Two things really holding me back

[DeaconBlues]

I have been watching and waiting. My intent is to buy a Model Y, but two things have really put the brakes on. First is the price has been climbing every couple days. It's gone up about, what? Two thousand, maybe three thousand in the last month? And second, and perhaps most importantly, the removal of the radar. For whatever reason, be it because they think their cameras are better, or because they can't get electronic components, the loss of the radar functionality is major to me. There are several conditions where radar is superior to cameras, including bounce under cars or in foggy conditions.

Buying a Model Y right now is paying more for a car that does less. It would be one thing if Tesla said this is temporary and when parts are in stock your car will be updated with radar at no charge. But they aren't saying that. They're saying that the cameras aren't as good, so they have to disable and downgrade some features, but some day they will be able to enable and upgrade those features. And by the way we raised the price about 3k!

Is anyone else really put off by this?

 

[angus[Y]oung]

@DeaconBlues you are misreading removal of the radar hardware. Elon has been saying for quite a while now that vision-only (without radar or lidar) is the best way forward. The parts shortage may have hastened the hardware removal but it is something they have been working toward for some time now--it was not just a sudden reaction. And as far as the car doing less, the stance from Elon and company is that the car can and will work better without using radar. There has been lots of discussion around this already in the community and there are dozens and dozens of videos of people testing auto pilot and FSD in vision-only MY/M3 in various road and weather conditions on YouTube and the general feedback is that it works really well. And there was a recent software update that restores the features that were temporarily unavailable in vision-only units, while raising the speed limit in auto pilot from 75 to 80--I'm sure they will get the rest of the way soon.

Regarding pricing: the general thought is that it may continue to rise for the foreseeable future, because Tesla continue to sell them faster than they can produce them. If you were to order right away, you would lock in the current pricing to protect you against any bumps while you wait for your vehicle (which, depending on your chosen configuration, the location you live in, and well luck, could be September-October before you see it anyway). If you decide once your vehicle is ready that you still can't live with the radarless approach, you can always cancel the order or not accept the vehicle when the time comes (or any time in between). But in the meantime while you wait you will be price protected, and continue to research by watching and reading impressions of the vision-only vehicles on the road.

 

[Watts_Up]

About price, I would not be surprised if other car manufacturer might have the same issue.
For price, Tesla builds only EV, so price must be just enough to make profit and to be competitive
to sell more cars, while still adding superchargers and services centers.

Other manufactures are selling primarily ICE cars and they don't necessarely make profit selling EV,
an example the VW ID.4 is cheapre to buy in US even after shipping that in Germany.

About the radar issue, there are tons of articles about this subject:

Explainer: Tesla drops radar; is Autopilot system safe?​

​

Tesla drivers complained of "phantom braking" when their cars stopped abruptly on highways under an overpass or a bridge.​

Musk said the new camera-only system will likely be safer than radar because of less "noise" or confusing signals.​

 

[jcanoe]

I can understand waiting for the Austin plant to come online or the new 4680 battery cells but the radar-based adaptive cruise control (TACC) ship has sailed and it is not coming back, supposedly not even for Tesla Model Y vehicles that currently have, use the radar unit. As for the price of the vehicle, it could drop in the future due to competition from other manufacturers. Even if the price of the assembled battery continues to drop the cost of high strength steel, aluminum alloys, chips and other components appear to be on an upward swing.

 

[DayTrippin]

I think they MY is about where it started for its price over a year ago. Here is from a 2020 C&D road test. Looks to be the same as back then when you factor in freight. The MY is better in some ways than then. Bigger battery pack, double pane front glass, some other refinements and factoring in inflation, still cheaper than last year. As srlwaren said, ofer now and lock in the price increase.

2020 Tesla Model Y Long Range

VEHICLE TYPE
front- and mid-motor, all-wheel-drive, 5-passenger, 4-door wagon

PRICE AS TESTED
$57,190 (base price: $54,190)

 

[charrigan]

Price increases are a reason to buy the car now. They're going to continue, in all likelihood. Waiting will only cost you more.

As to radar, I wouldn't sweat it. Just keep in mind how little you (and I) truly understand about the systems they use relative to the thousands of people at Tesla who work on this full time. They wouldn't have pulled it if it wasn't not only as good, but most likely better, then the previous system.

 

[Gordon87]

This article also discusses why radar was removed:

Tesla AI chief explains why self-driving cars don’t need lidar

Tesla's chief AI scientist Andrej Karpathy says pure vision-based approach to autonomous driving will make fully autonomous vehicles possible.

venturebeat.com

 

[DeaconBlues]

This article also discusses why radar was removed:

Tesla AI chief explains why self-driving cars don’t need lidar

Tesla's chief AI scientist Andrej Karpathy says pure vision-based approach to autonomous driving will make fully autonomous vehicles possible.

venturebeat.com

That was a great article, thanks for posting that, it’s given me something to think about. I guess I’ll watch some of those YouTube videos of people driving without the radar. Wish I would have been ready to buy a couple months ago when the Y’s were 2k less.

 

[astrocling]

I think that the price increases are an indicator that you should buy now before prices go up again if you're really thinking about moving on this. If you're thinking of a more long term purchase then waiting it out could be smart. Pricing will always be a challenge when purchasing a new car. One benefit to Tesla in my eyes is that you know the price. There aren't dealers marking them up, adding fees, and adjusting for demand. This is the price for the car, everyone pays that price if they order right now.

