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[updated with *] P85D 691HP should have an asterisk * next to it.. "Up to 691HP"
- Thread starter krisg81
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
I think adding the note about rollout was the right thing to do and assume they will roll that note out to the international sites shortly. It doesn't mean anything to me, since I was assuming they including rollout from the outset, but it eliminates ambiguity and provides a transparent, repeatable number. Kudos to Tesla for doing this.
That disclaimer makes no sense to the other markets. Where the "first foot roll out" or indeed "Motor Trend" are unheard of
For the EU they really should adjust the figure, otherwise it might as well say "* we use a US convention for measuring 0-60, where the car does not start from zero mph."
Hi Niclas... do you mean satisfied like "Now we close the case ?"
There is not a single answer so let me elaborate. I am very happy that Tesla has stopped the bleeding meaning they are not misleading the US customers (so they reduce their liability). Maybe they never mislead the US customers but now at least in the US it is clearly stated.
For Europe they have two options as i see it.
1. Tesla keep the "1-foot rollout nonsense" out of the European marketing and increase the performance times with 0,3 s. So 0-100 km/t would be 3,6 s.
2. Alternatively they have to educate the Europeans about "1-foot rollout" and also explain that the German car industry is not relevant for performance bencmarking.
Lets see what happens there.
Personally I will be satisfied when the car that I purchased in January 2015 delivers the advertised 700 hk and performs in the 3,3 s 0-100 km/h diciplin. I guess I speak for 60+ P85D owners that co-signed the 3rd letter. Also here lets see what happens at least there seems to be some movements now.
All the best
Torben_E
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I hope you get what you want but think it's pretty clear you won't get the 700 hp you are looking at and since they'd admitted they used a 1 foot rollout you certainly won't get the 0-100kmh times you are looking for.
I'm one of the biggest Tesla fanboys you will ever come across, but it sure gets annoying when they add and take away "little" things on their website (and their cars), and think it doesn't (or didn't) have any effect on their paying customers. These little footnotes make everything okay, I guess...
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
This seems to be a similar reaction like with the 691hp number (where they removed it). I see people expecting this to have "resolved" the issue, but judging by how this thread didn't end with the removal of the 691hp number, I'm guessing the people complaining won't be satisfied with that notice.
JER
Member
Not sure how I feel about this, actually. Specifying rollout does seem to cover Tesla against lawsuits from future PxxD sales. However, it does nothing for customers who bought under expectations from Tesla's previous communications.
I'm also left with a rather uncomfortable suspicion: Are Tesla retroactively adopting rollout as a dodge? It could just be a coincidence that rollout offsets the discrepancy between actual and advertised performance.
Also, the P90D (with Ludicrous) is meeting the original advertised 0-60 time of the P85D without rollout, and also much closer to meeting the original advertised power. This seems rather unlikely to be coincidence.
As others have pointed out, the most obvious interpretation is that:
- Ludicrous Mode is derived from the planned (but never delivered) "high speed" performance upgrade ("an over-the-air firmware upgrade to the power electronics") promised in (now redacted) footnotes.
- Much like the Autopilot features, the announced performance metrics of P85D were somewhat aspirational; this update would've delivered them, had it been achievable.
- It was impossible to validate without hardware changes, due to the disclosed limitations of the original contactor and fuse.
Since then we've seen a series of communication decisions that, in this context, seem downright sleazy:
- Disputed claims and promises removed from the website without explanation.
- Ludicrous Mode introduced; explained as solely the product of drivetrain longevity research. Offered as high price, likely very high margin option.
- Rollout now footnoted for acceleration of PxxD models only, difference from other models still exaggerated.
It also makes an even bigger mess of Model S' top-end market segmentation. The 85D (with its formidable April upgrade) was already uncomfortably close to the real 0-60 acceleration of the P85D. With the introduction of Ludicrous, base PxxD is being cannibalised from below and above.
It's a mess.
Good to get a clear answer from Tesla regarding the performance numbers for the P85D and P90D. Although I do not understand why they use a reference to a car magazine, but ok ...
Will I be satisfied? Well I think it is going to be easier to actually get Tesla to deliver the performance we agreed on legally when they agreed to sell me the car or 10% of the purchase price back, since they have just added an amendment to our existing agreement, and I intent to follow up on that.
That disclaimer makes no sense to the other markets. Where the "first foot roll out" or indeed "Motor Trend" are unheard of
For the EU they really should adjust the figure, otherwise it might as well say "* we use a US convention for measuring 0-60, where the car does not start from zero mph."
+1
I think they just made a whole lot easier for the lawyers. The best thing for Tesla to do at this point is to make it right a.s.a.p.
There is no problem concerning cars that are ordered now and forward on the US site.
I think you are right, however in this case, Tesla is very clear in their correction, so they only people having any issue now is the current owners of the P85D and P90D. And as I said above, I think Tesla just made their case very very strong.
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Agree 100%
The simple answer may just be, that Tesla know that they have done something wrong and is now working to limit the damage. By adding this disclaimer they can very easy say that it involves xx cars and it will cost yy$ to rectify
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stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
That is exactly why I see Tesla playing the silent game esp. with the whole "motor power" numbers. Any changes they make on the website to clarify is immediately used against them, despite people here saying they won't do that before the changes are made.
