[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[yak-55]

There still on the specs page.

And the meaningless (and deceptive) 691 hp motor power figure is still used in P85D CPO description pages (such as this one 85 kWh Performance Model S P64331 | Tesla Motors). More work to do. Sigh.

• 
  [*=center]85 kWh Battery
  [*=center]Dual Motor all wheel drive
  [*=center]285 miles range at 65 mph
  [*=center]691 hp motor power
  [*=center]3.2 seconds 0-60 mph

Every Model S receives a full inspection, remaining battery and drive warranty and a four year, 50,000 miles pre-owned limited warrantywith 24 hour roadside assistance.
This Model S is available for pickup. Shipment to your nearest service center may require a transportation fee up to $1,500. Shipment to Alaska or Hawaii may cost up to $3,000.
For more information on this Model S, call (888) 518-3752 or request a return call.

 

[vgrinshpun]

And the meaningless (and deceptive) 691 hp motor power figure is still used in P85D CPO description pages (such as this one 85 kWh Performance Model S P64331 | Tesla Motors). More work to do. Sigh.

• 
  [*=center]85 kWh Battery
  [*=center]Dual Motor all wheel drive
  [*=center]285 miles range at 65 mph
  [*=center]691 hp motor power
  [*=center]3.2 seconds 0-60 mph

Every Model S receives a full inspection, remaining battery and drive warranty and a four year, 50,000 miles pre-owned limited warrantywith 24 hour roadside assistance.
This Model S is available for pickup. Shipment to your nearest service center may require a transportation fee up to $1,500. Shipment to Alaska or Hawaii may cost up to $3,000.
For more information on this Model S, call (888) 518-3752 or request a return call.

If 691 motor hp is meaningless, how come that P85D has 0.8 sec better 0 to 60 mph acceleration?

The answer is simple for those who care about the reality, but seems to escape those who seem to enjoy being in the state of righteous indignation. The power is proportional to the product of speed and torque. Among two cars with the same battery output, the one with higher *motor* hp will have a higher torque and, therefore, a better 0 to 60 time - exactly what Tesla marketed in P85D.

 

[wk057]

If 691 motor hp is meaningless, how come that P85D has 0.8 sec better 0 to 60 mph acceleration?

The answer is simple for those who care about the reality, but seems to escape those who seem to enjoy being in the state of righteous indignation. The power is proportional to the product of speed and torque. Among two cars with the same battery output, the one with higher *motor* hp will have a higher torque and, therefore, a better 0 to 60 time - exactly what Tesla marketed in P85D.

Not true at all. If I replace both motors on my P85D with 1000 HP "motor power" motors that weighed the same as the motors that are on it, it'll be faster than a stock P85D? The answer is no because the battery can not provide more power than it already is, regardless of the size of the motors. They could be 10,000,000 HP motors and it wouldn't make a difference if the battery can only supply ~500 HP worth of juice. So there goes that theory of yours.

Interestingly, note that the 85D has the same advertised 0-60 time as the P85 used to (4.2 seconds). Yet it has a higher "motor power" number (~518 HP combined vs ~470 "motor power" for the rear unit on the P85) but an actual horsepower number (actually advertised too!) of 417 HP for the 85D... interestingly enough nearly identical to the originally advertised P85 horsepower (416 HP). The software based power ramp on the 85D keeps it from besting the P85 (presumably because Tesla knows if their lower cost model, which was originally advertised as 25% slower, now beats the P85 too badly after many people traded P85s towards P85Ds they're going to piss off a lot more people) even though for sure the AWD traction could easily shave a few more tenths off of that 0-60. So another nail in that coffin as well.

More so, for 0-60 times, the bulk of the improvement with the P85D is increased (nearly doubled) traction due to AWD. The P85D can ramp up power output faster while maintaining traction than the P85 is able to because of AWD. It doesn't even reach the same max power output of the P85 until somewhere near 30 MPH. If the P85 had the same traction as the P85D it would be tied with it until about 30 MPH where the P85D would then slowly creep away from the P85D due to the extra ~80 or so actual horsepower it's able to lay down at this point, just like it does from a 35 MPH rolling start.

