into their life.

I rotate my tires myself every 2500-3000 miles, and/or when I switch summer/winter sets. I can objectively say that at a minimum, the noise level of the tires is kept down by this. And I tend to get more miles out of a tire set than I see frequently posted in these forums.

 

[bhzmark]

I won't disagree with your post because that's a bit harsh, but I have the contra view. Rotation makes up for the slight nearly unmeasurable alignment differences that cause unbalanced tire wear, and more importantly (for me, anyway) keep the noise level of the tires down even late into their life.

I rotate my tires myself every 2500-3000 miles, and/or when I switch summer/winter sets. I can objectively say that at a minimum, the noise level of the tires is kept down by this. And I tend to get more miles out of a tire set than I see frequently posted in these forums.

I know of no research that shows any benefit to tire rotation. Jerry the tire guy on here says he has seen some proprietary stuff but couldn't provide any pointers to any research that shows any benefit of tire rotation.

So:

1) there is certain cost, and potential risk of damage to cars by jacking the cars and under or over tightening lug nuts.

2) there is no evidence of any benefit to rotating period. zilch nada nothing.

cost -benefit decision making --> don't rotate.

If you must, make a donation to your local service center and you will be better off if you pay them for a tire rotation but they don't touch your car.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

1) there is certain cost, and potential risk of damage to cars by jacking the cars and under or over tightening lug nuts.

I see the cost / cost-benefit argument cited a lot.

But there is no cost. Tire rotations are free. Here's why:

1. Discount Tire / America's Tire will rotate your tires for free, even if you didn't buy them there.

2. If you don't have a Discount Tire / America's Tire near you and have to go to a shop that would charge for rotation, then consider this:

Over a tire's life, it will have to be balanced at least a few times. As tread wears, any tire will need balancing at approximately 5,000 mile intervals (sometimes they might go a little longer).

Since you MUST remove the tires from the car in order to balance them, you already MUST have the car up on a jack and the wheels removed. Rotation is then trivial and free since you just put the tires/wheels back on the car in a different position.

Given that the rotations are free and effortless, you now have to have a good reason to NOT rotate. While we can debate whether the potential benefits of rotation are large or small, worth it or not, what is absolutely clear is that there is no negative to rotation. If there is no negative, and cost is zero, then the debate over the size of the benefit is moot. If there is any shred of benefit at all, then you must rotate.

 

[bhzmark]

I see the cost / cost-benefit argument cited a lot.

But there is no cost. Tire rotations are free. Here's why:

1. Discount Tire / America's Tire will rotate your tires for free, even if you didn't buy them there.

2. If you don't have a Discount Tire / America's Tire near you and have to go to a shop that would charge for rotation

1. My time is very much not free. going to any service place, even Tesla, is costly when I have to take the time to go there.
2. Anyone jacking up my car, especially a non-Tesla service place, is a risk, a cost
3. anyone, even Tesla, tightening lug nuts, incorrectly, is a risk, a cost

those are costs, real costs, that I don't want to pay, for zero benefit.

There is no evidence (for instance a fleet study) that tire rotation does increase tire life at all.

Even if there were some evidence it would need to show that regular rotation increases tire life:

1. even when the car is properly aligned,
2. even when proper alignment has designed in camber differences between front and rear require that a new wear pattern be achieved after every tire rotation, and
3. that the increased tire life is of a magnitude that justifies both the cost, hassle, and the BMW-cited instability after a fresh tire rotation. (BMW owner's manual states: "In the interests of safety and maintaining optimal handling characteristics, tire rotation is not recommended."

Enjoy rotating your tires, and, if you are so inclined, you can pray to the tire gods -- to the same effect. You will feel better if nothing else.

And hope they don't lift your car by the battery.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

1. My time is very much not free. going to any service place, even Tesla, is costly when I have to take the time to go there.
2. Anyone jacking up my car, especially a non-Tesla service place, is a risk, a cost
3. anyone, even Tesla, tightening lug nuts, incorrectly, is a risk, a cost

Since you will have to have your tires balanced, you will have already taken the time to take the vehicle to service, it will already be on the jack, and will already have to have its lug nuts taken off and put back on. That is a commitment you will already have to take. Are you saying that when that happens, you will instruct the mechanics to intentionally put your tires back in the same position on your vehicle?

There is no evidence (for instance a fleet study) that tire rotation does increase tire life at all.

So riddle me this: Every tire manufacturer I know of (Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear, BF Goodrich, etc.) warrants their tires for the stated mileage life only if you can show that the tires have been rotated according to their schedule. Michelin states the following:

In order to maintain the treadwear warranty on your tires, the tires must be rotated every 6,000 to 8,000 miles (10,000 -12,000 km), or as recommended by the vehicle manufacturer, whichever rotation period is less. Failure to rotate the tires as provided herein voids the treadwear warranty.