On the whole 0-60 with rollout thing, I'm pretty certain in the US there won't be any legal consequences. I know for certain GM uses it and they never add an asterisk. In the EU, I haven't really looked at GM's 0-100kph numbers so can't really say there.
I think you are right, but it is sad that Tesla will not disclose the right information because they are afraid it will be used against them (if that is the case). Of course buyers will use it against them, they have mislead them and not upheld their part of the agreement.
If they are doing a rollout, then they can't really claim 0-60 then can they?
Wouldn't it be more like 5-60 if you start the clock a foot after the car has begun accelerating??
Tesla never specified with or without rollout until now. In the US it's common to specify 0-60 with 1 ft rollout so the other Tesla Model S variants were being advertised without the 1 ft rollout (i.e S85 really does 0-60 in 5.1 seconds with 1 ft rollout, not 5.4 seconds).
All they have to do is lower the 0-60 times of all the other Model S's to account for the 1 ft rollout and they're now advertising all Model S variants with 1 ft rollout and all the rest are now advertised with a faster time 0-60 time. Win Win for Tesla.
Since the P85D was already advertised according typical US standards, nobody here in the US has a 0-60 spec deficiency claim. I always assumed it was with the 1 ft rollout. Had I bought another Model S other than the P85D I'd only be surprised on the upside as Tesla had understated the 0-60 times on all but the P85D.
Now the folks in regions where the 1 ft rollout is *not* typical might have a legitimate claim but they still need to reconcile that Tesla wasn't specifying different times in the US vs Europe for 0-60. i.e. 0-60 vs 0-62 was still consistent with the 1 ft rollout. So in my opinion, the case for 0-60 spec deficiencies is still weak.
All they have to do is lower the 0-60 times of all the other Model S's to account for the 1 ft rollout and they're now advertising all Model S variants with 1 ft rollout and all the rest are now advertised with a faster time 0-60 time. Win Win for Tesla.
Since the P85D was already advertised according typical US standards, nobody here in the US has a 0-60 spec deficiency claim. I always assumed it was with the 1 ft rollout. Had I bought another Model S other than the P85D I'd only be surprised on the upside as Tesla had understated the 0-60 times on all but the P85D.
Now the folks in regions where the 1 ft rollout is *not* typical might have a legitimate claim but they still need to reconcile that Tesla wasn't specifying different times in the US vs Europe for 0-60. i.e. 0-60 vs 0-62 was still consistent with the 1 ft rollout. So in my opinion, the case for 0-60 spec deficiencies is still weak.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
They aren't doing a rollout. They are subtracting the time it takes to move 1-foot from a test done at at a standstill, as is customary for drag racing in the USA (that distance is called "1-foot rollout"). This is to simulate how staging beams work at a drag strip when calculating the 1/4 mile time.If they are doing a rollout, then they can't really claim 0-60 then can they?
Wouldn't it be more like 5-60 if you start the clock a foot after the car has begun accelerating??
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/the-importance-of-rollout
5-60 mph "rolling start" or "street start" is an entirely different measure (where you have the car rolling along at 5mph and then you measure when you floor the accelerator).
http://www.caranddriver.com/features/how-does-c-d-test-cars-acceleration-and-braking-page-2
Example from Car and Driver for P85D:
0-60 mph (with 1 foot rollout subtracted): 3.3 seconds
5-60 mph is considerably longer: 4.1 seconds
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2015-tesla-model-s-p85d-long-term-intro-review
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JER
Member
I’ve said this before, but it bears repeating here: The launch of Ludicrous Mode as a high cost, high margin option also guarantees that someone will be wronged, no matter what Tesla do next.
Continue the hide evidence, obfuscate and ignore policy and existing P85D owners do not get what they were promised – unless they pay $5k plus labour on top of what they paid already, and assuming they even own the car. (Presumably, you get to sit and suck lemons if you’re leasing.)
Make right on promises to existing P85D owners and you have another dilemma: There are now P90D owners who just paid $10k for the thing you’re now giving away. Legally they would have no recourse, but I bet most of them would never buy a Tesla again if you left things there. Do you refund them?
What about orders in progress? New orders?
The sensible thing to do would’ve been to introduce Ludicrous as standard on all new PxxD models and adjust the base price (and be less greedy with margins.) Bit late for that now, though.
Yeah, this whole thing has been bungled beyond belief.
Continue the hide evidence, obfuscate and ignore policy and existing P85D owners do not get what they were promised – unless they pay $5k plus labour on top of what they paid already, and assuming they even own the car. (Presumably, you get to sit and suck lemons if you’re leasing.)
Make right on promises to existing P85D owners and you have another dilemma: There are now P90D owners who just paid $10k for the thing you’re now giving away. Legally they would have no recourse, but I bet most of them would never buy a Tesla again if you left things there. Do you refund them?
What about orders in progress? New orders?
The sensible thing to do would’ve been to introduce Ludicrous as standard on all new PxxD models and adjust the base price (and be less greedy with margins.) Bit late for that now, though.
Yeah, this whole thing has been bungled beyond belief.
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