I own both cars. I have a P85D and a P85 side by side in my garage. This is real data, not just made up to serve an agenda.

 

[yak-55]

If 691 motor hp is meaningless, how come that P85D has 0.8 sec better 0 to 60 mph acceleration?

The answer is simple for those who care about the reality, but seems to escape those who seem to enjoy being in the state of righteous indignation. The power is proportional to the product of speed and torque. Among two cars with the same battery output, the one with higher *motor* hp will have a higher torque and, therefore, a better 0 to 60 time - exactly what Tesla marketed in P85D.

You are confused by your assumption that peak horsepower is uniquely relevant to 0-60 times. For These vehicles, effective traction control at low speeds is much more influential.

"691 hp motor power" is deceptive because the advertised vehicle can NEVER produce it.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Not true at all. If I replace both motors on my P85D with 1000 HP "motor power" motors that weighed the same as the motors that are on it, it'll be faster than a stock P85D? The answer is no because the battery can not provide more power than it already is, regardless of the size of the motors. They could be 10,000,000 HP motors and it wouldn't make a difference if the battery can only supply ~500 HP worth of juice. So there goes that theory of yours.

It might actually. His point was the 691hp "motor power" rating (50% increase in motor power vs P85) is a proxy to saying the motor(s) can output 50% more torque than the P85 at 0 rpm. So a 1000HP "motor power" can possible improve 0-60 even further by having proportionally more torque available at the low end.

More so, for 0-60 times, the bulk of the improvement with the P85D is increased (nearly doubled) traction due to AWD.

There is not a whole lot of evidence the P85 is traction limited. Keep in the P85D is not splitting the power/torque of the 470hp "motor power" of the P85 (as with a traditional AWD car through a differential), but actually is adding another 50% more power/torque up until it hits the battery limit (which shows up as a "plateau" in the power graph). So knowing the "691 hp" motor power is not completely worthless, but knowing both battery/system limit (assuming it is lower) gives the full picture (at least in regards to performance with given battery pack).

 

[wk057]

It might actually. His point was the 691hp "motor power" rating (50% increase in motor power vs P85) is a proxy to saying the motor(s) can output 50% more torque than the P85 at 0 rpm. So a 1000HP "motor power" can possible improve 0-60 even further by having proportionally more torque available at the low end.

The P85D is traction limited to ~30 MPH, just like the P85. Even an infinite amount of available torque isn't going to change that.

There is not a whole lot of evidence the P85 is traction limited. Keep in the P85D is not splitting the power/torque of the 470hp "motor power" of the P85 (as with a traditional AWD car through a differential), but actually is adding another 50% more power/torque up until it hits the battery limit (which shows up as a "plateau" in the power graph). So knowing the "691 hp" motor power is not completely worthless, but knowing both battery/system limit (assuming it is lower) gives the full picture (at least in regards to performance with given battery pack).

Again, I own both vehicles. The P85 is most *definitely* traction limited at the low end. No question about it. When I stomp it in the P85 from a stop the tires struggle to maintain traction at times, vs the P85D where they might struggle for a split second before it properly lays down the right amount or torque. If I turn off traction control on the P85 you can barely keep it on the road under 30 MPH because the tires will spin and spin.

I think you're either confusing the facts or trying to confuse others. You're not going to confuse me, however.

The P85D, with twice the traction available can technically, if it were actually able, lay down roughly twice as much torque as the P85 could at the same point in the 0-60 curve (it's roughly twice because during a launch the front wheels have slightly less traction than the rear wheels do the weight shift). But it can't exceed that sum regardless of if the motors are rated for 50 billion ftlb of torque, regardless of if the power is available or not (which we know it's not). So yes, the peak combined torque of output the P85D can be higher than the P85's peak toque, but that doesn't mean it can utilize it while traction limited (< ~30 MPH).

The P85D can lay down more power to the ground quicker because of the added traction of AWD. I mean, this isn't even me saying this. The CEO of Tesla Motors has specified exactly when the cars are traction limited in conversations previously. My findings concur with those comments within a reasonable margin.

