Cottonwood
Roadster#433, Model S#S37
Nice charts! Thanks!!
What is your source for these data? How did you collect the data for these charts?
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[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
- Thread starter krisg81
- Start date
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
Nice charts! Thanks!!
What is your source for these data? How did you collect the data for these charts?
Kalud
Active Member
Awesome, thank you.
More data showing Tesla needs an explanation of why every model of the Model S puts out advertised horsepower, and why the P85D puts out almost 150HP less than advertised. Also, they need to say HOW they got to the 691HP number, how they got the 422HP number for the 85D, and how they got the 329HP for the 70D. Something doesn't make sense here. I truly think the 691HP number was some BS for marketing reasons and they pulled it out of thin air from some type of hypothetical calculations.
All they did was take the P85 motor and put a front motor in it, which resulted in less than 100HP increase, and ramped acceleration curves. That plus AWD gives us the "insane" mode. 691HP = complete BS. They could have easily marketed it with 560HP and 3.1 seconds, but like they favor advertising the price of the car WITH incentives, they are advertising a completely fabricated horsepower number for the P85D. Huge thumbs down for Elon on this!
More data showing Tesla needs an explanation of why every model of the Model S puts out advertised horsepower, and why the P85D puts out almost 150HP less than advertised. Also, they need to say HOW they got to the 691HP number, how they got the 422HP number for the 85D, and how they got the 329HP for the 70D. Something doesn't make sense here. I truly think the 691HP number was some BS for marketing reasons and they pulled it out of thin air from some type of hypothetical calculations.
All they did was take the P85 motor and put a front motor in it, which resulted in less than 100HP increase, and ramped acceleration curves. That plus AWD gives us the "insane" mode. 691HP = complete BS. They could have easily marketed it with 560HP and 3.1 seconds, but like they favor advertising the price of the car WITH incentives, they are advertising a completely fabricated horsepower number for the P85D. Huge thumbs down for Elon on this!
Kalud
Active Member
Well, its been said numerous time already but the 691hp is simply the total of both motors rating. 221hp front + 470hp rear, total 691hp. What's missing is the battery maximum power output which looks like in the range of 415kW.
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And this makes me wonder about the 470hp rear motor rating in the P85 and P85D.
470hp is 350kW
You've got 363kW (486hp) earlier. Could be actually the motor's limit assuming 96.7% efficiency from the inverter. 96.7% of 486hp is indeed 470hp.
Using the same maths, to drive both P85D motors to their full potential of 691hp you would need 714hp, or in kW, 532kW of peak battery output. At 400V its 1330 amps (6.26C)... I can imagine fuses blowing at those level.
If this is the case, its just another reason why Tesla should not be advertising the car with 691HP, as clearly there are hardware limitations that do not allow the car at any point make 691 horsepower. If the battery is limiting the power, then the car is NOT 691HP, however you spin it.
That's like putting a 750HP capable V12 engine in a Lamborghini, and Lamborghini advertises it as 750HP - but the fuel pump and fuel injectors only flow enough fuel to allow the horsepower to hit 610HP. Just because the motor CAN put out the power, and isn't delivering advertised horsepower, means it should not be SOLD as a car with XXX amount of HP.
This also shows Tesla's way of advertising horsepower is all about show and how well it displays on their website, with no rhyme or reason how HP is marketed as the other models put out the same (if not MORE) HP then what is advertised. They can claim XXX amount of HP per motor and total it up, but the P85D is the only vehicle in the fleet that does not seem to live up to their horsepower claims. I guess Elon & Co. wanted to get the hype going with 691 horsepower as that sounded a lot better than 560 horsepower.
I feel Motor Trend or Car & Driver needs to get on this and do independent testing and publish the results publicly and put Tesla on blast for their advertising claims. I think that could prove to be a big boo-boo at Tesla HQ, in my opinion!
TESLA I want an explanation..!
As noted earlier, the cell level fuses should be able to handle ~6C without much issue. They consistently pop under ~8C load.
