huntjo
Member
I don't think you'll find much support for the a Golf= a P85+ here... Try the fantasy forums
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I don't think you'll find much support for the a Golf= a P85+ here... Try the fantasy forums
I'll agree on that one. I had a Golf GTI. I absolutely loved it. It did do some things better than a Model S. But there isn't really any overall way to say the GTI was better.
And I fully admit that my GTI would go faster than my Model S, and I have been faster in my GTI than I have been in my Model S. I actually liked the seats better in my VW (not the covering material though).
But overall there isn't a way you can justify a 'better' rating of a Golf over the Model S.
Narrow your usage of a vehicle (I need to drive 250 miles every day on speed unlimited roads by myself) and well the GTI might be better for that use case.
And honestly the GTI was a bit harsh driving to do long distances often. Maybe the MK7 is better than the MK5 was.
Tack it on to the registration cost of the vehicle. If the owner wants to lend out his vehicle to other people that drive improperly, he/she can deal with the cost of doing so.
My other car is a Mark VI Golf R. It's clearly not as nice a car to drive in most respects as the Tesla, but it has it's advantages.
When it snows, the Tesla is a bit of a question mark both because of energy use and because of traction, but the Golf just gets up and goes.
The Golf is certainly faster on the top end, and you can cane it all day without worrying about energy use.
The seats are VASTLY better. Tesla's seats are pretty disappointing, offering limited support and almost no bolstering. VW, otoh, fits some of the best OEM sports seats in the world.
The Golf is fun and involving, too, since it is a stick, and it's a lot lighter than the Tesla. If you are going to carve a mountain road (especially one not too close to a Supercharger), the Golf is the car to take.
Oh, and it costs 1/2 to 1/3 as much as the Tesla. That's a lot of gas money and/or capital to buy solar panels to offset your carbon use.
I love the Tesla, but if you told me I could only have one car? I think I'd have to sell the Tesla before I sold the Golf.
Just the way it is. The Tesla is a great car, but it's not one without compromises. The Golf is the beneficiary of 100 years of additional development in ICE tech and infrastructure. As much as we are all hoping for change, this is still the Golf's world, and not the Tesla's.
Yet.
Road fatalities per capita are significantly lower Germany than in the US despite the high speeds on the autobahn. As it happens they are lower than in France as well.
Different markets have different expectations. To cruise along at > 100 mph is normal usage for a luxury sedan in Germany. I regularly hit 100 mph during my daily commute and that's within a major metropolitan area.
It's legitimate to claim that Tesla doesn't cater to that client group. Yet we are treated frequently to claims that the S leaves 500hp+ ICE sedans in the dust. Looking at the performance figures of these kinds of cars I just don't see that as being true: http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-rev...sts/v-8-supercars-the-comparison-65-7-roa0314
I think you'll find the Model S leaves most ICE vehicles in the dust on acceleration from 0-60. Very few cars can compete with it in a 1/8th mile drag race, and it will win a lot of 1/4 mile drag races. However it does not have that muscle above 100 mph. So it depends on the situation. They're a bit apples-and-oranges.
I thought it was a good post but there are plenty of objective posts here, just maybe ones you don't agree with. Ok. So the energy use in the Golf doesn't go up in the cold then? Yes we know refueling is easy in any ICE. We know they can travel faster at this point, even cheaper ICEs with six gears can do this. We know cheaper cars cost less than more expensive cars (by definition). We know the Model S isn't the perfect 120+mph cruising car the Autobahn car. That is simply a small use scenario and doesn't apply in most parts of the world.
You seem to have big problems with EVs and take every opportunity to point out how much better of a experience an ICE is than an EV. You compare small cars like the Golf with a large sedan like the Model S.
Why not compare the BMW mini with a Hummer H2 and tell the Hummer owners how much easier a Mini is to park? That's basically what you are doing here.
The Model S clearly isn't the car for you and maybe for many Germans. We get that and that's valid. The Model S is expensive. We understand that too. It doesn't yet have all the luxury features of similarly priced German sedans. We also understand that. You need to understand with all this many people find it to be an amazing car that more than meets their needs. No one car is right for everyone. Even ultra fast German cars sometimes have issues:
Porsche to replace GT3 engines due to fire risk - Mar. 18, 2014
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Of course I didn't go off on what the Tesla can do that the Golf can't--like carry my entire family + my inlaws, negating the need to drive two cars around. Or let us carpool with the kids' friends. Or carry all of our luggage to the airport. Or carry a room's worth of furniture home from Home Depot. Oh, and then there's the whole no gas ever thing, which is also pretty solid.