So again, if they P85D were given 1000 HP "motor power" front and rear motors capable of 1000 ftlb of peak torque each... it's not going to make a difference if the tires spin, and definitely not going to make a difference if beyond the traction limited phase of the curve the car can't continue to ramp power to reach high torque at higher RPMs.

 

[jcaspar]

The P85 is very traction limited. Turning off the traction control will show this dramatically, as with out it, the rear tires will light up in a cloud of smoke.

There is not a whole lot of evidence the P85 is traction limited. Keep in the P85D is not splitting the power/torque of the 470hp "motor power" of the P85 (as with a traditional AWD car through a differential), but actually is adding another 50% more power/torque up until it hits the battery limit (which shows up as a "plateau" in the power graph). So knowing the "691 hp" motor power is not completely worthless, but knowing both battery/system limit (assuming it is lower) gives the full picture (at least in regards to performance with given battery pack).

 

[tezzla]

If 691 motor hp is meaningless, how come that P85D has 0.8 sec better 0 to 60 mph acceleration?

You're kidding right? or did you miss the whole 1ft roll-out (oh btw:for the P85D only)

 

[dsm363]

You're kidding right? or did you miss the whole 1ft roll-out (oh btw:for the P85D only)

Well it appears to still be a 0.8 second difference with both cars using the 1 foot rollout. 4.2 seconds for P85 under old non rollout rating and add about 0.3 seconds to the P85D to bring it to 3.4-3.5 seconds.

 

[dsm363]

mod note: multiple posts moved to snippiness
snippiness

some innocent replies were swept up in the move as well

 

[cynix]

mod note: multiple posts moved to snippiness
snippiness

some innocent replies were swept up in the move as well

I'm not sure what the moderation guidelines are, but I would prefer if this thread (and several other related threads) was moderated by an impartial moderator, rather than one of the most active participants in these discussions. Not saying you've done anything wrong, just a general suggestion (like how judges would typically excuse themselves if they're somehow related to a case).

 

[dsm363]

I'm not sure what the moderation guidelines are, but I would prefer if this thread (and several other related threads) was moderated by an impartial moderator, rather than one of the most active participants in these discussions. Not saying you've done anything wrong, just a general suggestion (like how judges would typically excuse themselves if they're somehow related to a case).

All of these moves are discussed behind the scenes among all the moderators. I was the one who moved the posts.

 

[cynix]

All of these moves are discussed behind the scenes among all the moderators. I was the one who moved the posts.

I see, all good then. Thanks for the explanation.

 

[Canuck]

I'm not sure what the moderation guidelines are, but I would prefer if this thread (and several other related threads) was moderated by an impartial moderator, rather than one of the most active participants in these discussions. Not saying you've done anything wrong, just a general suggestion (like how judges would typically excuse themselves if they're somehow related to a case).

The moderators are not paid -- they are volunteering their time. And unless you voluntarily decided to contribute to this forum, you are not paying to be here. Moderators are often selected as level headed people who post in sections of their interest to moderate those sections. That way, the threads in those sections get moderated while the moderator reads what he/she wants to read and usually reads. Why should moderators with no interest in topics have to police other topics? Who cares if some post go to snippiness that perhaps shouldn't go there due to the bias of the moderator? It's a discussion forum. We're not curing cancer here. Plus, the posts I read over at snipiness rightly deserve to be there for their rudeness and lack of content relevant to this thread (except the ones that got swept up in the scoop). I find it a shame that the moderators must defend their moves with behind the scenes discussions when I am certain they have better things to do.

I really appreciate what the mods do here to keep this place civil. So many forums on the internet are not worth visiting given the lack of common courtesy people show to others who have differing views.

 

[stopcrazypp]

The P85D is traction limited to ~30 MPH, just like the P85. Even an infinite amount of available torque isn't going to change that.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...e-Power-Data?p=1129296&viewfull=1#post1129296

I'm looking at the graph posted by sorka for the P85D and the torque ramp ends at about 10-15 mph, while the power ramp ends at the 35-45mph region.

