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Maybe there's a happy medium somewhere between instead of waiting 30 years for the return I would submit 5 years. John Q public may actually accept this quicker than we think especially with hybrids paving the way. Another big wild card is gas prices. I'm willing to bet we will reach the 5 dollar threshold sooner rather than later and that will be a huge positive upward pressure
from my Samsung galaxy s3
 
This is how I see it...looks like we are at a critical point on the chart, at least according to the technicals... What are your thoughts?

https://www.tradingview.com/x/20MOjisZ/

tsla chart.png
 
I don't understand the above chart. All I see is that after about the first 4 months, it's bounced up and down within about the same limits. The green and red lines mean nothing to me. They do remind me of when I was young and looked for patterns in everything. I don't think the mob mentality of the stock market can be predicted by lines on a chart. But that's just me. The price of a stock is what buyers and sellers agree to trade it for, and that's influenced by many things, such as confidence in the economy and the company, and a general consensus on the company's prospects.

I base my prediction of slow and gradual growth on my confidence in Tesla and my assessment of a generally slow rate of acceptance of EVs by the public. I've been driving electric for 5 years, and talking to people about my EVs, and I see a strong resistance to buying a car that takes hours to "re-fuel" every 75 to 250 miles. I think that reluctance will be overcome very slowly, and that the market will value Tesla according to people's willingness to buy their cars more than according to their ability to build quality cars. The latter is necessary but not alone sufficient to the former.
 
The price of a stock is what buyers and sellers agree to trade it for, and that's influenced by many things, such as confidence in the economy and the company, and a general consensus on the company's prospects.

...and one of those many things is technicals, whether you like it or not, or choose to ignore them. I understand charting isn't for everyone... so I have started a new thread for it: http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/showthread.php/10148-Charting-TSLA-What-Trends-Do-You-See

I base my prediction of slow and gradual growth on my confidence in Tesla and my assessment of a generally slow rate of acceptance of EVs by the public. I've been driving electric for 5 years, and talking to people about my EVs, and I see a strong resistance to buying a car that takes hours to "re-fuel" every 75 to 250 miles. I think that reluctance will be overcome very slowly, and that the market will value Tesla according to people's willingness to buy their cars more than according to their ability to build quality cars. The latter is necessary but not alone sufficient to the former.

I completely agree, but I am talking about the stock (as this is the TSLA investor discussion thread) and its current/mid-term moves. I think we can all agree on our belief and hope for its long term success.
 
I don't use it to trade, I like to think of myself as a long-term investor. It just helps me sleep at night...it allows me to convince myself that I understand whats happening :biggrin:.

But in all seriousness, yes, charting is a key tool for many traders. On the macro level, it allows you to identify breakouts, trading ranges, and the like. When you can draw a straight line on a chart and connect the dots, its "usually" not a coincidence.
 
I don't use it to trade, I like to think of myself as a long-term investor. It just helps me sleep at night...it allows me to convince myself that I understand whats happening :biggrin:.

But in all seriousness, yes, charting is a key tool for many traders. On the macro level, it allows you to identify breakouts, trading ranges, and the like. When you can draw a straight line on a chart and connect the dots, its "usually" not a coincidence.

Nice charts, and for me they help validate my current investment in Tesla.

I'm a latecomer to Tesla. Classic low information scenario where I bought into vague vaporware rumblings (which I now source to Jalopnik and their ilk).

So I've only started dipping my toes into Tesla as in investor in the past month or so. I would have started in May, but I figured it'd be a bad idea to jump in before what was looking to me to be a successful launch. Late money usually gets taken for a ride, and I figured if I was noticing Tesla others would be too.

But in the past month its looked to me like the shorts have reasserted themselves and the struggles with the ramp-up have been driving the news cycle. Which to me screams buying opportunity if you assume that Tesla is going to work through its problems. I missed when it hit the July lows, but I managed to get 80% of my current position in a narrow range around $28 with the rest purchased in the last couple of weeks in the $28-$29 range. I'm very comfortable with those prices in both the short and (especially) long term.

I don't understand how reinvesting its profits into R&D and its productive capital is a bad thing. Thats what growth companies do, and when it works it almost always makes more money for shareholders than dividend paying companies do. Profits are profits, and if you reinvest them to grow you'll make more money next year (assuming you have a good product and make sales). That increases the stock price and makes everyone richer. The smart thing to do is to keep doing that until additional growth becomes a bad thing. Then you turn boring and start paying dividends instead of trying to grow.

