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Used 2013 Model S P85 Worth the Risk?
- Thread starter Erik Pritchard
- Start date
AS9.9.
Member
I have no experience in this area, but the risk will always strongly be based on what you are paying. How much does the Model S cost? It may be worth a shot trying to contact your local service center and see if they can give you any documents that pertain to repairs the car may have had.
I honestly don't know how anyone gets someone to buy their used early Model S. They seem like nothing but a huge risk with the battery, drive unit, and suspension issues, not to mention they just weren't very nice cars to begin with in terms of giving a low level of luxury with high road noise, poor quality materials, terrible seat comfort, etc.
Of course, I have never owned one, but from what I have read on forums from owners, you have to have a certain amount of self loathing to buy one.
Of course, I have never owned one, but from what I have read on forums from owners, you have to have a certain amount of self loathing to buy one.
2013s are probably the lowest priced Model S in the market ~$20k range. Interest @ this price point suggest DIY capable or have $20k in repair reserve after purchase.
Here is how to do basic check on LDU revision/leak + Battery revision and water ingress signs if you are concerned. Requires a little bit of disassembly
If car used in salted road regions. Definitely check battery fuse cover listed in the link
This can diminish the risk but battery is probably aged regardless original or reman unless it got replaced by a new one at some point. Seems like most Reman LDUs are time bombs for leaks these days but there are pioneering efforts for leak damage mitigation mod here if good DIYer
Tesla LDU - Preventive Mods (google.com)
If DIY, know that even the most advanced DIYers are challenged on this car without a lift. Some part sourcing also a challenge.
Howards Model S
Feel free to reach out to me at [email protected] with any questions. I'm a retired techie that likes to fix things including cars and fix electronic and mechanical things for hobby.
sites.google.com
Also read 2x sales that had battery failure immediately after completing ownership transfer or reset. Don't know why and maybe coincidental. Perhaps complete these before completing financial transaction. Stories in this FB group
Tesla BMS_u029 | Facebook
Hope this helps.
I honestly don't know how anyone gets someone to buy their used early Model S. They seem like nothing but a huge risk with the battery, drive unit, and suspension issues, not to mention they just weren't very nice cars to begin with in terms of giving a low level of luxury with high road noise, poor quality materials, terrible seat comfort, etc.
Of course, I have never owned one, but from what I have read on forums from owners, you have to have a certain amount of self loathing to buy one.
I can share some insight on who some of the buyers are.
I'm seeing lots of confident 100k+ mile German car DIYers are interested at ~$20k price range. This crowd don't spend $100k on cars but buys them for < 15-20% of original price and DIY maintenance fairly cheaply. This is also the group that keeps German cars on the road > 100k miles after first 2 owners (first owner 4yr lease, 2nd owner certified used to 100k miles then sell due to high none DIY repair costs) Model S's good looks along with good EV performance and driving dynamics attracts these DIYers that likes driving 10 year old BMWs+Audis (also good looks + great driving dynamics haha) for cheap. I spent some time hanging out with this group for 10 years on my 2 prior DIY maintained turbocharged Volvos and made a DIY website for those cars haha. It isn't so much self loathing... rather, repairing something expensive @ fairly low cost is quite satisfying for DIYers
At $20k and likely $15k soon, older Model S interest from this group will be high.B..U..T.... Model S adds a whole layer of challenge to even this fairly advanced DIY group. Starting with lifting challenges to deal with drive unit and battery. Large capacity lithium ion battery is crazy expensive (to this group) regardless of sourcing path (repair, salvage, reman, new) This group is unfamiliar with these new challenges and steps into Tesla land unknowingly. A recent fairly advanced youtuber DIYer's attempt (got the Model S for cheap with dead battery, discovered leaking LDU, couldn't stomach the DIY repair cost + complexity) is fairly typical.
This group is actually my main motivation to put together the LDU rebuild and Model S DIY info site. They need key DIY how-tos and part sourcings. In this process, what I have realized is there is all kinds of barriers to increase Tesla independent repair shops. So we are stuck with expensive and by the HQ book SCs or cross country car shipping for repairs. This will be the primary reason driving the rapid depreciation of these cars after drive train warranty. Then of course, more German car DIYers interested to step into Tesla land. Viscous cycle haha.
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I can share some insight on who some of the buyers are.
I'm seeing lots of confident 100k+ mile German car DIYers are interested at ~$20k price range. This crowd don't spend $100k on cars but buys them for < 15-20% of original price and DIY maintenance fairly cheaply. This is also the group that keeps German cars on the road > 100k miles after first 2 owners (first owner 4yr lease, 2nd owner certified used to 100k miles then sell due to high none DIY repair costs) Model S's good looks along with good EV performance and driving dynamics attracts these DIYers that likes driving 10 year old BMWs+Audis (also good looks + great driving dynamics haha) for cheap. I spent some time hanging out with this group for 10 years on my 2 prior DIY maintained turbocharged Volvos and made a DIY website for those cars haha. It isn't so much self loathing... rather, repairing something expensive @ fairly low cost is quite satisfying for DIYers
B..U..T.... Model S adds a whole layer of challenge to even this fairly advanced DIY group. Starting with lifting challenges to deal with drive unit and battery. Large capacity lithium ion battery is crazy expensive (to this group) regardless of sourcing path (repair, salvage, reman, new) This group is unfamiliar with these new challenges and steps into Tesla land unknowingly. A recent fairly advanced youtuber DIYer's attempt (got the Model S for cheap with dead battery, discovered leaking LDU, couldn't stomach the DIY repair cost + complexity) is fairly typical.