That seems to indicate that there is room for more acceleration improvement in the region via more motor torque while it is not power limited.

http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...-times/page3?p=1148349&viewfull=1#post1148349

Above is the graph for a P85+. Torque ramp actually ends earlier in the 5-10 mph region, power ramp ends later in 40-50mph region.

The torque ramp indicates traction limitations (because the motor itself can output peak torque at 0 rpm), so it appears the P85D actually is more limited in that respect. It'll be interesting to see P85D with traction control off vs a P85 with traction control off; the numbers above seem to indicate the TC is limiting torque at higher mph for the P85D than with the P85.

Again, I own both vehicles. The P85 is most *definitely* traction limited at the low end. No question about it. When I stomp it in the P85 from a stop the tires struggle to maintain traction at times, vs the P85D where they might struggle for a split second before it properly lays down the right amount or torque. If I turn off traction control on the P85 you can barely keep it on the road under 30 MPH because the tires will spin and spin.

I think you're either confusing the facts or trying to confuse others. You're not going to confuse me, however.

The P85D, with twice the traction available can technically, if it were actually able, lay down roughly twice as much torque as the P85 could at the same point in the 0-60 curve (it's roughly twice because during a launch the front wheels have slightly less traction than the rear wheels do the weight shift). But it can't exceed that sum regardless of if the motors are rated for 50 billion ftlb of torque, regardless of if the power is available or not (which we know it's not). So yes, the peak combined torque of output the P85D can be higher than the P85's peak toque, but that doesn't mean it can utilize it while traction limited (< ~30 MPH).

The P85D can lay down more power to the ground quicker because of the added traction of AWD. I mean, this isn't even me saying this. The CEO of Tesla Motors has specified exactly when the cars are traction limited in conversations previously. My findings concur with those comments within a reasonable margin.

So again, if they P85D were given 1000 HP "motor power" front and rear motors capable of 1000 ftlb of peak torque each... it's not going to make a difference if the tires spin, and definitely not going to make a difference if beyond the traction limited phase of the curve the car can't continue to ramp power to reach high torque at higher RPMs.

I stand corrected then. I remember reading the P85 doing extremely well in traction against cars like the M5, but haven't paid as much attention against P85 vs P85D, and the graph doesn't seem to indicate the P85 is significantly worse than the P85D in traction (might indicate the opposite).

Also the 85D (which is about as close to a P85 with power split in the two wheels as practical) and P85 seem to perform the same in 0-60.

 

[Nigel Tufnel]

An innocent reply that got swept up in the move should have an asterisk * next to it.

:wink:

 

[vgrinshpun]

Interestingly, note that the 85D has the same advertised 0-60 time as the P85 used to (4.2 seconds). Yet it has a higher "motor power" number (~518 HP combined vs ~470 "motor power" for the rear unit on the P85) but an actual horsepower number (actually advertised too!) of 417 HP for the 85D... interestingly enough nearly identical to the originally advertised P85 horsepower (416 HP). The software based power ramp on the 85D keeps it from besting the P85 (presumably because Tesla knows if their lower cost model, which was originally advertised as 25% slower, now beats the P85 too badly after many people traded P85s towards P85Ds they're going to piss off a lot more people) even though for sure the AWD traction could easily shave a few more tenths off of that 0-60. So another nail in that coffin as well.

I would like to see data showing that "software based power ramp on 85D keeps it from besting the P85". What is this statement based on? Why don't you show the data that prove this?

What I see is that 85D has 10% higher motor power, and, linked to this motor rating, 10% higher maximum torque than P85. It also is a heavier vehicle - weighing 219 lbs more (4849 lbs vs 4630lbs for P85). The 10% higher torque allows it, in spite of more weight, accelerate 0 to 60 within the same time. Again, this is totally consistent with the point I made in my post - that the *motor horsepower*, not the maximum "system" horsepower defines the 0 to 60 acceleration time which is marketed by Tesla.

More so, for 0-60 times, the bulk of the improvement with the P85D is increased (nearly doubled) traction due to AWD.

Well, if you have data - show it.