Tesla is a tiny automaker, worth ~$3 billion right now. Considering the potential strength of their product and potentially disruptive effect on the market, I see little reason why they can't be a major auto manufacturer in the next 10-15 years. And when you consider the size of the global market I could easily see Tesla being valued in the ~$50-$100 billion range.

A small portion of that potential is already baked into its current stock price, but if I believe that there is a realistic chance of 1,600-3,000% returns in the next 10-15 years I'd be a fool not to be buying right now. Of course the downside is Tesla might get diluted by 50% in the next 6 months to get emergency funding, but I'm willing to take that risk to get a shot at the big money I see at the end of the tunnel.
 
... I am talking about the stock ...
So am I. But I think that in the long term (which is where my interest lies) the price is connected to sales more than to chart figures, and sales depend on the perception of EVs by potential buyers.

I don't understand how reinvesting its profits into R&D and its productive capital is a bad thing. Thats what growth companies do, and when it works it almost always makes more money for shareholders than dividend paying companies do. Profits are profits, and if you reinvest them to grow you'll make more money next year (assuming you have a good product and make sales). That increases the stock price and makes everyone richer. The smart thing to do is to keep doing that until additional growth becomes a bad thing. Then you turn boring and start paying dividends instead of trying to grow.
I agree entirely. But someone was saying that the stock price would double as soon as there were profits, and I pointed out that the Roadster made profits. So what's different about Roadster profits and Model S profits? The former helped finance the Model S. The latter will help finance the Model X. And that will help finance the GenIII. For the next few years at least, the balance sheet is going to show the profits going back into growth, so why would investors react any differently to the presumed coming success of the Model S than they reacted to the success of the Roadster?

Tesla is doing exactly the right thing.

And that will result in slow steady growth in production to match a slow steady growth in public acceptance of EVs. But investors will still be strongly influenced by their own personal attitudes about the "practicality" of EVs. Everyone here believes strongly in the future of EVs, so we believe in the future of Tesla and TSLA. But until the greater investment industry shares that belief, they won't be willing to pay higher prices for it. So again, I tie the future price path of TSLA to general public perception about EVs. And this involves such a strong paradigm shift that I think it will be slow in coming.

People who trade based on chart "fundamentals" are trading for the short term. (Which does not preclude someone from also holding a long-term position.) There's nothing wrong with short-term trading, and if they guess right they can make money off of those who guess wrong. But that short-term trading is a zero-sum game, just like poker. And just like poker or Vegas, virtually nobody ever admits losing. And that makes me skeptical when people claim to use charts to win consistently*. In the long term, what matters is not patterns on a chart, but the success of Tesla in two highly-related "fundamentals": Their ability to build good cars, and their ability to sell those cars, on an ever-growing scale.

*(I knew a guy who consistently won in a regular weekly poker game with friends. He did it by bringing a case of beer to every game and never drinking any of it himself. :wink: And no, it wasn't me. I neither drink nor play poker.)

I think Tesla can do it.

But I would not bet my shirt on it, because there are too many ways they could go bust even if EVs do catch on.
 
I pointed out that the Roadster made profits. .

Daniel:
Read the financial statements carefully. Tesla has lost something like $865 million to date; even if you back out $400 million for Model S/X R&D over the last 3 1/2 years, they lost a "hunk of burning money" on the Roadsters. Good for the Roadster owners, not so good for investors (unless they've cashed out as in Al Damaki.) You can make money trading Tesla shares, but you best be nimble.
 
I don't use it to trade, I like to think of myself as a long-term investor. It just helps me sleep at night...it allows me to convince myself that I understand whats happening :biggrin:.

But in all seriousness, yes, charting is a key tool for many traders. On the macro level, it allows you to identify breakouts, trading ranges, and the like. When you can draw a straight line on a chart and connect the dots, its "usually" not a coincidence.

Charts are interesting; what they're really doing, I believe, is identifying "herd patterns" in trader psychology.

It's been shown that a good chart trader can beat the market *until he explains his techniques and they become famous*. That changes the herd psychology and then the chart traders have to start their research into patterns all over again...

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But at what point do you declare the company "profitable"? Tesla is not going to convert America's roads to EVs (Elon's stated objective) by building the S and the X and paying dividends. They're going to do it by plowing all profits back into growth for the next decade or three. And every new model, every new plant expansion, will be risky. They'd be "profitable" today if they'd stuck to building the Roadster, but that was never their plan. As soon as the Model S production is moving smoothly they'll get working on the X. And when that's in production and the kinks worked out, they'll be working on the GenIII and the pundits will be asking whether a mass-market EV will gain acceptance, and there won't be any profits because all the cash flow, and maybe some new investment along with it, will be going into plant to produce that car.

