[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[stopcrazypp]

I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating here: The launch of Ludicrous Mode as a high cost, high margin option also guarantees that someone will be wronged, no matter what Tesla do next.

Continue the hide evidence, obfuscate and ignore policy and existing P85D owners do not get what they were promised – unless they pay $5k plus labour on top of what they paid already, and assuming they even own the car. (Presumably, you get to sit and suck lemons if you’re leasing.)

Make right on promises to existing P85D owners and you have another dilemma: There are now P90D owners who just paid $10k for the thing you’re now giving away. Legally they would have no recourse, but I bet most of them would never buy a Tesla again if you left things there. Do you refund them?

What about orders in progress? New orders?

The sensible thing to do would’ve been to introduce Ludicrous as standard on all new PxxD models and adjust the base price (and be less greedy with margins.) Bit late for that now, though.

Yeah, this whole thing has been bungled beyond belief.

Ludicrous however is not just matching the old specs of the P85D (under the assumptions of those complaining; thus I am putting aside the 0-60 improvement at the moment). It gives something drastically beyond that. The P85D was advertised at 11.7 in the 1/4 mile. This was never disputed and has been verified numerous times.

The Ludicrous mode gets 10.9 in the 1/4 mile. I think that is where the $5000 comes from.

 

[sorka]

Ludicrous however is not just matching the old specs of the P85D (under the assumptions of those complaining; thus I am putting aside the 0-60 improvement at the moment). It gives something drastically beyond that. The P85D was advertised at 11.7 in the 1/4 mile. This was never disputed and has been verified numerous times.

The Ludicrous mode gets 10.9 in the 1/4 mile. I think that is where the $5000 comes from.

Where exactly did Tesla advertise the P85D with an 11.7 1/4 mile time??? The only reason I know it does it in 11.7 is because I've seen the time slips.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Where exactly did Tesla advertise the P85D with an 11.7 1/4 mile time??? The only reason I know it does it in 11.7 is because I've seen the time slips.

Let me dig up the source. I am fairly certain I've seen a screenshot posted where Tesla listed 1/4 mile times (but no trap times).

 

[JER]

The P85D was advertised at 11.7 in the 1/4 mile.

I'm not disputing that. However, it's also not disputed that the "high speed" upgrade was promised in a footnote for several months (and never delivered.)

As previously argued, Ludicrous appears to be essentially that (only with the hardware upgrade needed to stop things melting.) Ludicrous delivers precisely the 0-60 (without rollout) and close(r) to the claimed power output announced last October.

The Ludicrous mode gets 10.9 in the 1/4 mile. I think that is where the $5000 comes from.

The $5k has to account for changing a small steel component for Inconel 690 or something, and the smart fuse. Actually, I heard the Inconel part is in non-Ludicrous PxxD cars too, so maybe just the fuse. $5k does seem rather far-fetched, and in any case the cost on new vehicles is $10k. Even if $5k is the real cost price, there's a 100% margin on the option.

I'm certainly not against Tesla getting more revenue; they sure have a lot of good things to spend it on. However, the marketing choices around Ludicrous Mode were perhaps not the best way of obtaining it.

 

[sorka]

Let me dig up the source. I am fairly certain I've seen a screenshot posted where Tesla listed 1/4 mile times (but no trap times).

I saw this claim once before and checked multiple periods in the way back machine and never saw Tesla show a 1/4 time.

 

[JER]

I saw this claim once before and checked multiple periods in the way back machine and never saw Tesla show a 1/4 time.

If I recall correctly, a time for non-Ludicrous was briefly on the website after the July announcement. Like so many claims, it's since been redacted.

Note that Wayback doesn't catch every change.

 

[sorka]

If I recall correctly, a time for non-Ludicrous was briefly on the website after the July announcement. Like so many claims, it's since been redacted.

Note that Wayback doesn't catch every change.

All but 3 days in July and August of 2014 were captured with changes. The 3 days that were not probably didn't have any changes.

