[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[rns-e]

Let's take Tesla and cars out of the equation and look at it in a different light:


I went to the bakers yesterday and bought 12 cakes for $100. They also had on offer 10 cakes for $80. Now I didn't really need 12, but they had some extra red sprinkles, so I thought what the heck. The baker seemed a nice man, and he told me his bakery was inventing some new cake formula that was so much cheaper in the future children in the orphanage would be able to buy cakes that tasted just as good as mine for $0.50 a go.

I got home and ate some of the cakes and they were might delicious. In fact they were the best cakes I'd ever tasted.

The next day having eaten far too many cakes, and feeling a bit sick if I'm honest, I noticed there was only 11 cakes in the box not 12

So I phoned the baker to ask if I could have another cake.

The nice baker then explained to me that: "The '12 cake' offer referred to the number of cakes that could possibly fit in the packaging and not actually the number of cakes."

I wasn't happy about this at all. I said "But I thought I bought 12 cakes and only received 11. If I knew this I might have bought the package with 10 cakes which clearly had 10 actual cakes in them. How can this be?"

The baker quickly replies "Well for any cakes sales over 10, Baking Trend Magazine considers this to be 'Extreme Confectionery' and we use their standard of measurement which is not based on true counting, rather how people in eating competitions are given a head start"

Still confused I asked "What about the 11 cake offer you did last year? I bought that and received 11 actual cakes?"

"Well," says the baker, "I have a new offer coming. It is my special "Baker's Dozen" deal. Here I sell you 13* cakes, but you receive 12 actual cakes in a package that could fit 13. What I can do is take one of the cakes from that and give it to you for a special price. But it will cost you $5"


I still think the cakes are tasty. However now they have a bitter after taste.


Personally I think the owners deserve their extra cake!!

I knew there was a better way to explain this! Thank you, now I'm actually craving some good cake

 

[kennybobby]

i love the cake story, as it seems the noble goal of providing cheap EVs for widespread adoption by the masses (the 50¢ cakes) has been forgotten by TM in their pursuit of bigger or faster and more expensive vehicles. Tesla cars were primarily built so that rich EV owners in california would not have to drive a Leaf to their meetings to mingle with other rich folks driving their luxury MB, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, etc.

 

[Stoneymonster]

i love the cake story, as it seems the noble goal of providing cheap EVs for widespread adoption by the masses (the 50¢ cakes) has been forgotten by TM in their pursuit of bigger or faster and more expensive vehicles. Tesla cars were primarily built so that rich EV owners in california would not have to drive a Leaf to their meetings to mingle with other rich folks driving their luxury MB, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, etc.

What?

 

[smac]

I knew there was a better way to explain this! Thank you, now I'm actually craving some good cake

lol, me too

 

[Krugerrand]

i love the cake story, as it seems the noble goal of providing cheap EVs for widespread adoption by the masses (the 50¢ cakes) has been forgotten by TM in their pursuit of bigger or faster and more expensive vehicles. Tesla cars were primarily built so that rich EV owners in california would not have to drive a Leaf to their meetings to mingle with other rich folks driving their luxury MB, Ferrari, Porsche, Lambo, etc.

Yeah, um...no. TM has not forgotten the goal of the Secret Master Plan; Gigafactory, anyone? That little $5 billion project needed to reduce battery prices by 20/30%+ for the Model 3. And no, Tesla cars were not primarily built so that rich EV owners in California, blah, blah, blah. The Model S was built so that it could pave the way to the Model 3...which it has done in spades and why the Model X could be delayed as long as it was. The Model S also paved the way for AWD Model X and the start of Autopilot features, and paved the way for a very impressive start to the SuperCharger Network, and, and, and.

 

[ggenge]

Took my P85D to a race track yesterday. Wasn't able to complete a single lap at full power (90% charged). Just a few corners and you're at 240kW. Push on and it will be less. Result is lap times similar to Golf GTi, Toyota GT86, Mazda RX8 and the likes. Also drove my Mercedes wagon and got 8 sec/lap less on a 2.5 mile track.

This is disappointing news as I was hoping to track my car and see what it could do. I had a GT-R and that was an amazing car on the track, so much fun and easy to drive really really fast. I am torn as this is the most amazing car I have ever imagined owning, but at the same time I am realizing that I was over sold a little on the old horsepower and torque ratings. So now that begs the question, should I upgrade to Ludicrous mode for $5000 to go from drawing 1200 to 1500 Amps which will create even more heat, and last what, less that 2 minutes before I am Limited. Will I really gain a 10% faster time, and have 20% more power above 30KM/h - now I am not so sure. I will likely have to take advantage of the $5000 offer, even if it is for resale value alone. Consumer reports that gave the car an amazing 103/100 still only published the P85D 0-60 as 3.5 seconds, that by all accounts is more that 10% lower than "advertised". I am a huge raving fan of Tesla, but I am now thinking that Tesla needs to come clean on these performance numbers and at least give us some details of exactly how they were calculated and what an owner should really expect when they get their car. Tesla has done an AMAZING job building this car, no doubt, but I still think that correct expectations need to be set for all owners ahead of buying the car.