The main pack fuse in the P85 is ~630A, but allows much higher than this for short periods. It is very likely the pack fuse in the "DUAL MTR" packs is upgraded.
IMO the car could deliver 691 HP / 515+kW in short intervals if the inverters/motors were told to do so.
Of note: I've seen this exactly once in 2.5 years of my P85 Sig. It wouldn't be surprising to me at all if this was a rare occurrence of "near ideal" conditions of temperature, elevation, terrain, etc.
Note that the drive unit was replaced around 20k miles IIRC, and I haven't seen metrics near 360kW since. So it might be that the original drive unit was running a bit hotter than it was supposed to -- I don't mean a governor, but rather "behaving out of spec" (i.e. "overclocked by accident").
thegruf
Active Member
and just to fuel kris up some more the 85D was shown on some international areas of the website as 514hp (2 x 257hp) for a while. So the 221hp motor clearly can do more.
I recall some have produced real figures on here to support this.
imho hte P85D has more to come around Apr 30 as a "warm up act"
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Are the fuses inside the cooled region of the pack? - if so they could handle quite a bit more.
Does anyone know much about the different intverters fitted to various models?
I recall some have produced real figures on here to support this.
imho hte P85D has more to come around Apr 30 as a "warm up act"
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Are the fuses inside the cooled region of the pack? - if so they could handle quite a bit more.
Does anyone know much about the different intverters fitted to various models?
So I'll admit that the 691 hp rating is what initially drew me in to look at the PD and that other factors lead to further rationalization for the purchase.
However, when I first test drove it, I believed the claims because the 0-60 punch is so fast and certainly consistent with a huge heavy sedan with the claimed power. Further more, during the small freeway portion of the test drive, the cars speed was limited to 80 mph so when I punched it at 70 only to hit 80 and have the power pulled back, I attributed the lack of passing power as the speed limiter set for test drives.
Had this not been set, i would have immediately noticed that the car did not move like a 2.5 ton almost 700 hp car.
I bought the P85D believing it had the claimed power. Other models of Teslas already had proven that their claimed power was not only true, but actually more than claimed. If we go on that basis, we might even expect the PD to actually make more than that.
Now it's obvious it doesn't even come close.
I believe Tesla is going to have to answer for this. Dyno's from the PD population will start to come to light and the awareness in both the community and the media will move beyond this thread and Tesla is going to have to address this.
Is it possible they knew about this and figured that they'd fix it in a software update before it was likely to become a full blown media s--- storm?
However, when I first test drove it, I believed the claims because the 0-60 punch is so fast and certainly consistent with a huge heavy sedan with the claimed power. Further more, during the small freeway portion of the test drive, the cars speed was limited to 80 mph so when I punched it at 70 only to hit 80 and have the power pulled back, I attributed the lack of passing power as the speed limiter set for test drives.
Had this not been set, i would have immediately noticed that the car did not move like a 2.5 ton almost 700 hp car.
I bought the P85D believing it had the claimed power. Other models of Teslas already had proven that their claimed power was not only true, but actually more than claimed. If we go on that basis, we might even expect the PD to actually make more than that.
Now it's obvious it doesn't even come close.
I believe Tesla is going to have to answer for this. Dyno's from the PD population will start to come to light and the awareness in both the community and the media will move beyond this thread and Tesla is going to have to address this.
Is it possible they knew about this and figured that they'd fix it in a software update before it was likely to become a full blown media s--- storm?
They are not cooled, no. The cells are only cooled by a cooling loop that touches them on one side in the middle of the vertical cylinder of the cell. The fuses are on either side of this ~1" away. They would not be cooled in any significant way.
I've seen the two drive units up close, they appear to have different inverters. Aside from that I don't know any details about them.
I have a 550bhp v8 at the moment and the p85d will absolutely annihilate it. Tesla is heavier and if it does only produce 560bhp according to the graphs posted 2 pages back, why is a heavier car able to easily gain and pull away on my old hat v8?