So if you choose not to rotate (and keep documentation of such) you are no longer covered by their treadwear warranty. If rotation truly has no longevity benefit, then why do the tire manufacturers require it? Even though BMW specifically advises against rotation, the Michelin warranty above would be void since the minimum rotation schedule as given by Michelin is every 6,000 - 8,000 miles.

Michelin Primacy MXM4 tires are rated for 55,000 miles. How many people here have posted that they got that kind of tread life on the Model 3? None so far that I know of, but several who've posted that they got a lot less. If you want to make a warranty claim at 30,000 miles, you better have rotation documentation. The claim would not be insignificant. 30K instead of 55K would result in a prorated reimbursement of close to $400.

Enjoy rotating your tires, and, if you are so inclined, you can pray to the tire gods -- to the same effect. You will feel better if nothing else.

And hope they don't lift your car by the battery.

I'm trying to have an intelligent debate here, and now you're going to disparage me? Really? I thought you were better than that.

FYI, I rotate my tires myself in my own driveway. No one lifts my cars by the battery. And I don't just "feel better". I have a treadwear warranty (at minimum).

By the way, nice pictures of hoist fails. Which has nothing to do with the rotation debate. You don't hoist the entire car to rotate tires, you jack up one corner at a time. When I have taken my car to Discount tire to do balancing, they never put it on a lift because they know a Tesla shouldn't be raised that way. They use floor jacks on the proper jack points without issue. This isn't rocket science.

 

[Watts_Up]

No need to rotate anymore if your car is properly aligned. not worth the bother. See other threads on this topic.

BMW says to not rotate my tires, but the tire manufacturers says different. Who should I believe?

When you have a car with a 4 wheel drive, a 50-50 weight distribution, and if you don't make hard cornering, accelerations or braking,
I imagine that you might have a quite uniform tire wear.

Note: To have a correct alignment is certainly crucial. After getting my car new I wanted to verify the alignment for future reference.
This was in fact a good idea because the toe angle for each wheel was out of range, something I would have never noticed,
but would have certainly affected the thread wear.

 

[bhzmark]

Since you will have to have your tires balanced,

Balance tires once: when you buy the tires or otherwise have them mounted on new wheels.
no need to take tires off unless you switch summer and winter.

Every tire manufacturer I know of (Michelin, Pirelli, Goodyear, BF Goodrich, etc.)

BMW (and volvo and mini) says don't rotate. I trust the top german engineers relentlessly focused on handling and safety rather than tire mfrs focused on selling tires and avoiding warranty claims. (and service places interested to get you in on a regular basis to do a cheap service, and then upsell you various other service items that they newly identify/cause/lie about.

if you choose not to rotate (and keep documentation of such) you are no longer covered by their treadwear warranty.

I've never used a tire treadwear warranty and pay no attention to such things.

now you're going to disparage me?

I said praying to the tire gods has the same effect as rotating your tires. I'm sorry if I insulted your religion.

They use floor jacks

OK. I concede -- there has never been a problem with a service guy operating a floor jack. those are fail safe.

Meanwhile:

1. lug nut over/under torque risk
2. time cost, even if free
3. better performance from not rotating (says BMW/Mini and Volvo )
4. better safety from not rotating (says BMW/Mini and Volvo )
5. better suspension diagnostic signs (says BMW/Mini and Volvo )

From Volvo Service Manager Bulletin

Tire Rotation
As suspensions and drive trains evolve, so do vehicle manufacturer recommendations for tire rotation.
Volvo's recommendations have always had a technical basis, while leaving some latitude for customer
preference.Presently, for current models, Volvo has no recommended tire rotation. Because this represents an evolutionary policy, customers may need the guidance of a Volvo service advisor to help them understand the performance and handling tradeoffs that come with tire rotation.

Benefit of Tire Rotation
On a front-wheel drive car, the demands placed on the front wheels during acceleration and cornering
can mean a dramatic difference between front and rear tire tread wear. Without periodic tire rotation
front-to-rear, the front tires will typically require replacement sooner. The primary perceived benefit of tire rotation is that front and rear tires will wear down at about the same average rate. In absolute terms, four tires will not last any longer this way. It becomes a customer choice between replacing two tires sooner and replacing all four tires later. However, with all current Volvo models, Volvo believes that numerous technical, performance, and handling benefits outweigh any perceived benefit of tire rotation. Following are some of those benefits.

Benefits of Not Rotating Tires

Braking Stability Performance
During hard braking, braking on a slippery road, or braking in a curve, good rear tire tread may help you avoid oversteer. Oversteer is when a turning vehicle wants to keep turning because of momentum and dynamic forces on the vehicle suspension. Volvo stability systems are all designed toward reducing or helping a driver avoid oversteer. Still, all things being equal, having more rear tire tread can contribute to reduced oversteer. Without rotation, the rear tires will naturally wear more slowly and have more tread.

