Looking at buying a used 2013 Model S P85. 109,885 miles. MCU1. Not sure if the drive motor was replaced but likely. My big concerns are battery and motor death. How big of a risk am I taking buying it?
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Looking at buying a used 2013 Model S P85. 109,885 miles. MCU1. Not sure if the drive motor was replaced but likely. My big concerns are battery and motor death. How big of a risk am I taking buying it?
I honestly don't know how anyone gets someone to buy their used early Model S. They seem like nothing but a huge risk with the battery, drive unit, and suspension issues, not to mention they just weren't very nice cars to begin with in terms of giving a low level of luxury with high road noise, poor quality materials, terrible seat comfort, etc.
Of course, I have never owned one, but from what I have read on forums from owners, you have to have a certain amount of self loathing to buy one.
I can share some insight on who some of the buyers are.
I'm seeing lots of confident 100k+ mile German car DIYers are interested at ~$20k price range. This crowd don't spend $100k on cars but buys them for < 15-20% of original price and DIY maintenance fairly cheaply. This is also the group that keeps German cars on the road > 100k miles after first 2 owners (first owner 4yr lease, 2nd owner certified used to 100k miles then sell due to high none DIY repair costs) Model S's good looks along with good EV performance and driving dynamics attracts these DIYers that likes driving 10 year old BMWs+Audis (also good looks + great driving dynamics haha) for cheap. I spent some time hanging out with this group for 10 years on my 2 prior DIY maintained turbocharged Volvos and made a DIY website for those cars haha. It isn't so much self loathing... rather, repairing something expensive @ fairly low cost is quite satisfying for DIYers At $20k and likely $15k soon, older Model S interest from this group will be high.
B..U..T.... Model S adds a whole layer of challenge to even this fairly advanced DIY group. Starting with lifting challenges to deal with drive unit and battery. Large capacity lithium ion battery is crazy expensive (to this group) regardless of sourcing path (repair, salvage, reman, new) This group is unfamiliar with these new challenges and steps into Tesla land unknowingly. A recent fairly advanced youtuber DIYer's attempt (got the Model S for cheap with dead battery, discovered leaking LDU, couldn't stomach the DIY repair cost + complexity) is fairly typical.
This group is actually my main motivation to put together the LDU rebuild and Model S DIY info site. They need key DIY how-tos and part sourcings. In this process, what I have realized is there is all kinds of barriers to increase independent repair shops. This will be the primary reason driving the rapid depreciation of these cars after drive train warranty. Then of course, more German car DIYers step into Tesla land. Viscous cycle haha.
That does support what I was saying. I mean if the car had the cache of a Lamborghini or you could make a lot of money like Rich Rebuilds from rebuilding one of these basket cases, I could see taking them on. Otherwise, they need to be put in the crusher when they get to the point that you have to spend $20K to buy it and $20K to fix it. For $40K, you can buy a lot of much cooler cars that are easier to maintain.
The dealer is asking $24k.I have no experience in this area, but the risk will always strongly be based on what you are paying. How much does the Model S cost? It may be worth a shot trying to contact your local service center and see if they can give you any documents that pertain to repairs the car may have had.
The main question to ask is: Are you willing to nearly double your investment in this car, potentially within days/months of acquisition, if the battery fails?The dealer is asking $24k.
Hybrids application actually isn't a much gentler battery demand. A hybrid battery can easily go through multiple charge-discharge cycles over a given drive cycle. So when you look at the number of say 80-20% discharge cycles over lifetime, the pack in a hybrid vehicle actually can show a more severe overall duty cycle profile. Typically the packs, to the level of basic cell chemistry, is different for the battery pack in a hybrid vehicle versus one for a full-on BEV.Very hard to see large lithium pack on an EV use scenario getting there. Hybrids can get there with much gentler battery demand.
Hybrids application actually isn't a much gentler battery demand. A hybrid battery can easily go through multiple charge-discharge cycles over a given drive cycle. So when you look at the number of say 80-20% discharge cycles over lifetime, the pack in a hybrid vehicle actually can show a more severe overall duty cycle profile. Typically the packs, to the level of basic cell chemistry, is different for the battery pack in a hybrid vehicle versus one for a full-on BEV.
No way... even a dead Tesla is worth a lot as parts.Otherwise, they need to be put in the crusher when they get to the point that you have to spend $20K to buy it and $20K to fix it.
People talk of Lithium Ion batteries as if they are all created equal. There actually are several different categories of cell chemistry formulations that all fall under the general description as being lithium ion. Here's a link to page on the Battery University site that describes some of the different major categories, such as NMC or LFP which Tesla has/does use for different models. Even within the general category of LFP, there are now a variant known as LMFP which are being explored more.Interesting and good point. Toyota is deploying both NiMH and LiOn in various hybrids. Non plug-in cheapest hybrids are also getting LiOn. Presumably couple kWh pack. Perhaps these are different LiOn chemistry than pure EVs. They don't need the highest energy density (not much weight from small pack) but must aim at longevity if want to retain their current ~15+? year (13 years in the books now on gen3 hybrids) 200k+ mile longevity benchmark.
Any idea on how they could achieve this level of longevity with this much cycling with NiMh and LiOn? I guess Toyota's battery partner is Panasonic : Battery tech enabler for Toyota Hybrids and Tesla. And perhaps the cycling window is far smaller than 80-20%? Or maybe small battery BMS can be less conservative packing ~2 order of magnitude less energy?
Anyway, how does it seemingly get better longevity if the cycling is more aggressive?
Interesting analysis. IMO the last of the prior-gen Ravens (2019-2020) are probably the most well sorted and reliable as of now.I myself decided I won’t be buying any model S that is older than 2021 in the future.
No way... even a dead Tesla is worth a lot as parts.
I'm glad there're many recyclers that do that.
Plus, for the right price there's always a buyer willing to get it n fix it or part it out.
No, not at all.The main question to ask is: Are you willing to nearly double your investment in this car, potentially within days/months of acquisition, if the battery fails?