I havent followed this thread closely enough but it seems plausible that any power reduction is due to limited power from the battery. It should achieve up to 500kW but nobody ever sees this right?
only thing i want to ensure is rolling / passing power is insane too.
I havent followed this thread closely enough but it seems plausible that any power reduction is due to limited power from the battery. It should achieve up to 500kW but nobody ever sees this right?
only thing i want to ensure is rolling / passing power is insane too.
From a stop, All Wheel Drive + a lot of torque does "annihilate" many vehicles.. imagine what it would do if it actually produced the advertised 691HP and not just 560HP!
My P85D has been "annihilated" by two of my friends in their cars. My buddy has a 2014 BMW M5 and we both punched it from a 55MPH roll onto the freeway. The M5 pulled away so quickly he called my cell right away and asked why I didn't try. Well, I did try :/
Two days ago I ran my friends 2014 E63 AMG from a stop light. I beat him pretty well off the line. We got onto the toll road, and both punched it from 45MPH or so. It pulled away very nicely from me.
Both of those cars are 575 and 577HP. The P85D is 691HP and performed like a 400HP ICE vehicle against them from a rolling start, where actual horsepower comes into play- not gobs of torque off the line.
Before anyone jumps in and says "WELLLL I would prefer the big torque at the start vs rolling starts.. blah blah" thats where the horsepower claim comes into play, and the 691HP P85D simply doesn't put down 691HP like an ICE vehicle does. I avoid roll starts like the plague and only go from a start now, where AWD + lots of torque wins off the line. Fact is, if this was a true 691HP vehicle it would be much faster than just 0-60MPH and not feel just like Tesla's 422HP version from 50MPH and on.
Because you didn't give any real information
Joking aside I'm assuming you mean from a standstill and not while you're already up to speed. The reason the P85D kills your 550hp whatever it s(what is it btw?) is because the Tesla puts down more power earlier because it produces maximum torque from 0 RPMs. The speed at which you get to 60 is about how much power is put down over the time it takes to get there, not how much peak power is produced by either ICE or electric. The Tesla is a very very wide power band and it's all available right at the start while your ICE engine is not likely peaking in 1st gear until after 30 mph comes. By then, it's already over.I'll bet your 550 hp whatever you kills the Tesla in a 60 - 80 mph rolling start.
thegruf
Active Member
dont forget gearing too (or lack of it in Tesla case)
AWTQ is where it really is for acceleration.
AWTQ is where it really is for acceleration.
Yeah gearing would help too, but honestly if the car actually did produce 691HP like it's supposed too I'd be totally happy, that means that power delivery would be all relative I'd imagine, so technically there should be 150 more HP than is actually being produced, so imagine another 150HP from 50-80MPH.. The car would definitely feel "insane" then, and not from just a stop.
Agreed. Even if they only limited it to 3 second bursts to prevent battery and drive unit overheating. I don't need to race it on the track but the occasional punch on the freeway would be a lot more valuable.
EarlyAdopter
Active Member
That is because those cars have transmissions and the Model S has a single gear. Has nothing to do with how much peak power either car can generate.
I'm really getting sick and tired of your blabbering on about this, over and over and over again, none of based on any facts or understanding of how mechanics work. It's not the ignorance I can't stand - I'm more than happy to see people learn new things. It's your unwillingness to listen to others.
Perhaps you'd be happier with one of those other cars.
dennis
Model S Plaid
Thank you for voicing the frustration that I'm sure many of us are feeling. We read these threads to find new information and insight, not an endless restating of the same position.
Feel free to never look back at this thread, a thread and topic I created. Maybe create a thread and blabber your thoughts. It has nothing to do with just gearing, its proven the P85D does not output the advertised horsepower. It's single gearbox would simply perform better with an actual 691 horsepower versus the approximate 560 horsepower the motors currently generate.
But by all means, keep blabbering how 560HP is just like 691HP and how gears have anything to do with putting out less horsepower then advertised.
PS- I don't want one of those other cars. I would buy one or both of them if I wanted. I just want my P85D to put out the 691 HP I paid for, not 560 HP. Is that too hard to understand?
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