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UK's Best Charging Networks. Results are in. Suprising exactly no one

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#6
pdk42 said:
What we need is an Ofcharge or some similar government regulator. That way we could boot Ecotricity out and get a proper operator in.
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You are right we will need some standards and enforcement. The thing that bothers me long term is how you are billed for the AC used by a DC charger not the DC it delivers ( superchargers aside). So the less efficient the transformer in the charger the more money they make!
I appreciate that metering DC on its way out is actually quite hard but if its going to be done via AC consumed there needs to be minimum standards for efficiency of transformation and random inspections with a special calibrated vehicle designed to measure the DC kwh received to compare to what is billed.
Like we do with petrol pumps. Can you imagine if petrol pumps were allowed to spill 20% of the fuel they pumped but still bill for it?
 
#7
not sure what peoples thoughts are on https://www.gridserve.com/, however it seems like they have the right approach. Currently building one at Braintree, and a public consultation has just started for one local to me. would be great to have superchargers as part of the site, but may not be possible. Either way, can see this being a big force in charging infrastructure
 
#8
Joelly said:
not sure what peoples thoughts are on https://www.gridserve.com/, however it seems like they have the right approach. Currently building one at Braintree, and a public consultation has just started for one local to me. would be great to have superchargers as part of the site, but may not be possible. Either way, can see this being a big force in charging infrastructure
Click to expand...
There's been a thread on it. Don't think anyone was against the idea. They would not install superchargers. They would not want to limit the infrastructure to a single brand. It's not like Tesla owners would not use their generic chargers long as the price and speed was comparable. I don't have any brand loyalty to superchargers if there was something better or cheaper and or more convenient I would use it its just that, as this survey showed, right now there isn't. If this is it then good luck to them.
 
#10
Jason71 said:
You are right we will need some standards and enforcement. The thing that bothers me long term is how you are billed for the AC used by a DC charger not the DC it delivers ( superchargers aside). So the less efficient the transformer in the charger the more money they make!
I appreciate that metering DC on its way out is actually quite hard but if its going to be done via AC consumed there needs to be minimum standards for efficiency of transformation and random inspections with a special calibrated vehicle designed to measure the DC kwh received to compare to what is billed.
Like we do with petrol pumps. Can you imagine if petrol pumps were allowed to spill 20% of the fuel they pumped but still bill for it?
Click to expand...

Spot on!
The government department responsible for this issue is the Office for Product Safety and Standards (OPSS).
There is currently no approved meters for DC billing as there are no regulations specifying test requirements, max permissable errors etc.
Therefore the only method of billing is from an approved (iaw Schedule 7 of the Electricity Act 1989) AC meter and as you have pointed out conversion losses can be considerable - I was charged for 73.52 kWh from an Engenie charger in February but the car display said 61 kWh and TeslaFi reckoned I used 62.59 kWh. I queried this with Engenie and was met with a wall of silence from their technical dept.
Public charging is currently a grey area legally and sadly there isn't much of a push to grasp the nettle.
I can only suggest an enquiry to your local trading standards who should in turn prod the OPSS to get their finger out and set a standard.
Having said that I'm surprised there isn't an EU certification standard on this - or at least I haven't found it yet.
 
#11
Jason71 said:
There's been a thread on it. Don't think anyone was against the idea. They would not install superchargers. They would not want to limit the infrastructure to a single brand. It's not like Tesla owners would not use their generic chargers long as the price and speed was comparable. I don't have any brand loyalty to superchargers if there was something better or cheaper and or more convenient I would use it its just that, as this survey showed, right now there isn't. If this is it then good luck to them.
Click to expand...
thats a shame that they wont install superchargers. A site that had 24 generic and 8 superchargers would be an amazing site. Im sceptical that the pricing would be competitive (Compared to superchargers), especially given the other approaches such as Ionity with one pricing for one group, a different price for another group.
 
#12
Joelly said:
thats a shame that they wont install superchargers. A site that had 24 generic and 8 superchargers would be an amazing site. Im sceptical that the pricing would be competitive (Compared to superchargers), especially given the other approaches such as Ionity with one pricing for one group, a different price for another group.
Click to expand...

The major car manufacturers recognise that Tesla has a huge advantage over them because of the existing extensive supercharger network which they will struggle to compete with for years, despite massive investment.
The IONITY consortium will be lobbying the EU (and the UK) for Tesla to open their charging network to the public ie all EV users, just as IONITY have.
I'm just surprised IONITY have shown their hand with the differential pricing so early. I think that was a mistake but they will call it transparency.
 
