[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"

[wk057]

I would like to see a complete quote. Why don't you link/provide the complete quote?

The car did 0 to 30 in 1.3sec during CR testing. Not sure where did you get 1/3 of a second.

Why I bothered digging this up for you is beyond me.

Tesla Motors Ludicrous Mode Press Conference (Audio) 2015-07-17 - YouTube (@19:42)

"Up to about 30 MPH the car is essentially traction limited. You would have to just put really big wheels on or something to not be traction limited up to roughly 30 MPH." -Elon Musk, CEO Tesla Motors

- - - Updated - - -

And Andy beat me to it.

- - - Updated - - -

Elaborating, I'm not going to dedicate any substantial amounts of time to sanitize the performance logger data that I have from multiple vehicles, among other things, just to post it here only to have multiple people who have no idea how to interpret the data just try to make additional invalid points in defense of Tesla on this horsepower issue. I've privately shared data that I have with people who are actually making some use out of it, and that's as far as it's going. I'm no longer wasting any appreciable amount of time publicly on this issue.

Also keep in mind that virtually none of the torque curves we've seen for the P85D are actual torque curves. They're calculated based on assumptions about various variables.

The blanket statement that "more motor horsepower means faster 0-60 times" is just ridiculous. If people haven't learned anything at all from this entire thread and topic it's that horsepower does not directly relate to 0-60 times.

 

[stopcrazypp]

Why I bothered digging this up for you is beyond me.

Tesla Motors Ludicrous Mode Press Conference (Audio) 2015-07-17 - YouTube (@19:42)

"Up to about 30 MPH the car is essentially traction limited. You would have to just put really big wheels on or something to not be traction limited up to roughly 30 MPH." -Elon Musk, CEO Tesla Motors

- - - Updated - - -

And Andy beat me to it.

- - - Updated - - -

Elaborating, I'm not going to dedicate any substantial amounts of time to sanitize the performance logger data that I have from multiple vehicles, among other things, just to post it here only to have multiple people who have no idea how to interpret the data just try to make additional invalid points in defense of Tesla on this horsepower issue. I've privately shared data that I have with people who are actually making some use out of it, and that's as far as it's going. I'm no longer wasting any appreciable amount of time publicly on this issue.

Also keep in mind that virtually none of the torque curves we've seen for the P85D are actual torque curves. They're calculated based on assumptions about various variables.

The wheel torque should be a direct relation to the motor torque based on the gear ratio. The P85D is more complicated than the P85 because of the through the road synchronization and different front and rear gear ratios, so the absolute numbers are likely not exactly correct, but the relative comparison (where the peak is) should be correct.

If you have an actual wheel or motor torque graph that shows the peak torque not being reached until 30mph, then that would disprove my point (it'll squeeze the improvement area much smaller to between 30-45mph, although it won't be nonexistent) and I am perfectly happy to accept that as an counter argument.

Elon's point about "about 30mph" is related, but the "about" goes give a room for peak torque to play a role before the power peak that occurs at ~45mph.

In real world terms, the TC light may be on until you observe the speedo hits ~30mph, but if you graph directly the torque vs mph as measured with a precision instrument it might be a lot different (which I assume the VBox is going to be a lot more accurate than being based on the speedo).

The blanket statement that "more motor horsepower means faster 0-60 times" is just ridiculous. If people haven't learned anything at all from this entire thread and topic it's that horsepower does not directly relate to 0-60 times.

I think vgrinshpun is only applying that to the Tesla models in which the motors have largely the same torque curve shape and there is a roughly a direct relation between "motor horsepower" and peak torque (obviously the concept can't be applied when torque curve is drastically different).

In other words, for P85 to P85D, he is using the 470hp motor power -> 691hp motor power (1.47x) as a proxy for the 443 lb-ft -> 687 lb-ft (1.55x) peak torque.

And peak torque does seem to be a far better indicator of 0-60 than the ~500hp system horsepower (which this thread already indicated is a very poor indicator of 0-60).

 

[qwertzy]

HP Numbers have been removed from the order page.

 

[wk057]

HP Numbers have been removed from the order page.

Think this was already noted, but still interesting. Why remove it if you've got nothing to hide...

 

[vgrinshpun]

Think this was already noted, but still interesting. Why remove it if you've got nothing to hide...

