If you know its only a temporary thing maybe, but long term with no home charging I just dont get how people stick to any EVs. One of the things i love about EVs is waking up with no worries about fuel, even in the Leaf, 95% of my day trips are sub 50 mils. But if I had to go and sit at a SC for 1ht to top up every few days, I just wouldn't bother with an EV. A second hand M5 is half the price of 75D, thats a lot of fuel money.
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[UK] 75D or 100D?
- Thread starter Dilvid
- Start date
If you know its only a temporary thing maybe, but long term with no home charging I just dont get how people stick to any EVs. One of the things i love about EVs is waking up with no worries about fuel, even in the Leaf, 95% of my day trips are sub 50 mils. But if I had to go and sit at a SC for 1ht to top up every few days, I just wouldn't bother with an EV. A second hand M5 is half the price of 75D, thats a lot of fuel money.
So an extra 13 minutes over a 4hr trip, thats a 5% increase in time on a occasional trip.....for £17k.
As its already been said many times here if you have the cash go for it no one is saying anything otherwise. But for the UK even my old 60D X had enough range. Dont forget the vast majority of EV owners in the UK get by with sub 30kWh Leaf/Zoes.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
I made a detailed analysis up-thread, saying "its only 15 minutes / 5% a trip" misses the point, as does saying that it is 17K as clearly not 100% of that is lost on resale.
If you don't need it then you don't need it. If you can't afford it then, bad luck, you can't afford it, but arguing that its expensive for what it is is, or a more-money-than-sense option, is the wrong tack. At purchase time I thought it was expensive and almost didn't do it, but with what I know now that would have been the wrong decision. The time spend extra-charging, not having enough energy to divert / run an errand, all those things add up. My wife would also not make a significant number of (doable) trips because of range anxiety. She's an easy convert for Green Planet, but shes not for significant loss of convenience.
Yesterday I went to Kent. I got home at 6%. In a 75 I would have had to charge. Sure, "not long", but either I would have had two options: the obvious would be to charge at Bluewater. I've never done that so I don't know the topography at all, but my suspicion is that on a Saturday it would be crowded and I would find queuing traffic getting in/out of Bluewater and/or shoppers who have plugged in for the duration of their shopping with the risk of all stalls occupied.
So I would have detoured via M11 / Stanstead, instead of the shorter route home up the A12, and that's another 15 miles driving, plus some charging time. Having to do that, and getting home later, would be fine once in a while, but I don't think once-in-a-while starts at 2+ times a month.
Like I said, for anyone who will only go out-of-range once in a Blue Moon they can decide to live without it. But my advice would be not to divide £17K by 5 minutes and decide its a big number.
There is no doubt that the upgrade cost for the 100D is pretty huge, so it all comes down to your actual need for the extra range and how significant that money is to you. For me it was a no-brainer to take the 75D as I will hardly ever use the extended range and the money saved is quite significant! It's a heavy enough car as it is without adding extra battery weight that I don't need.
I think the money involved in making the 75 vs 100 decision warrants some serious analysis of your intended usage. The figures are all out there to make an informed decision.
I think the money involved in making the 75 vs 100 decision warrants some serious analysis of your intended usage. The figures are all out there to make an informed decision.
OT, but regarding Bluewater: I've not suffered from crowding (though obviously it could occur), but it is a huge detour if going round the M25 - easily 15min added on top of the charging time. Coming from Kent up the A2/M2 (as I was last week) not such a big diversion, but ignore the signs on the approach road saying "use both lanes for Bluewater": you need to take the first left, which you can't if in the right hand lane, and so end up doing a complete lap round the place and another 5 mins wasted.
From the M25 (eg. Gatwick/Brighton) and needing only a modest charge, I prefer Ecotricity CHAdeMO at Clacket Lane to the hassle of getting in/out of Bluewater.
After a year of owning a X90D we finally gave away our thrashed ICE which had barely been used over the year. So now we are only electric.
What gives me the confidence is that the reasonably infrequent but regular journeys need to work without being an utter pig. For me these divide into: weekend trips to see family members, and weekend trips to go cycling in places that are not as flat as cambridge!
Family is fine; we can get there with no charging, and get home using a SC; no problem. If I had to charge on the way out, that would feel like a bit of a pain.
Cycling is OK if we are going to peaks or Yorkshire...one charge each direction is also time for a meal so nothing feels wasted. Car has reasonable charge at destination so you are not spending weekend worrying about getting back to infrastructure (this ended up being quite important!)
