Utility Transformer Upgrade - Burden of Cost?

[MorrisonHiker]

Yeah... that's odd to me to force someone on a residential service schedule to pay for their transformers. I believe the way it works here under Xcel is Xcel pays for the equipment required to provide the service you want. If you want to be under a residential rate Xcel provides you with 240v and they pay to provide 240v. If you want cheaper 'wholesale' rates you can take 115kV but you're on the hook for the equipment required to make 480, 208, 240 or whatever...

Xcel said we could pay $8000 for an engineering study to see if a new transformer was warranted. If it was, they would cover the $15000 transformer upgrade cost. If it wasn't, we'd be out the $8000.

How does the power company get away with undersizing transformers? There has to be some logic behind this.
My 100KVA transformers feed 4 houses, all with 320A service. That is 104A, or 25KVA per house.

How many houses are on the same transformer? Take your usage and multiply it by that number for a general estimate. If it’s more than the # on transformer you may have a case.

In my neighborhood, there are 4 or 5 houses on the same 25 KVA transformer and our house is the last one on the line. My neighbor next to me has an entire 25 KVA transformer to herself. When I complained about our power issues, Xcel said that the transformer was sized based on household usage (30 to 50 years ago} and it wasn't their fault that we bought ”smart cars".

Do you know what the AC rating is? You could file a complaint with the utility commission or whatever public service body you guys have up there. If the AC rating is ~15kW that's just silly to upgrade the transformer.

I think I will finally file a complaint with the utility commission. Our issue has gone on for years and the utility still hasn't done anything about it.

 

[Gwgan]

Added second house to transformer 12 years ago. Added solar 3 years ago and at that time Central Maine Power upgraded the transformer in response to the interconnect request. No discussion about who should pay. It is their equipment and their responsibility. How are your utilities passing these costs along to individuals?

 

[x10Corey]

Update, I heard back from Tesla:

Each customers project is unique between system sizes and contract types. Your project will go through a profitability review with our team. This review will determine if or how much Tesla can cover for this particular upgrade.

I'll update again when I hear back, I guess it doesn't hurt to ask for this 'review' if you end up in a similar situation.

How many houses are on the same transformer? Take your usage and multiply it by that number for a general estimate. If it’s more than the # on transformer you may have a case.

I think it's just myself and one other house, I know I use a lot. My average monthly usage is about 2,500 kWh and Sense says my average watt usage is 3,707. If Tesla denies me I'll take a more detailed look outside and figure out what's hooked up to it though.

 

[x10Corey]

Just posting an update, after my request being 'lost', then my account specialist not actually reading my emails the request made it to the right dept and they approved paying for the upgrade. So Tesla will be paying for my transformer upgrade, however, I'm now concerned that the mismanagement and delays will push this whole ordeal into next year and cause me to miss out on tax savings. Still waiting to hear back on an install date :\.

 

[zƬesla]

Tesla may reduce project cost by the tax loss amount if it has to be pushed until next year due to their delinquency. Doesn't hurt to ask.

 

[jjrandorin]

Tesla may reduce project cost by the tax loss amount if it has to be pushed until next year due to their delinquency. Doesn't hurt to ask.

Yeah, definitely save the emails and such. You can request an adjustment for the tax credit reduction if you miss this year through no fault of your own in "performing". They granted it for me at the beginning of this year, for example. Took a few months after install but I got a check for the 4% difference, because tesla moved offices during my order / scheduling period and went dark on me or 5-6 weeks, causing me to get installed on Jan 6th of this year vs end of last year.

Once I explained (politiely) that I was looking for an adjustment due to tesla missing the dates to install when I would have made it if they had been timely, my rep escalated my request and it was approved.

No promises of course, but there is precedent, provided you can easily prove dates of emails etc if you need to.

Good luck, @x10Corey and keep us informed, looking forward to seeing how this comes out.

 

[CSFTN]

Tesla may reduce project cost by the tax loss amount if it has to be pushed until next year due to their delinquency. Doesn't hurt to ask.

I've been of the opinion- think I read online- that date of activation isn't important for the tax deduction. For solar, its date you began the work.

Anyone know for sure that I am wrong?
DOE web site says "installed" not "put into service" ... https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/f...deral Tax Credit for Residential Solar PV.pdf

 

[wjgjr]

I've been of the opinion- think I read online- that date of activation isn't important for the tax deduction. For solar, its date you began the work.