May be because people are complaining that the power information can't be deciphered by the common folk.

So they left acceleration information, which directly and uniquely defines performance of the car on the ordering page, while having more detailed information, including the power information, which is now ominously claimed to be "removed", under the Specifications, where it belongs. The Specification information is actually on the first page - Model S page (under the specifications). In order to get to the ordering page you need to go to the Model S page and then click on the order button, which is located on the top of the page, and then repeated right after the specification information

Nothing they can reasonably do will ever satisfy conspiracy theorists. The beauty of it is that belief formed independently from reality does not ever need to be adjusted, no matter what the circumstances turn out to be...

 

[cynix]

Nothing they can reasonably do will ever satisfy conspiracy theorists. The beauty of it is that belief formed independently from reality does not ever need to be adjusted, no matter what the circumstances turn out to be...

I'm sure everyone would be satisfied if they just listed 555 hp (or whatever the maximum system power is).

 

[ecarfan]

Depends on how you define "maximum system power". Different people would define that differently.
One might think that a standardized dyno test for all cars from all manufacturers, measuring the actual power delivered to the wheels across the RPM band for each gear, would be a reasonable way to present the data. But the average car buyer would be overwhelmed by that much data. They want a single number because that is what they are used to. And of course the ICE manufacturers would fight that idea because it would show the large power train losses present compared to EVs.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I'm sure everyone would be satisfied if they just listed 555 hp (or whatever the maximum system power is).

Yes some people would, even though this number has very little effect on the improvement in 0 to 60 acceleration - the main punch line Tesla use to upsell to P85D.

 

[Laserbrain]

May be because people are complaining that the power information can't be deciphered by the common folk.

So now it is the common people's inability to process information?

Excuse me, but Tesla tried to scam the people by giving false hp as information.

And do not try to argue with some standards because you know as good as the people know that then they should have used the same standards for the 70D and 90D.

Nothing they can reasonably do will ever satisfy conspiracy theorists. The beauty of it is that belief formed independently from reality does not ever need to be adjusted, no matter what the circumstances turn out to be...

And now all the people who complain about Tesla's unethical behaviour with the horsepower and rollout scam are conspiracy theorists?

No comment.

 

[Andyw2100]

May be because people are complaining that the power information can't be deciphered by the common folk.

So they left acceleration information, which directly and uniquely defines performance of the car on the ordering page, while having more detailed information, including the power information, which is now ominously claimed to be "removed", under the Specifications, where it belongs. The Specification information is actually on the first page - Model S page (under the specifications). In order to get to the ordering page you need to go to the Model S page and then click on the order button, which is located on the top of the page, and then repeated right after the specification information

Nothing they can reasonably do will ever satisfy conspiracy theorists. The beauty of it is that belief formed independently from reality does not ever need to be adjusted, no matter what the circumstances turn out to be...

I see you're still participating in this thread, but I don't see any comment following up on the whole "traction limit to 30 MPH issue."

Beyond this 1/3 second point, the car is limited by torque, not traction.

...but I do know that Elon Musk, who I assume you would agree knows a thing or two about the P85D, has said on numerous occasions that the car is traction limited to about 30 MPH.

I would like to see a complete quote. Why don't you link/provide the complete quote?

IHere's a link to the audio:

Elon Musk announces Ludicrous Mode for Model S (7.17.15) AUDIO - YouTube

Start at about 19:30

And here:

http://www.streetinsider.com/Management+Comments/UPDATE%3A+Tesla+%28TSLA%29+CEO+Musk+Announces+Upgraded+90-kWh+Battery+Pack,+New+Ludicrous+Mode/10732319.html


Ludicrous mode is an extension of Insane mode past 30 MPH. He commented, "What it enables is for the car to not be pack-power limited beyond 30 miles per hour. Up to 30 mph, the car is limited by traction. Beyond that the limitation on acceleration is the current that can be safely extracted from the battery pack."

You asked for proof that Musk said the car was traction limited to 30 MPH, and I provided it. So do you now admit that you were just flat out wrong in stating that the car was only traction limited for the first 1/3 second or are you maintaining that you are correct and that Elon Musk is wrong?

(As an aside, I have a lot more respect for people who, when proven wrong, admit it on their own, without having to be called out on it. )

 

[cynix]

Depends on how you define "maximum system power". Different people would define that differently.