Then there are the expectations set with Auto Pilot, that will for sure be a challenge for Tesla to live up to that, as just the adaptive cruise seems a little on the edge of its abilities, I do love it when stuck in traffic, I just wish it was a little less "jerky" and could look ahead more that just one car.

All in all though, I am growing to Love Love Love my Tesla, even with all its little quirks and bobbles, its an amazing machine, an at least with a software defined car, it should get better with updates, so there is hope.

 

[Uncle Paul]

Wonder if we might be overthinking this whole thing.

Elon likes fast cars. Bought several very high performance models after selling Paypal for a bundle.

Since he likes fast cars...and he is running Tesla, he has approved the manufacturer of fast cars. He is not building race cars. He is not producing the fastest cars in the world, he is building on the electric car theme, and they have certain performance characteristics that he can take advantage of. This means tremendous low end torque, and instant response. He is not competing with all the other high performance and race cars of the world, just trying to make the best possible electric cars he can, within the business and technological restraints.

Tesla has their own internal methods to measure performance. Most likely if you use other parameters, you will get different numbers. Most every magazine gets different performance and handling numbers when they test other cars too. One magazine will show a bit faster performance, and another will show a different number. Somehow we need to get our attention off all these different testing modalities and concentrate more on the driving experience that the cars offer. I believe this is more of what owners really enjoy about the cars. Striving to obtain certain numbers makes us concentrate more on the destination than the journey.

 

[JER]

It's well established now that Model S is a poor choice for track use; one of the very few use cases where it offers poor value. A capacity shortfall of the rotor cooling seems to be the reason.

Apparently, the low regen setting helps significantly delay onset of the limiter, though its arrival is still inevitable. It might also be possible to improve lap times through an optimised power use strategy, saving heat capacity for where maximum acceleration yields the most benefit.

I look forward to seeing what Tesla's next Roadster will do. Hopefully, they'll have a better way of cooling the rotor by then.

 

[peteyswift]

Somehow we need to get our attention off all these different testing modalities and concentrate more on the driving experience that the cars offer. I believe this is more of what owners really enjoy about the cars. Striving to obtain certain numbers makes us concentrate more on the destination than the journey.

I hear you, but Tesla is the one pushing the numbers: 691, 762, 2.8, 3.2, Insane, Ludicrous, Max Plaid, fastest production car or whatever. So they made their bed and now they have to sleep in it.

Btw, I commend rns and the others for questioning Tesla. Tesla's a big boy now, they need to deal with the growing pains and I have some faith they will be better for it.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Let's take Tesla and cars out of the equation and look at it in a different light:


I went to the bakers yesterday and bought 12 cakes for $100. They also had on offer 10 cakes for $80. Now I didn't really need 12, but they had some extra red sprinkles, so I thought what the heck. The baker seemed a nice man, and he told me his bakery was inventing some new cake formula that was so much cheaper in the future children in the orphanage would be able to buy cakes that tasted just as good as mine for $0.50 a go.

I got home and ate some of the cakes and they were might delicious. In fact they were the best cakes I'd ever tasted.

The next day having eaten far too many cakes, and feeling a bit sick if I'm honest, I noticed there was only 11 cakes in the box not 12

So I phoned the baker to ask if I could have another cake.

The nice baker then explained to me that: "The '12 cake' offer referred to the number of cakes that could possibly fit in the packaging and not actually the number of cakes."

I wasn't happy about this at all. I said "But I thought I bought 12 cakes and only received 11. If I knew this I might have bought the package with 10 cakes which clearly had 10 actual cakes in them. How can this be?"

The baker quickly replies "Well for any cakes sales over 10, Baking Trend Magazine considers this to be 'Extreme Confectionery' and we use their standard of measurement which is not based on true counting, rather how people in eating competitions are given a head start"

Still confused I asked "What about the 11 cake offer you did last year? I bought that and received 11 actual cakes?"

"Well," says the baker, "I have a new offer coming. It is my special "Baker's Dozen" deal. Here I sell you 13* cakes, but you receive 12 actual cakes in a package that could fit 13. What I can do is take one of the cakes from that and give it to you for a special price. But it will cost you $5"


I still think the cakes are tasty. However now they have a bitter after taste.


Personally I think the owners deserve their extra cake!!

Well, pretty elaborate story, but analogy just does not hold. As I've posted before, there are additional nuts and bolts and labor to put them in, and R&D that goes with them, etc. which differentiate P85D from, say, 85D, so one missing cake is just not the case here. The car has all the parts, it is just that representation of what it can do does not meet the expectation. So we are down to whether 12 cakes taste as promised argument - the one clearly open to the various interpretations...