Tread Set
As tires age, the tread adopts an angular set, based on its angle to the road surface. For vehicle handling reasons, front and rear tread angle is not the same. If tires are rotated, the tread will eventually set at an angle somewhere between what is optimal for a front or rear tire. Although vehicle ride, handling, and road noise may still be acceptable, they may not be optimal. Additionally, an infrequently or irregularly rotated tire may result in tire noise, faster tire wear, and unpleasant changes in steering feel and vehicle handling.

Driving Performance
A tire that can fully adapt to its position will generally provide better steering feel, lower tire noise, and better fuel economy.

Suspension Wear Diagnostics
Every vehicle's suspension needs periodic inspection and maintenance. A tire's tread wear pattern can be an aid in detecting and diagnosing a suspension problem. Each tire, if left in place, tells a story about its place in the suspension. Tire rotation, on the other hand, can mask a developing problem. Early detection is very important, because suspension problem can worsen tire wear, and reduce vehicle performance, handling, stability, and fuel economy.​

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I said praying to the tire gods has the same effect as rotating your tires. I'm sorry if I insulted your religion

Your level of disrespect for someone with a different opinion than you is abhorrent. Typical bully behavior.

Furthermore, you never addressed any of my points with any logical counterpoints, other than "I don't care about the warranty". Well I do. Some other people do too.

Buy all the tires you want. I'll rotate mine.

 

[pitabun]

I’m getting my tires rotated today by Tesla, they’ll be here in a bit.

Cost: $98

Headache: none

 

[Daniel in SD]

I’m in the anti-rotation group
How will you know if your car needs alignment if you rotate the tires often?
I don’t see the point in rotating them until they have measurable wear.
I’m not a zealot though. I rotate my tires on my 4x4 quite often because it has 5 full size wheels and a Torsen center diff.
Anyway, tire rotation is definitely a religious question. Haha.

 

[bhzmark]

you never addressed any of my points with any logical counterpoints,

I gave direct factual evidence against your claim that rotation has a benefit.

The only remaining benefit you can claim -- literally the only benefit -- is that tire OEMs will deny warranty claims if you don't provide proof of rotation. I concede that point, only because such warranties, being pro rated, I find useless and not worth my time.

And you didn't address any of my factual points at all -- or any of the factual points in the Volvo service bulletin. Nor did you make any factual points yourself - except the warranty claim point.

Providing facts and evidence and reasons is not bullying. But the inability to respond with any countervailing facts and evidence and reasons of any persuasiveness, as well your own resorting to name calling is clear evidence of the scientific, factual and logical bankruptcy of your position.

I am a religious person, and sayeth the Gods from Car Talk:

Car Talk

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

jack with integrated jack stands, which are pretty expensive. If you know of another way, getting more jack stands isn't a problem.

There are options for jackstands that have the ability to lower the car onto the jackstand directly from the jack. I'm sure some people here are already aware of this, but I hadn't actually seen one in use.

Not sure if this was already mentioned in this thread, but the Tesla service guy used this example - the car is resting on the jackstand, not on the jack (yes, do admire my panel gap and excellent front door alignment - not everyone can be as lucky as me, though):

Looks like ~$320 for a pair of jackstands. Which is crazy, but we also have Teslas! Certainly worth it for the time saved if I have to swap my wheels and I don't trust my jack to not collapse while I am at it.

Jack stands with Tesla Pads

He said something about making sure to get the low profile pad to be sure you could jack the car. But I only see one option on their website, and that appears to match what he had. Anyway, the point is you'll still need a low profile jack to be sure you have the clearance to lift the car to start with.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

I gave direct factual evidence against your claim that rotation has a benefit.

No, you posted other people's opinions. Neither BMW nor Volvo has published hard data that proves their claims. Michelin (and other tire manufacturers) claim that rotation is necessary for full service life, and they go so far as to require it for their treadwear warranty. Thus, their claim is that rotation increases tire life. Michelin hasn't published their hard data either. So who are we to believe?

Look at your Car Talk conversation. Their argument is strictly a cost/benefit analysis. Tom states plain as day: "So, our feeling has always been that if the tire rotation is free, do it." He also states "the cost of tire rotation roughly equals the amount you'd save by extending your tire life." He concedes that tire life is extended by rotation. He just thinks it isn't worth the money/trouble.

Your assertion that you gave factual evidence that rotation has no benefit is untrue. BMW and Volvo claim that there is no benefit, but Michelin claims there is. Car Talk concedes there is. The truth is unknown here because we have no hard data.