#13
Mr Miserable said:
The major car manufacturers recognise that Tesla has a huge advantage over them because of the existing extensive supercharger network which they will struggle to compete with for years, despite massive investment.
The IONITY consortium will be lobbying the EU (and the UK) for Tesla to open their charging network to the public ie all EV users, just as IONITY have.
I'm just surprised IONITY have shown their hand with the differential pricing so early. I think that was a mistake but they will call it transparency.
Click to expand...
I think it will be difficult though not impossible for the EU / UK to force Tesla to open up the network. What I can see happening though is their expansion being restricted. There is a limit on grid infrastructure in most places and I can see resistance to allowing a one make charger network to grab it all. Previously Tesla would want to install superchargers and the site owner would be happy to do a deal and the planners would like why not its not like anyone else is using it.
Going forward I see planners and maybe site owners to prefer installation of chargers that support all cars, Even if its ionity who are trying to price most people out. If there is enough infrastructure for both then fine but if its either or then I see Tesla increasingly loosing out on prime sites like new motorway services. It's just a theory but we will see. And lets be honest the only reason we like the SuC network is that we have Teslas so we benefit, Eventually all charging needs to be universal. You don't see any one make petrol stations. When there are enough chargers that the SuC network is no longer a significant competitive advantage to sell cars Tesla will sell it or open it up. That could be a while yet though based on current progress......
 
#14
Jason71 said:
I think it will be difficult though not impossible for the EU / UK to force Tesla to open up the network. What I can see happening though is their expansion being restricted. There is a limit on grid infrastructure in most places and I can see resistance to allowing a one make charger network to grab it all. Previously Tesla would want to install superchargers and the site owner would be happy to do a deal and the planners would like why not its not like anyone else is using it.
Going forward I see planners and maybe site owners to prefer installation of chargers that support all cars, Even if its ionity who are trying to price most people out. If there is enough infrastructure for both then fine but if its either or then I see Tesla increasingly loosing out on prime sites like new motorway services. It's just a theory but we will see. And lets be honest the only reason we like the SuC network is that we have Teslas so we benefit, Eventually all charging needs to be universal. You don't see any one make petrol stations. When there are enough chargers that the SuC network is no longer a significant competitive advantage to sell cars Tesla will sell it or open it up. That could be a while yet though based on current progress......
Click to expand...
totally agree that we will see the Tesla supercharger network opened up at some point, but it would be unfair if it were opened up now. It either needs to be sold at substantial cost, or other infrastructure needs to be up to scratch. Given Ionity, when it does happen I would love to see Tesla charge 75p per KW for non teslas, whilst Tesla's are charged 24p haha.
 
#16
I think most sites have enough real estate to allow multiple vendor solutions (and more stalls will be needed going forward), but care will be needed in sharing power capacity.

I don't see sites as needing a vendor monopoly (vendor diversity would be beneficial) and those that currently are I would like to think if the current incumbent cannot provide a reliable or multi vehicle manufacturer service, its monopoly is revoked to allow other vendors in.
 
#17
VanillaAir_UK said:
I think most sites have enough real estate to allow multiple vendor solutions (and more stalls will be needed going forward), but care will be needed in sharing power capacity.

I don't see sites as needing a vendor monopoly (vendor diversity would be beneficial) and those that currently are I would like to think if the current incumbent cannot provide a reliable or multi vehicle manufacturer service, its monopoly is revoked to allow other vendors in.
Click to expand...
Agreed space is not an issue. Power is 100% the problem. Once you use all the capacity at a location bringing in Additional power costs millions in some locations
 
#18
Jason71 said:
You are right we will need some standards and enforcement. The thing that bothers me long term is how you are billed for the AC used by a DC charger not the DC it delivers ( superchargers aside). So the less efficient the transformer in the charger the more money they make!
I appreciate that metering DC on its way out is actually quite hard but if its going to be done via AC consumed there needs to be minimum standards for efficiency of transformation and random inspections with a special calibrated vehicle designed to measure the DC kwh received to compare to what is billed.
Like we do with petrol pumps. Can you imagine if petrol pumps were allowed to spill 20% of the fuel they pumped but still bill for it?
Click to expand...
Metering DC is as easy as AC
 
#19
Cnixon said:
Metering DC is as easy as AC
Click to expand...
I know you can measure DC current, but I have read several stories saying its an issue trying to do it in car charging stations right now and there is not much incentive for the charge networks to do something about it until they are forced to. Its not really in their interest.
Porsche develops precision measuring for HPC - electrive.com
https://electrek.co/2020/01/07/update-californias-ban-on-per-minute-billing-what-you-need-to-know/
 
#20
pdk42 said:
What we need is an Ofcharge or some similar government regulator. That way we could boot Ecotricity out and get a proper operator in.
Click to expand...

Noooooooo. The last thing we need is for the government to get its oar in. This is one place where the market will work.

Dishonourable mention: There's a ChargePoint near the M1 sited at a nice rural deli near me (Harpers). The owner says that no one has ever used it. No surprise. 45p per Kwh and it isn't even listed on the ChargePoint map :)
 
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