Twitter and the Chief Twit

[MikeChicago]

The Overton window isn't static. For example, Thatcher was seen as right wing in her day, now you have a Labour party committing to policies that would make her blush.

You are absolutely right. Here in the States, Biden would have passed for a moderate Republican a couple of decades ago. Today he's seen as liberal by his political opponents. Some Republican ideas from a decade ago would be seen as liberal ones today as well.

 

[Jason71]

You are absolutely right. Here in the States, Biden would have passed for a moderate Republican a couple of decades ago. Today he's seen as liberal by his political opponents. Some Republican ideas from a decade ago would be seen as liberal ones today as well.

The actual Liberals don't think he is a liberal though. But they are just written off as "Extreme left"

 

[EVer Hopeful]

The Overton window isn't static. For example, Thatcher was seen as right wing in her day, now you have a Labour party committing to policies that would make her blush.

We had one of these when I were a nipper

 

[EVer Hopeful]

You are absolutely right. Here in the States, Biden would have passed for a moderate Republican a couple of decades ago. Today he's seen as liberal by his political opponents. Some Republican ideas from a decade ago would be seen as liberal ones today as well.

It's an interesting point, because to answer a previous question "What does 'radical' really mean?" I guess you could say large changes (in either direction) from what's considered "normal".

The problem comes when there are small changes that gradually move the centre to one side so that a shift back to what was once considered normal is seen instead as something radical

 

[EVer Hopeful]

I think this is debatable. More taxes, more government interference, more regulation... hardly right-wing values. I'm not commenting on the increasing authoritarian vibes because those are not exclusive to the right nor the left side of the spectrum and both Labour and Conservatives seem equally keen.
Quite frankly, I don't really see a huge difference between the two main parties in the UK.
But, as I alluded to earlier on, I'm not allowed to vote here so I'm keeping my head down and going along for the ride. It's certainly being bumpy at the moment!

I'd respectfully disagree that right wing values are less government, fewer taxes, less regulation. Certainly here in Texas we see the government and regulation being used as political tools to achieve right wing political ends

So right wing values are really: less of the government we don't like, fewer of the regulations that restrict us personally and we also don't want to pay any taxes

It's a little like people saying they "support free speech" when what they really mean is they want to be able to bore us to tears with their opinions (see what I did there ) but don't really want to hear any opposing views

How come you're not allowed to vote in the UK?

 

[EVer Hopeful]

Be fair now ... maybe he means Communism

 

[ACarneiro]

I'd respectfully disagree that right wing values are less government, fewer taxes, less regulation. Certainly here in Texas we see the government and regulation being used as political tools to achieve right wing political ends

So right wing values are really: less of the government we don't like, fewer of the regulations that restrict us personally and we also don't want to pay any taxes

It's a little like people saying they "support free speech" when what they really mean is they want to be able to bore us to tears with their opinions (see what I did there ) but don't really want to hear any opposing views

How come you're not allowed to vote in the UK?

I think there are right wing values as I alluded to and then there are corrupt right wing values which are more what you described.
The UK is one big centre, leaning to the left, in my opinion.

I am not a UK citizen, therefore not allowed to vote. Seems reasonable to me

 

[Zilla91]

leaning to the left, in my opinion.

Curious conclusion when you consider how the country has voted for the last 14 years

 

[ACarneiro]

Curious conclusion when you consider how the country has voted for the last 14 years

I don’t really see the Tories particularly to the right end of the spectrum. Centre-right at most, I suppose.
But that’s just the way I see it, who knows what the truth is?

 

[EVer Hopeful]

I am not a UK citizen, therefore not allowed to vote. Seems reasonable to me

On the face of it yes, hard to disagree with that, but then again decisions taken by whoever gets voted in affect everyone who lives there. Maybe participating in the society (by working and paying taxes) rather than simply being born into it would be a better entrance ticket. Robert Heinlein suggested a dual level of citizenship with the higher level having the franchise and to get into it you had to have done something like be in the military, or done some other public service. Not necessarily a viable model, but one perhaps worthy of contemplating

 

[ACarneiro]

On the face of it yes, hard to disagree with that, but then again decisions taken by whoever gets voted in affect everyone who lives there. Maybe participating in the society (by working and paying taxes) rather than simply being born into it would be a better entrance ticket. Robert Heinlein suggested a dual level of citizenship with the higher level having the franchise and to get into it you had to have done something like be in the military, or done some other public service. Not necessarily a viable model, but one perhaps worthy of contemplating

Well, I do pay a lot of taxes and I have served in the military (oddly enough). I suppose the way to look at is it that if I really wanted to vote then there is a route available for me: apply for citizenship.