What I see is that according to Consumer Reports, P85D exceeds 1G within 1/3 of the second after launch, which is roughly just one quarter of time it needs to reach 30mph (1.3sec). Beyond this 1/3 second point, the car is limited by torque, not traction.

The P85D can ramp up power output faster while maintaining traction than the P85 is able to because of AWD. It doesn't even reach the same max power output of the P85 until somewhere near 30 MPH. If the P85 had the same traction as the P85D it would be tied with it until about 30 MPH where the P85D would then slowly creep away from the P85D due to the extra ~80 or so actual horsepower it's able to lay down at this point, just like it does from a 35 MPH rolling start.

I own both cars. I have a P85D and a P85 side by side in my garage. This is real data, not just made up to serve an agenda.

The P85D can ramp power faster than P85 because it has roughly 50% more torque. The additional torque and commensurate additional traction in P85D as compared to P85 comes from the front motor. The rear motors in both cars and traction available from the rear in both cars are approximately the same, and based on Consumer Reports data P85D puts down maximum available torque starting at 1/3 of a second into the launch.

The P85D is traction limited to ~30 MPH, just like the P85. Even an infinite amount of available torque isn't going to change that.

Looks like you have data to prove this - why don't you show them. Your statement sure does not seem to be consistent with the Consumer Reports data which I've shown above.

 

[Andyw2100]

What I see is that according to Consumer Reports, P85D exceeds 1G within 1/3 of the second after launch, which is roughly just one quarter of time it needs to reach 30mph (1.3sec). Beyond this 1/3 second point, the car is limited by torque, not traction.

I have no idea what the graph you included shows, or what the Consumer Reports test means, but I do know that Elon Musk, who I assume you would agree knows a thing or two about the P85D, has said on numerous occasions that the car is traction limited to about 30 MPH. I also assume you do not believe the car is doing 0-30 in 1/3 of a second. So I think there is some sort of a disconnect here.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I have no idea what the graph you included shows, or what the Consumer Reports test means, but I do know that Elon Musk, who I assume you would agree knows a thing or two about the P85D, has said on numerous occasions that the car is traction limited to about 30 MPH. I also assume you do not believe the car is doing 0-30 in 1/3 of a second. So I think there is some sort of a disconnect here.

I would like to see a complete quote. Why don't you link/provide the complete quote?

The car did 0 to 30 in 1.3sec during CR testing. Not sure where did you get 1/3 of a second.

 

[Andyw2100]

I would like to see a complete quote. Why don't you link/provide the complete quote?

The car did 0 to 30 in 1.3sec during CR testing. Not sure where did you get 1/3 of a second.

I didn't get 1/3 of a second. I'm not sure how you would have thought that I did. I'll try to explain what I was saying another way, spelling it out more completely.

The only way your statement that the car is traction limited after 1/3 of a second would be consistent with Musk's statement that the car is traction limited to 30 MPH would be if the car reached 30 MPH in 1/3 of a second, which it clearly does not. In other words my point was that you are wrong. Unless, of course, you are saying that Musk is wrong about the car being traction limited to 30 MPH.

As for when he said this, he has said it many times. He said it during the Ludicrous announcement. Here's a link to the audio:

Elon Musk announces Ludicrous Mode for Model S (7.17.15) AUDIO - YouTube

Start at about 19:30

Also here:

Tesla July 17th announcement liveblog: Lusicrous mode, $70K single engine S70, 90kWh top battery | Electrek

"11:30 1300A-1500A Ludicrous mode is from 30mph to 60mph. (0-30 is tire traction limited)"


And here:

http://www.streetinsider.com/Management+Comments/UPDATE%3A+Tesla+%28TSLA%29+CEO+Musk+Announces+Upgraded+90-kWh+Battery+Pack,+New+Ludicrous+Mode/10732319.html


Ludicrous mode is an extension of Insane mode past 30 MPH. He commented, "What it enables is for the car to not be pack-power limited beyond 30 miles per hour. Up to 30 mph, the car is limited by traction. Beyond that the limitation on acceleration is the current that can be safely extracted from the battery pack."