Wales is a challenge. the only way it works is to charge at destination, which is not crazy hard
But basically it works for us and with our own set of edge cases with minimal PITA.
A carefully driven 75 ought to do same range as an averagely driven 90. If worried, AP2 with distance = 1 behind truck on motorways can cut consumption by 1/3rd (i.e. on those rare journeys when it matters, you can drive in a way that woudl increase the 75D range beyond that of a 100D). Not a recommendation by the way I know tailgating can annoy.
What gives me the confidence is that the reasonably infrequent but regular journeys need to work without being an utter pig. For me these divide into: weekend trips to see family members, and weekend trips to go cycling in places that are not as flat as cambridge!
Family is fine; we can get there with no charging, and get home using a SC; no problem. If I had to charge on the way out, that would feel like a bit of a pain.
Cycling is OK if we are going to peaks or Yorkshire...one charge each direction is also time for a meal so nothing feels wasted. Car has reasonable charge at destination so you are not spending weekend worrying about getting back to infrastructure (this ended up being quite important!)
Wales is a challenge. the only way it works is to charge at destination, which is not crazy hard
But basically it works for us and with our own set of edge cases with minimal PITA.
A carefully driven 75 ought to do same range as an averagely driven 90. If worried, AP2 with distance = 1 behind truck on motorways can cut consumption by 1/3rd (i.e. on those rare journeys when it matters, you can drive in a way that woudl increase the 75D range beyond that of a 100D). Not a recommendation by the way I know tailgating can annoy.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
This has always been a slight worry for me too as I have some APPs (e.g. TeslaFi) hooked up, and suffer some parasitic loss as a result ... and disabling all that lot just for a weekend (and, more importantly, being confident that they ARE all disabled
) is a further hassle - so destination charging solves all that, as well as leaving with a full-ish tank means I am likely to have more choice for charging on return-leg.I find that if I am able to be well-charged for the return-leg there is a fair chance, in UK ..., that there is roadworks / traffic, so I may very well manage to get further than expected, and thus able to exercise a second-choice where at the outset that would be touch-and-go for range but otherwise a better option - e.g. no detour.
My view is that IF Supercharging is readily available then just drive-and-charge. I've seen various reports that the charge-time vs. additional-drive-time (at slower speed) breaks even at anything from 75MPH to 100 MPH, so certainly at normal "motorway speeds" I think I'm better off driving normally. (Hadn't thought about it before, but given that bigger battery charges faster the best-cruise-speed may favour larger battery, offset by extra consumption ... but its beyond my maths!)
I don't know how AP2 performs, but the variation between Distance=MIN & MAX on my AP1 seems pretty haphazard, Distance=1 is closer than i would choose to follow a car, but not so close that I would not drive like that manually ... and Distance=MAX is perhaps barely 3 seconds (at 70 MPH), but all of them vary in time/distance, whereas I would have expected the settings to be repeatably spot-on for interval-time (or spot-on-for-time-at-given-speed). Perhaps AP2 is more consistent?
But I'm not sure, for anyone who is uncomfortable with it, that it is necessary to drive Distance=1 for draughting? From what i have read even a "reasonable gap" is still a significant fuel saving. No empirical data though, and I've only desperately sought out a Truck on one journey ... and there weren't any, so I limped along at 45 MPH for 20 minutes until I got to Supercharger.
WannabeOwner
Well-Known Member
disabling all that lot just for a weekend (and, more importantly, being confident that they ARE all disabled
If you actually needed to, my first thought would be that turning off app access via the setting in the car would do it (though I haven't tried).
Just possibly, switching off 'always connected' would be enough - I think most of these apps avoid waking a sleeping car, just a question of whether they ever let it sleep in the first place.
The charging however is only 3kW, so barely worth plugging in for the amount of charge gained. Free parking on the other hand is indeed a bonus; I think that still applies but not sure.
I still say get 100D, even if 75D seems like it's enough. If you can afford it then why not. Yes it is a bit of money but it's also a bit of leeway in case of emergency or some unforeseen scenario. Also all depends on driving style. I have never been able to get the mileage the car says I should. Its fun accelerating off the line
If you plan to keep car for a while there is also issue of battery degration. I have recently read an article about Tesla battery degration. It seems on average there is an eventual loss. All lithium ion batteries start to loose how much charge they can hold.
I can live with a loss on a 100D, I think on a 75D it might become an issue. Especially in colder climates.