Providing facts and evidence and reasons is not bullying.

You didn't provide any facts or evidence. You provided unsubstantiated claims of 3rd parties who do not have a vested interest in extending your tire life. Facts and evidence would be a study of several sets of tires from different manufacturers being driven without rotation until the tread depth is 3/32" and the mileage measured, then compared with the same sets of tires that were driven with rotation under the same conditions and the mileage measured. Then we can compare. But no one has published such a thing.

Bullying is you (twice) citing my position as a "religion" as if I'm blindly following someone else's advise rather than a logical approach to the evidence. You've also marked two of my posts "Funny" as if to advertise that you're snickering at someone. I refrained from marking your posts with a Disagree, because I don't think that adds to the conversation. So you tell me who is name calling and disparaging the other person and who is not.

I have no respect for someone who resorts to these tactics. Furthermore it weakens any argument you may have.

If you wish to continue the discussion in a serious, civilized manner I'm in. I'm as curious as you are as to what the actual benefit of rotation is, but no one is going to discover that by bantering manufacturer's claims back and forth. A good starting point would be some posts here with hard data from their tires, including tread depths and mileage. I have a decent amount of that data from my previous Model S and my current Model 3, I will dig it up.

 

[SomeJoe7777]

There are options for jackstands that have the ability to lower the car onto the jackstand directly from the jack.

I've had two sets of the JackPoint jackstands for 4 years, I've done every rotation and swap of my tires on my Model S and both Model 3's myself. The JackPoint stands work very well.

Yes, they are expensive for what they are. I didn't mind because I wanted to do my own swaps and rotations myself.

The normal pads will work for the Model S as long as your floor jack is decently low profile and you have air suspension so that you can raise it to Very High before jacking the car. Earlier Model S's may not have air suspension, so those require the low profile pads. The Model 3 requires the low profile pads, the normal pads will not fit underneath once they're on the floor jack.

 

[Watts_Up]

He said something about making sure to get the low profile pad to be sure you could jack the car.
But I only see one option on their website, and that appears to match what he had.
Anyway, the point is you'll still need a low profile jack to be sure you have the clearance to lift the car to start with.

If you already have an hydraulic jack but it is is too high to be placed under the car, (well you can buy a low profile one, or)
you can start lifting your car by few inches, by using a jack under the front door area. Even using a simple scissor jack works.
Then you can put put your (heavy duty) hydraulic jack under the rear door area to completely lift your car from the ground.

Note: As a security, always put a wheel chock to each wheel on the other side of the car.

 

[Daniel in SD]

If you already have an hydraulic jack but it is is too high to be placed under the car, (well you can buy a low profile one, or)
you can start lifting your car by few inches, by using a jack under the front door area. Even using a simple scissor jack works.
Then you can put put your (heavy duty) hydraulic jack under the rear door area to completely lift your car from the ground.

Note: As a security, always put a wheel chock to each wheel on the other side of the car.

I’m hoping you mean the front jack point not the door area. Anyway you can also drive up on to a piece of wood or book or whatever to get clearance for a jack.

 

[bhzmark]

You didn't provide any facts or evidence. You provided unsubstantiated claims of 3rd parties

Credible statements by disinterested (not trying to avoid warranty claims or upsell you a brake job) parties like Volvo, BMW, Mini and CarTalk experts are facts and evidence of expert opinions and conclusions.

And those "opinions" are a lot more credible than the statements from parties who are interested in either avoiding warranty claims or upselling you a brake job.

I doubt the German engineers at BMW make their statements based on a mere whimsical opinion that came to them in a dream.

I choose to follow the German engineers who are interested only in the best performance and safety of the car.

Years ago I searched for any real data on either the potential benefit of slightly longer wear from tires vs. potential poor performance and handling and safety from freshly rotated tires with new wear patterns. I found nothing. But I did find the BMW and Volvo statements and the reasons stated for them and found them credible and rational.

I don't really care about the potential wear benefit even if it exists (which I doubt -- there is an argument that a properly aligned car won't actually wear slower -- Volvo even states that explicitly.

I'm changing tires before they get to the wear bars because I want the best performance and safety and low risk of extremely inconvenient tire problems.

Here is another recommendation against tire (in this case tyre) rotation: Tyre Rotation - Current Recommendations stating "Many tyre manufacturers agree that it is no longer good practice to rotate your tyres in order to extend their legal life . . . at Kwik Fit we do not recommend tyre rotation"

Meanwhile the whole meta conversation is boring. Tough if you don't like my marking your message funny when you call me a bully rather than sticking to the subject. Just stick to whatever facts, evidence and reasons you can muster on the substantive point that others might have a chance at finding interesting. I'll do the same.

 

[OCR1]

This thread is giving me a headache.

So should I rotate my tires or not?