So which day in July or August had the 1/4 mile time advertised?

 

[JER]

So which day in July or August had the 1/4 mile time advertised?

I don't know. I've only a vague (and possibly mistaken) recollection of two 1/4 mi times being quoted, with and without Ludicrous. Don't even remember the numbers, other than one was ten point something and the other eleven point something.

It could also have been in the Design Studio, which doesn't necessarily match what's on the Model S page and doesn't appear to get crawled properly by Wayback (presumably due to it being dynamic content.)

 

[stopcrazypp]

I saw this claim once before and checked multiple periods in the way back machine and never saw Tesla show a 1/4 time.

The way back machine doesn't display the pages correctly for 2014 (I think it is either Javascript or because of a change in formatting).

It's taking too long to dig through the thread (not even sure it's this thread specifically, as there are other threads that discuss similar), so I just googled it.

Anyways, at launch in October 2014 Tesla published all the 1/4 mile numbers for comparison purposes vs single motor. P85D was actually advertised at 11.8 for the 1/4 mile vs 12.6 for the P85.

Quarter Mile Times

60D: 14 sec (vs 14.2 sec)
85D: 13.5 sec (vs 13.7 sec)
P85D: 11.8 sec (vs 12.6 sec)

http://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/news/a6358/first-look-tesla-model-s-p85d-dual-motor/

 

[Andyw2100]

Ludicrous however is not just matching the old specs of the P85D (under the assumptions of those complaining; thus I am putting aside the 0-60 improvement at the moment). It gives something drastically beyond that.

So?

That's fine.

Assuming agreement on the point that Tesla initially shorted the original P85D customers, only delivering exactly what they were supposed to originally would actually still be leaving us short, in that we would not have had the expected HP for the time from when we took delivery until the time the correction is made. But that's not even the main point. The main point is that since Tesla was the party in the wrong here, there's absolutely nothing wrong with them delivering a little more than what was originally paid for to make up for it. Good companies do things like this all the time. It's called providing good customer service. From what I hear, that's something Tesla used to take pride in.

 

[JER]

I’ll repeat:

• Ludicrous does not give "drastically more" acceleration 0-60 than announced in October 2014 for the P85D; it gives precisely what was promised.
• Ludicrous does not give "drastically more" power than announced last October, it gives slightly less.

To clarify: Power and mass together imply a level of high-speed acceleration can be achieved ("high" being anywhere past the transition from traction limited to power limited.) The fact is that – even with Ludicrous – PxxD never delivers 691HP in any part of its performance envelope, at any state of charge, measured at any point in the powertrain. We now know why: parts of the original HV current path would melt if the PEM attempted to draw anywhere near this much.

Also note that this is a separate issue from both power drop approaching top speed (due to back-EMF) and thermal power throttling (because the rotor cooling can’t keep up). The issue is that the car never achieves the advertised output, under any conceivable measuring scheme or conditions.

Ludicrous is not more than P85D owners were promised. It’s slightly less. I have to admire Elon's guts for believing his team could do this OTA and with the original hardware, but it was a mistake.

I do want to keep some perspective here: It's still the best luxury sports sedan ever made. Maybe the best car ever made, depending on your criteria. However, that does make exaggerating its capabilities in a reputation-threatening way all the more bewildering.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Tesla added the 1 foot rollout disclaimer to their main U.S. order page:

The total output hp is now listed under the specifications on the MS page for all, except P85D variants; the 1/4 mile times are listed there as well:

70 13.8s 382hp rear motor, 315hp output
70D 13.5s 259hp front/rear motor, 328hp total output
85 13.5s 382hp rear motor, 373hp output
85D 12.5s 259hp front/rear motor, 417hp total output
P85D 10.9s (ludicrous)

 

[Laserbrain]

The way Tesla handles their fake horsepower and rollout scam is really pathetic.

Such a great car, but they still treat their (future) customers like idiots. I don't get it.