If you plan to keep car for a while there is also issue of battery degration. I have recently read an article about Tesla battery degration. It seems on average there is an eventual loss. All lithium ion batteries start to loose how much charge they can hold.
I can live with a loss on a 100D, I think on a 75D it might become an issue. Especially in colder climates.
Shock-On-T
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Another thing to consider is that Tesla is always adding new superchargers, so the advantage of the bigger battery will diminish over time.
Trips which were hard just a year or two ago are now almost too easy.
For example, Ipswich is getting a supercharger this year, which might make @WannabeOwner 's trip from Suffolk to Kent a bit easier.
Having said all that, the 100D is clearly better if you can afford it. But the different is only a matter of convenience.
Trips which were hard just a year or two ago are now almost too easy.
For example, Ipswich is getting a supercharger this year, which might make @WannabeOwner 's trip from Suffolk to Kent a bit easier.
Having said all that, the 100D is clearly better if you can afford it. But the different is only a matter of convenience.
Shock-On-T
⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️
There was a mythbusters episode on this.This has always been a slight worry for me too as I have some APPs (e.g. TeslaFi) hooked up, and suffer some parasitic loss as a result ... and disabling all that lot just for a weekend (and, more importantly, being confident that they ARE all disabled
I find that if I am able to be well-charged for the return-leg there is a fair chance, in UK ..., that there is roadworks / traffic, so I may very well manage to get further than expected, and thus able to exercise a second-choice where at the outset that would be touch-and-go for range but otherwise a better option - e.g. no detour.
My view is that IF Supercharging is readily available then just drive-and-charge. I've seen various reports that the charge-time vs. additional-drive-time (at slower speed) breaks even at anything from 75MPH to 100 MPH, so certainly at normal "motorway speeds" I think I'm better off driving normally. (Hadn't thought about it before, but given that bigger battery charges faster the best-cruise-speed may favour larger battery, offset by extra consumption ... but its beyond my maths!)
I don't know how AP2 performs, but the variation between Distance=MIN & MAX on my AP1 seems pretty haphazard, Distance=1 is closer than i would choose to follow a car, but not so close that I would not drive like that manually ... and Distance=MAX is perhaps barely 3 seconds (at 70 MPH), but all of them vary in time/distance, whereas I would have expected the settings to be repeatably spot-on for interval-time (or spot-on-for-time-at-given-speed). Perhaps AP2 is more consistent?
But I'm not sure, for anyone who is uncomfortable with it, that it is necessary to drive Distance=1 for draughting? From what i have read even a "reasonable gap" is still a significant fuel saving. No empirical data though, and I've only desperately sought out a Truck on one journey ... and there weren't any, so I limped along at 45 MPH for 20 minutes until I got to Supercharger.
Long story short, the closer the better, but only slightly. About 20' back was almost as good as just a few feet.
I still say get 100D, even if 75D seems like it's enough. If you can afford it then why not. Yes it is a bit of money but it's also a bit of leeway in case of emergency or some unforeseen scenario. Also all depends on driving style. I have never been able to get the mileage the car says I should. Its fun accelerating off the line
If you plan to keep car for a while there is also issue of battery degration. I have recently read an article about Tesla battery degration. It seems on average there is an eventual loss. All lithium ion batteries start to loose how much charge they can hold.
I can live with a loss on a 100D, I think on a 75D it might become an issue. Especially in colder climates.
100D wouldn't be of any benefit to me, might as well just burn some cash in the fire or drive around with 150 kg of sand bags. You could apply the same logic if there was a 150D or 200D available. At some point you simply have enough range available for range itself to be a non-issue and for me the 75D is already at that point with its 150 mile range. Others may well need more for their usage profiles and then the considerable cost and increase in weight may be worthwhile. Even if the cost to upgrade was only a couple of grand I still wouldn't bother because of the extra weight and lack of usage. I haven't even charged my 75D beyond 85% or been much below 20% yet. For the odd trip that I plan to do over 150 miles I'll make full use of the SCs and destination charging as and when required. For £17K I could even rent a 100D for those few trips and still be way ahead on cost.
Again, you can only make a personal call on this choice based on your usage and willingness to throw more money at it for the convenience. It's very easy to say just get a 100D to be sure you won't get caught short on range, but it's a lot of money if you really don't need it.
Surely that's the whole 'point' of these posts, if your lucky enough to consider £17K to be just 'a bit of money' than a 100D is a no-brainer, infact just get the P100D L, that's only a bit more money.