As for feature removal, I'd agree with the idea that you're mis-representing what is going on here. If the radar thing is a deal breaker for you Tesla might not be the right manufacturer for you. They've been pretty clear they intend to go to a vision only system. While I believe that this move was hasty because of a global parts shortage, there's no doubt in my mind that they don't believe the radar is necessary. I'm driving a non-radar MY and have no regrets I don't even notice that the radar is missing (as I shouldn't). Also there are protections in the Vehicle Purchase Agreement against features and hardware upgrades or obsoleting of hardware during the warranty period.

I'm personally of the mindset that if I didn't trust Tesla to resolve any issues like other auto manufacturers do I probably shouldn't be purchasing a car from them. Likely because of the high amounts of press on the technology Tesla seems to get held under a microscope compared to other manufacturers. If Ford announced that they were going to sell F150's without radar and instead use a camera system that has a huge neural network behind it and years of development I don't think anyone would shake a fist at all.

Jut my .02. Not all Kool Aid and Rainbows for me about Tesla, but this company is innovative, rapidly growing, and I think is disruptive to an antiquated industry that needs to be disrupted, and those are things that I appreciate from Tesla.

 

[thesmokingman]

Is anyone else really put off by this?

I was sort of, but it's the wife's M3P and she was all in. I did some research just to be sure and it's really down to one's pov. Those who are working on radar all say radar is best. Those who do camera based systems say cameras are best. admittedly that's a party of two now. And looking at the safety awards, Subaru's Eyesight gets IIHS's highest rating for front/rear crash prevention and it as you may or may not know is camera based. The other thing is that Tesla are smarter than most other companies. They brought in Jim Keller to dev the neural network and that guy is the boss. I'm sure they know what they're doing by going this direction.

 

[angus[Y]oung]

I was sort of, but it's the wife's M3P and she was all in. I did some research just to be sure and it's really down to one's pov. Those who are working on radar all say radar is best. Those who do camera based systems say cameras are best. admittedly that's a party of two now. And looking at the safety awards, Subaru's Eyesight gets IIHS's highest rating for front/rear crash prevention and it as you may or may not know is camera based. The other thing is that Tesla are smarter than most other companies. They brought in Jim Keller to dev the neural network and that guy is the boss. I'm sure they know what they're doing by going this direction.

@thesmokingman I didn't know about Subaru's system, thanks for the info.

 

[Terminator857]

Just wait a year, prices will be much lower. Price increase is due to Covid return to work and shortages. Once Austin plant is in full gear there will be a Model Y for $10K less, with perhaps less range.

 

[DayTrippin]

While I would hope they are some price decreases for EV adoption, it would maybe hurt my resale value as well. I don't think though we might see as much decrease as I originally thought. The raw material costs are through the rough and we are entering a period of some of the worst inflation I've seen in my lifetime.

I lived through the shitty Jimmy Carter's years too. That was probably the worst period of any inflation to impact me on a personal level. I was young and ignorant and didn't understand how terrible inflation could be. God help us all if it gets that bad again.

 

[LionelHutz]

I really can't blame you. This seems to be a good time to "wait and see" on EVs generally. You may be able to get a significant federal tax credit if you wait until next year, and there will be even more EV options on the market. And the removal of radar and passenger lumbar rubs me the wrong way--and it remains to be seen how well the radarless cars will perform.

 

[Noflash]

There are not 60 votes for new ev tax credits. Many cars are selling for over MSRP. Tesla cannot build cars fast enough. They have no reason to lower prices. Order now and you have 2 months to gauge any changes. If a miracle appears on the horizon, you can delay your order.

 

[astrocling]

I completely agree with this. Prices aren't going to go down, particularly anytime soon, and I really don't think the EV tax credit will happen. There seems to be larger support for the charging infrastructure plans they're promoting and the consumer tax credit seems to have completely fallen off the radar. The idea of it coming back seems really slim now.

 

[electric miles]

That was a great article, thanks for posting that, it’s given me something to think about. I guess I’ll watch some of those YouTube videos of people driving without the radar. Wish I would have been ready to buy a couple months ago when the Y’s were 2k less.

Perhaps you were a victim of laughing chance?

All joking aside, it's just not a great time to buy a car, period. Other automakers have had to temporarily stop production altogether, restricting supply (which leads to price increases). But if you gotta get a car now regardless (like I did a couple of months ago), the MY is still a good choice IMO. The radarless AP doesn't seem to function any worse than the radar-equipped one, from my own experience.

 

[thesmokingman]

Put your order in asap, even if you have no intention of buying for months to a year. Lock that price and config in now. I had our placed our Y order in Jan and locked in that price. We didn't take delivery till June and in that time the cost had gone up over $3k which is kind of CRAZY. I had pushed it back because the markets had gone to hell. And in June, it was an ok time to make the move for us.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Price increases are a reason to buy the car now. They're going to continue, in all likelihood. Waiting will only cost you more.

As to radar, I wouldn't sweat it. Just keep in mind how little you (and I) truly understand about the systems they use relative to the thousands of people at Tesla who work on this full time. They wouldn't have pulled it if it wasn't not only as good, but most likely better, then the previous system.

No, they aren't a reason to buy now. If the price increases are permanent it would imply that Tesla is going to be stomped by cheaper competition, especially from China.

Tesla has played the FOMO game with FSD*(* At some unknown point in the future, if at all) as well.

Best decision is to wait a year or two until the global supply chain problems sort themselves out. It also gives you more time to see what the competition brings out.

Radar schmadar. If you can't see, slow down.

 

[charrigan]

Tesla is going to get stomped by cheaper competition from China?