 

[JER]

The way Tesla handles their fake horsepower and rollout scam is really pathetic.

Such a great car, but they still treat their (future) customers like idiots. I don't get it.

Yes, probably the biggest mistake of all is thinking they won't get called out on this BS.

 

[scottf200]

The total output hp is now listed under the specifications on the MS page for all, except P85D variants; the 1/4 mile times are listed there as well:

70 13.8s 382hp rear motor, 315hp output
70D 13.5s 259hp front/rear motor, 328hp total output
85 13.5s 382hp rear motor, 373hp output
85D 12.5s 259hp front/rear motor, 417hp total output
P85D 10.9s (ludicrous)

Model S
Image: http://i.imgur.com/a70y9KJ.png

Model X
Image: http://i.imgur.com/U4ahqwx.png

Image: http://i.imgur.com/ChdbrD9.png

 

[stopcrazypp]

I’ll repeat:

• Ludicrous does not give "drastically more" acceleration 0-60 than announced in October 2014 for the P85D; it gives precisely what was promised.
• Ludicrous does not give "drastically more" power than announced last October, it gives slightly less.

I'm referring only to the 1/4 mile, which did have a notable improvement from the original promise. I'm not talking about the rest (I've already made my points about those in previous comments, so I don't want to drive the thread to have more back and forth on those points).

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not disputing that. However, it's also not disputed that the "high speed" upgrade was promised in a footnote for several months (and never delivered.)

As you note, it was only there for several months. It was not there for launch and was removed after the 0-60 improvement update (6.2 if I remember correctly). Also the notice never promised specific numbers for the high speed part (while 0-60 promised improvement from 3.2 to 3.1).

Also as I noted previously, the high speed performance did improve in a similar way to 0-60. 0-60 improved 0.09 seconds, 60-100 improved 0.08 seconds.
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...eement/page9?p=1081511&viewfull=1#post1081511

 

[smac]

I do want to keep some perspective here: It's still the best luxury sports sedan ever made. Maybe the best car ever made, depending on your criteria. However, that does make exaggerating its capabilities in a reputation-threatening way all the more bewildering.

^ This. Tesla have such a great product, and I agree with your previous post that the original claims were in good faith, however the subsequent mess created by how they have dealt with the fuse issue are worrying.

I see you are also in the UK, did you pick up a P85D?

I'm sure the frustration is magnified here, as this all blew up while the cars were literally out for delivery, and the Ludicrous (and bigger battery) update announced before even the first car was delivered.

I'm not ordering another UK Model S, until they get some stability in their product line. I got stung on the AP hardware with a UK launch car. To me the P85D was effectively another launch car with people waiting 10 months, only for it to be delivered and already superseded

I'm looking to see if Tesla, as a gesture of goodwill, retrospectively install UK cars with new fuses, it would certainly alter my judgement on whether I'll by new or just a CPO when mine's up for replacement!

I'm 100% in agreement the whole thing has been bungled, an innocent mistake was made, then spun into a marketing piece rather than addressing the original issue.

 

[thegruf]

Why do Tesla only apply the 1 foot rollout to the P85D + P90D not the other models?

If it is motor power why do the same motors magically become more powerful in the P90D

Looks like a rather poor fudge to me, possibly in response to posts here and elsewhere and the end result is even more inconsistency on the Tesla website for potential owners to try to work out.
Disappointing.

 

[rns-e]

So in my opinion, the case for 0-60 spec deficiencies is still weak.

I think we are at a point where it is time to test the strength of the case. I'll start talking to relevant advisors on monday.

 

[hpham007]

I think we are at a point where it is time to test the strength of the case. I'll start talking to relevant advisors on monday.

I would guess that with even a minor chance of a class action, Tesla will find a solution quickly and efficiently. There is no way they would allow this to go to the discovery phase where they would have to disclose info such as percentage of DU failures, true warranty costs, etc...