The model you suggested is very interesting (and also quite right-wing, if you ask me), but does carry the risk of creating a dual society of some who are better than others (you can argue that already happens but I would say not in an institutionalised way).
I think, all things considered, it's fairly OK as it is already

 

[Masklin]

On the face of it yes, hard to disagree with that, but then again decisions taken by whoever gets voted in affect everyone who lives there. Maybe participating in the society (by working and paying taxes) rather than simply being born into it would be a better entrance ticket. Robert Heinlein suggested a dual level of citizenship with the higher level having the franchise and to get into it you had to have done something like be in the military, or done some other public service. Not necessarily a viable model, but one perhaps worthy of contemplating

They pretty much made a film about it… Starship Troopers.

 

[ACarneiro]

They pretty much made a film about it… Starship Troopers.

"Service guarantees citizenship"

 

[EVer Hopeful]

They pretty much made a film about it… Starship Troopers.

From the book written by . . .

 

[Tony Hoyle]

Curious conclusion when you consider how the country has voted for the last 14 years

It risks getting very OT for a car forum, but their 2019 landslide was only 43% of the vote. the right wing has traditionally coalesced around a single party (which is why they considered UKIP such a threat) and the opposition split between Labour, SNP, LD, Greens, etc.

FPTP means the politics leans right but the population as a whole is much more centrist.

 

[ACarneiro]

It risks getting very OT for a car forum

Yes, the thought had crossed my mind.
But I guess if there is one thread on this forum to have this sort of conversation, then this is probably the best one

 

[Masklin]

From the book written by . . .

Why do you think I mentioned the film…

 

[EVer Hopeful]

Well, I do pay a lot of taxes and I have served in the military (oddly enough). I suppose the way to look at is it that if I really wanted to vote then there is a route available for me: apply for citizenship.

We have a very difficult citizen application process though - much more difficult than the US one that I went through. You have to be able to make a halfway decent cup of tea, then drink it with your little finger sticking out. Then there's the grammar part, where you have to use the words "Whom" and "Whilst" in a sentence (correctly)

Then there's the cultural aspect where you have to recite bits of old Morecambe and Wise sketches like "I don't get it" "Yes you do ... on page fifteen" or "Listen sonny, these are all the right notes, they're just not in the right order". Learning which way up the flag goes is apparently still optional, though it will garner you more points ... as will using the word "Garner" in a sentence (correctly)

Stay away from any mention of brexit (because you never know who your dealing with. There are no outward indicators of a person's position ... other than perhaps a gentle purpling of the skin around the edges of the face) - I'll leave you to figure out what's acceptable /not acceptable to say if you get interviewed by someone like that

Lastly, if you're originally from the US, you'd better get prepared for some serious insults during the interview. You'll know when they're being delivered though because the interviewer will be impeccably polite. Recognising (and yes that has an S) this is also part of the test. They'll expect a similar response

If you want to study up for the test, then watch every episode of "Very British Problems" - actually if you haven't done that already,., you really should



One more thing: Say "Sorry" a lot ... even when it's them who did something wrong

 

[EVer Hopeful]

Why do you think I mentioned the film…

Sorry, I was just showing off that I'd read it

 

[ACarneiro]

We have a very difficult citizen application process though - much more difficult than the US one that I went through. You have to be able to make a halfway decent cup of tea, then drink it with your little finger sticking out. Then there's the grammar part, where you have to use the words "Whom" and "Whilst" in a sentence (correctly)

Then there's the cultural aspect where you have to recite bits of old Morecambe and Wise sketches like "I don't get it" "Yes you do ... on page fifteen" or "Listen sonny, these are all the right notes, they're just not in the right order". Learning which way up the flag goes is apparently still optional, though it will garner you more points ... as will using the word "Garner" in a sentence (correctly)

Stay away from any mention of brexit (because you never know who your dealing with. There are no outward indicators of a person's position ... other than perhaps a gentle purpling of the skin around the edges of the face) - I'll leave you to figure out what's acceptable /not acceptable to say if you get interviewed by someone like that

Lastly, if you're originally from the US, you'd better get prepared for some serious insults during the interview. You'll know when they're being delivered though because the interviewer will be impeccably polite. Recognising (and yes that has an S) this is also part of the test. They'll expect a similar response

If you want to study up for the test, then watch every episode of "Very British Problems" - actually if you haven't done that already,., you really should



One more thing: Say "Sorry" a lot ... even when it's them who did something wrong

I would say that 20+ years have thoroughly anglicised me. I get most of those references and I apologise (with an s!) for being in the wrong place when someone steps on my foot. I'd say that's half way there

The citizenship test was actually quite interesting. I learned quite few things about British history (why would I know them?) so I'd say that was a positive (if slightly surreal) experience. The certificate is still in my study, unused. You never know when my "settled status" might be revoked

Also, proper grammar is not to be sniffed at! One of my pet peeves currently coming from that side of the pond is "different than". You use "than" as a comparator (more than or less than, higher than or lower than, etc.). It's "different from" or "different to", you heathens! (Says the non native speaker )