 

[jerjozwik]

those 12 cakes could have just tasted better. ha! now i want some cake.

 

[Hookmaker]

I hear you, but Tesla is the one pushing the numbers: 691, 762, 2.8, 3.2, Insane, Ludicrous, Max Plaid, fastest production car or whatever. So they made their bed and now they have to sleep in it.

Btw, I commend rns and the others for questioning Tesla. Tesla's a big boy now, they need to deal with the growing pains and I have some faith they will be better for it.

Thanks for supporting, I absolutely agree. Tesla Motors have done a great job which I and all of us support 100%. BUT there are rules and regulations, and because you're "new", you can't just assume people will follow you even if you break them. Hey, and you can't boast of not having any marketing staff if you end up with marketing that sucks! AND GREAT respect for Elon, one of the few "golden boys" I really admire. Honestly. BUT if you start messing around with the numbers, any "golden boy" can just as soon become a bad boy, so clean up this mess and get on with the show.

 

[rns-e]

Well, pretty elaborate story, but analogy just does not hold. As I've posted before, there are additional nuts and bolts and labor to put them in, and R&D that goes with them, etc. which differentiate P85D from, say, 85D, so one missing cake is just not the case here. The car has all the parts, it is just that representation of what it can do does not meet the expectation. So we are down to whether 12 cakes taste as promised argument - the one clearly open to the various interpretations...

I would agree if we talk a MB E320 vs MB 63AMG S, those are by any measure two different cars. But the Model S is in large the same car when looking at the 85D and P85D. The P85D has the motor from the P85 in the back, re-use from earlier model and the front is the same as in the 85D. Battery, wirering etc. is the same. So the difference between the two cars are more down to sw restrictions than anything else. And there is no way the motor in the back is $24k more expensive than a 85D back motor.

So I understand what you are trying to say and would agree when it comes to other car makers. If the P85D and P90D had a fancy bodykit then that would count for something. But it is all the same, inside and out. That is way this case is so simple - it is all about the numbers.

And as Peteyswift said, it is Tesla themselfs pushing the numbers.

 

[AWDtsla]

And as Peteyswift said, it is Tesla themselfs pushing the numbers.

Why exactly is Tesla getting singled out in this? Which car manufacturer lets you have the options and top of the line model with value for money? Is it Audi? Where going from a V8 to a V10 adds $50,000 to the price of an R8? Yeah that sounds like it. Maybe it's BMW charging $1250 for 3 pieces of fake carbon fiber trim? Oh Tesla only charger $1000 for that.

It's like everyone is a newb...

 

[rns-e]

Why exactly is Tesla getting singled out in this?

I don't know about the others and really don't care. I bought a Tesla P85D, so that is what has my focus.

If somebody has a problem with a Audi R8, feel free to take it up with Audi.

And what Audi or anywhere else is doing does not make what Tesla is doing any more right

 

[AWDtsla]

I don't know about the others and really don't care. I bought a Tesla P85D, so that is what has my focus.

If somebody has a problem with a Audi R8, feel free to take it up with Audi.

And what Audi or anywhere else is doing does not make what Tesla is doing any more right

If there wasn't so much whining about trivial and irrelevant things you might be able to focus on a real issue.

The price is what Tesla is asking for it. This is what the free market allows. If someone is makes a decision that it isn't worth the money, they are free not to buy it.

edit - and as a shareholder I fully support high margin options. They allow offering a vehicle for a lower price for those who want while still achieving a higher net margin.

 

[JER]

I'll just point out that people who pay high margins for performance are willing to do so precisely because they don't consider performance "trivial and irrelevant".

 

[peteyswift]

P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

If there wasn't so much whining about trivial and irrelevant things you might be able to focus on a real issue.

The price is what Tesla is asking for it. This is what the free market allows. If someone is makes a decision that it isn't worth the money, they are free not to buy it.

Who decides what is relevant to me or these owners? You? And when a logical question goes unanswered, as per these owners' requests, sure, the "whining" starts.

Btw, I guess Tesla thought .1 sec was pretty relevant, which is why they did an OTA to lower the 0-60 time. They also thought .2 sec was relevant when they just went to the trouble of adding space-age materials for the new contactors and fuse in Ludicrous.

To your last point, people aren't complaining about the price - otherwise they wouldn't have paid - just what they were told they were getting for that price.

 

[vgrinshpun]

Not true anymore. Suspension is identical in PD as 85D and 70D. Did you miss the Pre-april thread?

Did you miss rns-e post? He has pre-April car.

 

[SDRick]

This is what the free market allows. If someone is makes a decision that it isn't worth the money, they are free not to buy it.

This is precisely the point and why a subset of Tesla buyers have a legitimate beef. If someone made their decision to buy a $24,000 upgrade based on "facts" and these advertised facts were in error, it is too late to be "free not to buy it".


I would hope this has nothing to do with what "the free market allows" but rather the integrity of the company and the reliability and accuracy of advertised specifications.