Well, I bought my Tesla stock in an IRA where I can't actually get the money out for THIRTY YEARS. :) So, y'know, Tesla might be profitable by then.


I'm opposed to all subsidies, rebates, tax credits, deductions, etc. They always have unintended consequences. I'll take all the credits and deductions they'll give me, but I favor a progressive, graduated tax structure with four lines and a table on the tax form:

1. Your income:
2. Look up your income on the table; enter the amount. That's your total tax:
3. How much was withheld, or paid as estimated tax:
4. Subtract (3) from (2). This is what you owe: (If negative, this is your refund.)

The key subtle question is whether you're talking net income or gross income. Taxing gross income horribly penalizes low-margin businesses, which is why it's not done that way for businesses. Personally I favor taxing net income for individuals as well as businesses; add up net wealth last January 1st, add up net wealth this January 1st, subtract, that's your income on which you should be taxed. This avoids penalizing people who have horrible, crippling medical expenses, or expenses for special diets which they have to follow for medical reasons, and also avoids penalizing people who stupidly squander all their money and get nothing for it, and people who have sunk deep into debt where all their income goes to debt collectors; it taxes the people who are *actually getting ahead*, actually benefitting from our society.

Sadly, no candidate has advocated such a plan *ever* in the *entire history of income tax* as far as I can tell, so it's an even harder stretch than your proposal. :-(

(I also support things like pollution taxes -- charge polluters for the costs they cause to everyone else -- but those shouldn't be done through the income tax, those should be done directly.)

Then support alternative energy technologies and other national priorities directly, allowing an accounting of cost vs. benefit, something that's nearly impossible when tax breaks are used to promote priorities.

Sadly, no candidate will ever advocate such a sensible plan. (And no, I have no interest in public office.)
 
Personally I favor taxing net income for individuals as well as businesses; add up net wealth last January 1st, add up net wealth this January 1st, subtract, that's your income on which you should be taxed.
Two problems: It's monstrously difficult to calculate net worth when some of it is in assets that are not traded daily, and market fluctuations can cause net worth to rise or fall a great deal from one day to the next. I agree that taxing gross income for a business with a narrow profit margin won't work. For businesses, net income makes more sense.

As for people going bankrupt due to medical expenses, that would not be an issue if we were a civilized country and had universal health care like every other industrial nation in the world.

Regardless, the myriad deductions, exemptions, tax credits, etc., only serve to wildly distort the economy and give free money mostly to the rich.
 
Just some conversations I've been having in other threads which belong here.

Which interview are you referring to?

CEO: Tsunami of Hurt Coming for Those Shorting Tesla

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An interesting "almost update" after calling Tesla this afternoon (trying to determine if my Model S will show up before/after the solar PV / EV plug installation.) The rep is expecting that all sig reservation holders will be notified within the next 10 days as to what their expected delivery window would be. Time to open the flood gates!

That tracks closely with my estimates based off of the Fox interview.

They are the same thing. By that time Tesla should be producing 500+ cars per week if they are going to hit the 30k/year pace that was quoted in the last conference call. At that rate they would chew through 1800 cars in just over 3 weeks so "Nov/Dec" is accurate for both of you.

For context, in Elon's most recent interview his expectation was that they would build 80 cars this week, after building 40 last week. If they keep doubling according to the ramp schedule they'll be producing 500+ cars per week by around the first week of October. By early to mid October all of the Sigs should be built and regular production will start.

P2009 should come out by mid to late November and P3853 should be complete by early December, with the possibility of being done very late in November if Tesla gets ahead of the curve. Everyone has gotten used to all of the delays we had in July and early August, but we are now deep into the ramp up, with only a couple of weeks of doubling left.

Looking backwards, we can see that if there were 80 cars this week, 40 last week and (probably) 20 the week before, that accounts for 140 cars so far this month. At the end of August Tesla had completed ~100 cars, so that gives us ~240 by the end of this week, which tracks very nicely with what we know about VIN's.

Continued doubling will give us ~160 next week and ~320 in the last week of September which would mean ~720 units produced through Q3, though deliveries to customers will likely only be ~250-400 by that point. Maybe they can even hit 500 deliveries if they have enough West Coast Sigs that they can deliver quick enough. It's hard to tell based on the notifications we've seen so far, but 500 seems at least possible if not likely.