No matter how you define it, it cannot be greater than the output of the battery.

 

[Laserbrain]

I'm sure everyone would be satisfied if they just listed 555 hp (or whatever the maximum system power is).

555 hp is the power the battery can deliver. The resulting combined motor power (which BTW Tesla shows for the 70D and 90D) is even lower.

It is really unaccaptable that even today, a buyer of a P85D or P90D does not know how many horsepower his car has.

Tesla leaves us at guessing - probably 500-520 hp for the P85D and probably 580-600 hp for the P90DL. Who knows?

It is pathetic, that they expect you to pay a six digit price but do not tell you how much horsepower your future car has.

 

[dsm363]

So now it is the common people's inability to process information?

Excuse me, but Tesla tried to scam the people by giving false hp as information.

And do not try to argue with some standards because you know as good as the people know that then they should have used the same standards for the 70D and 90D.



And now all the people who complain about Tesla's unethical behaviour with the horsepower and rollout scam are conspiracy theorists?

No comment.

There is no 'scam'. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.

 

[Laserbrain]

There is no 'scam'. Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.

I think we should leave this to a judge to decide.

 

[wk057]

Repeating it over and over doesn't make it true.

The same could be said about the other side of this argument...

 

[MuppetOwl]

We know the P85 has a 1200A inverter.
And the P85 did make 310kW (Real power not fake motor power Tesla did add at the end) So that is the power after losses i think.

P85D is 1300A limited by the battery so the peak kW/hp cant be much higher since the P85D only has 100A more to use. If the P85D has the same loss from the inverter to engine, I think the P85D has max 335 kw peak power or 450hp using the same rating as P85, 85D, 70D ++

Tesla has rated the 85D to 417 hp. I have tried to drag race a 85D from about 45 mph and the difference is really small from that speed and no difference from 70 mph so i think this is not far from the truth.

So the only reason the P85D is much faster from a standstill is a more aggressive torque ramp up.


Tesla 85/P85 specs

 

[dsm363]

The same could be said about the other side of this argument...

I'm not the one using a loaded term like scam that implies intent.

 

[vgrinshpun]

I see you're still participating in this thread, but I don't see any comment following up on the whole "traction limit to 30 MPH issue."











You asked for proof that Musk said the car was traction limited to 30 MPH, and I provided it. So do you now admit that you were just flat out wrong in stating that the car was only traction limited for the first 1/3 second or are you maintaining that you are correct and that Elon Musk is wrong?

(As an aside, I have a lot more respect for people who, when proven wrong, admit it on their own, without having to be called out on it. )

Do not jump the gun (again). I was not proven wrong. Response is coming - I just did not have time to see *all* the references.

In summary, the P85D performance is limited by traction only in the first 1/3 of a second, then it is torque limited up to about 30+ mph. It is limited by hp after that.

Musk is not wrong.

I will be participating in this thread.

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So now it is the common people's inability to process information?

Excuse me, but Tesla tried to scam the people by giving false hp as information.

And do not try to argue with some standards because you know as good as the people know that then they should have used the same standards for the 70D and 90D.



And now all the people who complain about Tesla's unethical behaviour with the horsepower and rollout scam are conspiracy theorists?

No comment.

The power ratings as defined by this "some standard" is required by the government of your country to be put on the Certificate of Conformity for each EV sold in your country. There is no place for the horsepower that you want to see on said CoC, however.

 

[wk057]

So, I was having a conversation elsewhere, and it came up that an EV tax exemption was modified and removed in Italy (and elsewhere I believe). EV owners will no longer be exempt from a yearly vehicle tax, and that is based on horsepower not vehicle value. Under this tax the P85D is treated as 700 HP and charged something like $7.2K USD per year equivalent.

Personally I think the actual power the car produces is a more valid number for such a tax, yet Tesla marked them as 700 HP (metric). Tesla should be pretty happy I'm not one of those affected owners. Seems like it would make a lot more sense for them to use the actual horsepower number overall. They're not only misleading their customers, now they're causing them additional financial burden in some locations.

 

[vgrinshpun]

The same could be said about the other side of this argument...

Well, except that you claimed that it is always the other side that starts the repetition cycle...