This group is actually my main motivation to put together the LDU rebuild and Model S DIY info site. They need key DIY how-tos and part sourcings. In this process, what I have realized is there is all kinds of barriers to increase independent repair shops. This will be the primary reason driving the rapid depreciation of these cars after drive train warranty. Then of course, more German car DIYers step into Tesla land. Viscous cycle haha.
That does support what I was saying. I mean if the car had the cache of a Lamborghini or you could make a lot of money like Rich Rebuilds from rebuilding one of these basket cases, I could see taking them on. Otherwise, they need to be put in the crusher when they get to the point that you have to spend $20K to buy it and $20K to fix it. For $40K, you can buy a lot of much cooler cars that are easier to maintain.
If repair cost can be shifted towards $5k, then it matches the historical > 100k mi DIY German car economics. But there are few of major barriers. I think battery cost barrier is unfortunately insurmountable unless we believe in the latest bleeding edge battery technology that are usually ways out with low maturity and unknown results.
Lithium Ion Battery Cost
This is the biggest barrier to lower repair cost. Large capacity is fundamentally expensive even with Tesla's vertical integration cost reduction. And no matter what anyone does, cell chemistry and internal structure is going to degrade with time and use. LiOn cell looks like a nice peaceful solid object but really more like a chemistry lab beaker inside. A reliable ICE technology like Toyota+Honda will last 20+ years. Euros ICE can last that long with DIY time investment. Very hard to see large lithium pack on an EV use scenario getting there. Hybrids can get there with much gentler battery demand.
Beyond this there are other items such as broad diag tools and parts availability. But these are solvable as most are artificial restrictions that can be overcome. Battery cost barrier is fundamental physics + chemistry. Tesla may have removed 25-30% cost with large scale vertical integration (battery AND car manufacturer) But still a huge cost for say ~10 years of usability.
High mileage drivers are still the biggest benefactors on EVs. Usage pattern runs ahead of the age based degradation mechanism. Benefits the most out of the amortized warranty insurance pool amongst all users. Low mileage drives gets the shortest end of the stick.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
The main question to ask is: Are you willing to nearly double your investment in this car, potentially within days/months of acquisition, if the battery fails?
Hybrids application actually isn't a much gentler battery demand. A hybrid battery can easily go through multiple charge-discharge cycles over a given drive cycle. So when you look at the number of say 80-20% discharge cycles over lifetime, the pack in a hybrid vehicle actually can show a more severe overall duty cycle profile. Typically the packs, to the level of basic cell chemistry, is different for the battery pack in a hybrid vehicle versus one for a full-on BEV.
Interesting and good point. Toyota is deploying both NiMH and LiOn in various hybrids. Non plug-in cheapest hybrids are also getting LiOn. Presumably couple kWh pack. Perhaps these are different LiOn chemistry than pure EVs. They don't need the highest energy density (not much weight from small pack) but must aim at longevity if want to retain their current ~15+? year (13 years in the books now on gen3 hybrids) 200k+ mile longevity benchmark.
Any idea on how they could achieve this level of longevity with this much cycling with NiMh and LiOn? I guess Toyota's battery partner is Panasonic : Battery tech enabler for Toyota Hybrids and Tesla. And perhaps the cycling window is far smaller than 80-20%? Or maybe small battery BMS can be less conservative packing ~2 order of magnitude less energy?
Anyway, how does it seemingly get better longevity if the cycling is more aggressive?
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brainhouston
Active Member
No way... even a dead Tesla is worth a lot as parts.
I'm glad there're many recyclers that do that.
Plus, for the right price there's always a buyer willing to get it n fix it or part it out.
Tesla made a ton of improvements to their cars over the years. I would recommend staying away from a model S older than 2016. For reliability I think a used model 3 is a lot better deal (long term) than a model S. I myself decided I won’t be buying any model S that is older than 2021 in the future.
People talk of Lithium Ion batteries as if they are all created equal. There actually are several different categories of cell chemistry formulations that all fall under the general description as being lithium ion. Here's a link to page on the Battery University site that describes some of the different major categories, such as NMC or LFP which Tesla has/does use for different models. Even within the general category of LFP, there are now a variant known as LMFP which are being explored more.
BU-205: Types of Lithium-ion
Become familiar with the many different types of lithium-ion batteries: Lithium Cobalt Oxide, Lithium Manganese Oxide, Lithium Iron Phosphate and more.
batteryuniversity.com
Each of the formulations have different characteristics, including strengths/weaknesses for cycle life, maximum C-rate (rate at which power can put transferred in/out of the cell), or energy density on either a kWh per weight or kWh per volume basis.
This all gets to the cell chemistry level. Totally separate is the physically howthe battery is packaged/formed, whether a cylindrical cell (such as 2170 or 4680), vs. prismatic (a rectangular box shape), versus pouch (think of it being a plastic bag versus a solid shell). Each has different packaging considerations.
So as I've started to learn more and more from some I know who actually design batteries for such applications, it's actually a very complex process to determine how to best manage all the trade-offs.
ucmndd
Well-Known Member
Interesting analysis. IMO the last of the prior-gen Ravens (2019-2020) are probably the most well sorted and reliable as of now.
The 2021 redesign reset the clock in many respects.
Most cars are parted out for the good stuff before being put into the crusher and then the output is recycled too, so chill.
If you're considering a 2013 which might still have its original battery, make sure to read this thread:
teslamotorsclub.com
Vendor - Preventative Maintenance regarding Battery Failures in early Model S vehicles (2012-2014)
There are some definite trends with early battery packs failing in earlier Model S vehicles... from day 1 builds up to about Q4'2014 and some even Q1'2015... and any cars that have had Tesla-refurbished packs installed. The issues are all pretty much the same thing in one form or another...
teslamotorsclub.com
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