Anyways, this is why so many Sigs are getting October notifications in the last week. The rest of the Sigs should be completed within 3-4 weeks, which means the rest of the notifications (with a 30 day notice) will be happening in the next couple of weeks once you account for 2 weeks for final shipment and prep (i.e. for a car coming off the assembly line on Oct 15 the owner will be notified by the end of September for a late October delivery). My guess is that the bulk of the notifications are apt to come in the next week or so for Sigs and we'll start to see notifications for regular P numbers in the week after that.

Based on VIN 242 scheduled for early October delivery in Pennsylvania its pretty clear they have a bottle neck in processing the cars through to delivery, but the actual production ramp up looks to be going well.

Finally got the email for SSL #147 !

VIN # 242 Way out of order! To bad it wasn't 227 to match the Roadster.
October 4 - 18 delivery

Signature Red Performance
White Performance Interior
Carbon Fiber Trim
Panoramic Roof
21" Silver

And looking at the original calculations showing ~240 by the end of this week, the fact that we have VIN 242 already shows that Elon probably is going to manage making his goal of 80 cars this week. We heard at the beginning of September that the production rate was ~10 cars per week, so I think its fair to conclude that Tesla has been doubling every week this month. I see no reason for that not to continue, so the trend towards a production rate of 500+ cars/week looks like it will be achieved in the first week of October.

As the batches get bigger, the weird out of order effects we've been seeing will largely disappear as we move into general production. So if we get into October and see the factory achieve its planned output level it will become fairly easy to predict the delivery schedule through the rest of the reservation list.

Looks amazing! You have great taste and congrats. I am very pleased with the choice to go with the performance wheels now too. Once of the few pictures I've seen in good light with the Sig Red.

I'll have my paperwork completed tomorrow and it'll get on a truck and be here around the 23rd-25th or so. Probably won't get it in time for National Plug In Day but I'll just take my Roadster then.

Something that wasn't made clear to me (or I missed it which is entirely possible) is that once you get your delivery window e-mail, you're not actually done with paperwork. They'll contact you 2 weeks before delivery with final paperwork and payment is due at that time (check or wire transfer). I called sales and left a message and received a call a few hours later from a regional delivery manager who was great and explained everything.

That clears up how Tesla will be able to report 500 "sales" in Q3. They should be able to record ~600+ this way since they will have ~700+ cars built. Again, off topic and I'm sorry :)

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Anyways, it looks extremely likely to ME that Tesla will report 500+ sales and 700+ produced cars in Q3. See the link to Elon's interview and my analysis of the ramp up and scheduled deliveries for why I think that.
 
They already did it... If you look at exact wording of last but one post on blog, they were stating that they produced 100 cars, 74 of them for delivery... So it is totally expected. And absolutely fair.

delivery = go into customers hands. The remaining 36 are for test drives, testing, instructing delivery specialist and engineers. Get your facts together before speculating on a delivery bottleneck on 36 cars.
I admit that it is a daunting task to ramp up delivery operations to 500 cars a week. OTOH it is no problem to deliver 1500 cars a day. I live near a car factory and I see deliveries via customer centers, train and road transport every day.
 
> My guess is that the bulk of the notifications are apt to come in the next week or so for Sigs and we'll start to see notifications for regular P numbers in the week after that. [CO]

"regular P numbers" - Make that "F&F numbers" - there are at least 486 of these, which could take up to a month to complete.
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delivery = go into customers hands. The remaining 36 are for test drives, testing, instructing delivery specialist and engineers.
You just stating the obvious.

Get your facts together before speculating on a delivery bottleneck on 36 cars.
Have you read my post? And conversation? Please read next time before replying. Not to mention - what those 36 cars have to do with delivery?

And I just agreed and reinforced opinion of vfx, who speculated that Tesla Motors will publish data on number of cars actually produced, not number actually delivered. And I have pointed the fact that they already reported numbers of produced cars, not delivered ones. Please read Tesla blog. And I would expect them to continue to do so for time being.

As for "delivery bottleneck" - I have no opinion about it. It might or might not happened. But not likely because there is well developed competitive market for deliveries, and "Tesla Delivery Specialists" are easy to train and not that many required, even if you take into account 83 per day/20 000 a year car production/sales targets. There are much bigger risks involved that on the TM plate right now, then deliveries...

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And no, at the time blog was written those 74 cars was not delivered, at least not all of them. I hope that is clear to you...
 
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