There's a reason we bought the Tesla, and the fact that it basically takes the place of a minivan and/or SUV in my life is really, really nice.
I thought your post was a very fair assessment of the general advantages any ICE has over an EV at this point but also nice to hear you say the positive aspects of the Model S. I was more commenting on Realist using your post as proof to further his point that even a cheaper ICE is so much better than a Model S in every way which I know you didn't intend.
Good to see they finally got the stat list updated to included the Model S entries from back then. I sent them at least 3 emails on the subject.
I don't have a problem with EVs. Customers will however compare the Model S to other ICE cars in the same price class. Many people in this forum keep on saying that the Model S is the best car in the world. To my eyes the Model S has a lot of weak points and the poor performance at higher speeds is one of many.
Yet Elon Musk said that he wants to sell 10.000 cars in germany alone. I said 1000 a year would be a huge success. And I have still serious doubts even on this number.
Step away from the Model S specifically for a moment.
How do you define the "best" of something? Do you define it as "the best in every dimension"? If yes, then I would call your definition flawed.
I don't think anyone has seriously said any vehicle is "perfect", but that seems to be the argument you're rejecting. And that, IMO, is a waste of your time and everyone else's.
Now, with that perspective. Please name another car that you would give the "best car in the world" label. Not some theoretical combination of all the best attributes of your favorite vehicles throughout history. One real, shipping to the public vehicle.
For some people, that vehicle is the Model S. I have yet to hear anyone suggest any other car is more deserving of the title. Including you.
Until you give a counterexample, you're not really disagreeing effectively.
"Best car in the world" is a very, very difficult concept to pin down, since it is so dependent on what criteria you are using as a measure of value.
I think, in a lot of ways, the Tesla is among the best cars in the world. It marries performance and efficiency in a way that few or no other cars can, it provides far more space than most other cars in its class, and so on--these arguments are familiar to everyone on this board.
But the Model S has two big disadvantages and one slightly smaller issue. The first is price; the MS measures up well against cars that cost similar amounts of money, but I can see the criticism that says the real "best car in the world" has to take into account providing economical transportation to the masses. By this definition, a car that is cheap to buy, cheap to run, and retains its value over the long run would have a leg up.
The second, obviously, is range and infrastructure. While the MS can accomodate 98-99 percent of my driving, it can't do 100 percent; just today I confirmed that a hotel I'm traveling to in the mountains doesn't have a good charging option, meaning the MS will stay home while I take my other car. The MS and the Supercharger network put Tesla head and shoulders above every other EV out there, but I can see the argument that "the best car in the world" should be able to take you everywhere you want to go, not just most places.
The third is electricity cost. Part of the reason the MS is so compelling in the US is the amount of gas $$ it saves over comparably priced cars. Gas is obviously a lot more expensive in Germany, but so (it appears) is electricity, and my understanding is that the delta between gas and electric in Germany is smaller than it is here. That issue isn't unique to Tesla; it works the other way for diesel cars in the US v. the EU. But I can see the point that what seems like a no-brainer in the US is not quite as obvious in Germany.
EDIT: Oh, I didn't actually name a car. How about the VW Golf GTD?
@JST - I'll repeat my question to you. Which car would you call best car in the world?
This discussion reminds of people that love to complain that XYZ sucks but then, when pressed, quietly admit that XYZ is the best option available in reality. And then we can all move on to more productive topics.
This discussion reminds of people that love to complain that XYZ sucks but then, when pressed, quietly admit that XYZ is the best option available in reality. And then we can all move on to more productive topics.
And people should compare. 'best' is obviously applies to the person saying it and doesn't apply to everyone on earth. For you driving non stop for 8 hours at 150mph is the best. For others it is never going to a gas station in one of the safest sedans on the planet while still out accelerating many sports cars to 60mph is the 'best' car in the world. I'd really focus less on the word 'best' here.
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