Anyone know for sure that I am wrong?
DOE web site says "installed" not "put into service" ... https://www.energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2020/01/f70/Guide to Federal Tax Credit for Residential Solar PV.pdf

Installed is not the same as began work. Began work and various "safe harbor" discussions are usually referring to the commercial credit, which has different rules from the residential. I would agree that installed is different from PTO and even inspection.

 

[jjrandorin]

Installed is not the same as began work. Began work and various "safe harbor" discussions are usually referring to the commercial credit, which has different rules from the residential. I would agree that installed is different from PTO and even inspection.

Also, the difference between "beginning work" and "installed" for a residential PV install is a difference of a couple days, normally.

 

[wjgjr]

Also, the difference between "beginning work" and "installed" for a residential PV install is a difference of a couple days, normally.

Yes, but the "trick" for commercial installs that some shady residential solar companies have pushed is to buy a small amount of the equipment and potentially even deliver it. Under the commercial rules, (and there is even some specific safe-harbor language) this can constitute the "beginning" of the project to lock in the tax credit at the higher rate, even if the project is not complete until a following year. The IRS has been explicit in stating this is not allowed for residential, possibly because of some of these schemes that attempt to define the beginning of the project much earlier than the start of the couple days spent on the roof to do the install.

 

[x10Corey]

This is what they sent me last week:

I wanted to outline the timeline for your project so that you have the most realistic expectations going forward. We’ve already sent the check for the transformer upgrade to Eversource so the upgrade can begin. You have a couple options in regards to how the project can proceed. Please see the outline below and let me know what you’d like to move forward with and whether you have any questions.


Installing After Transformer Upgrade:

Pros:

• Start loan payments after your system is turned on

Cons:

• 22% Federal Tax Credit

Installing Before Transformer Upgrade:

Pros:

• Receive 26% Federal Tax Credit

Cons:

• Sunlight loan payments begin 60-75 days after installation
• 12-28 transformer upgrade week timeline
• Unable to turn system on until transformer upgrade is complete and Eversource provides permission to operate after they review the permission to operate application (submitted after transformer upgrade: 2-3 week review time.)

I talked to Eversource on Friday and they told me that once payment is received the transformer upgrade would be completed within 15 business days. I'm not sure where Tesla is getting the 12-28 week time frame from. They also have not received the check as of yesterday, so hopefully they actually sent it. I responded to Tesla on Friday asking where they got 12-28 weeks from when Eversource is quoting me 3 weeks max and also asked for the earliest installation date.

I'm hoping since I have this in writing that even if it goes into next year I can get Tesla to pay the tax difference. I can't wait until this is all over with and hopefully I don't have to chase after Tesla for an additional tax rebate, that sounds like just another hassle I don't want.

 

[wycolo]

Lightning hit my transformer while I was working on a car some 70 feet away, fun time! Co-op replaced the pole pig with a refurb at no cost of course. They need to drain the oil in order to check the windings inside for possible damage. Usually the fuses/breakers do their job so the workers just refill with filtered oil and stack it with the fresh refurbs awaiting new assignment. So are you getting a refurb or brand new?
--

 

[zƬesla]

For what it's worth, Eversource replaced our transformer in NH pretty quick (<1 week if memory serves). They also installed the new transformer one pole over, which didn't have one, so there wasn't even an outage.

 

[x10Corey]

So are you getting a refurb or brand new?
--

Eversource didn't specify if it was new or a refurb, maybe once they receive the check from Tesla and schedule the work they'll provide more info?

I'm so frustrated with Tesla, we're now entering Oct and this is what they sent me on Friday (a week later) after I told them I want an install date ASAP and questioned where they got the 12-24 week transformer install time.

Hi Corey,

The timeline was pulled from other projects with the same scope of work. However I will have my utility specialist reach out to Eversource to confirm the timeline you mentioned as we are currently coordinating the work order with them. We won’t have an ETA for install until after the upgrade has been completed. Our scheduling team will reach out to set up a date once the transformer upgrade has been closed out. Additionally, I have included my colleague, Zach, who will be your dedicated Project Advisor moving forward. Zach is very familiar with your area and will be a terrific resource as your project moves toward our ultimate goal of activation.

Now it changed to the transformer upgrade has to be complete before the install is scheduled even though the previous email stated I can install before the upgrade to make sure I get the tax credit. Maybe this new advisor will actually get something done and reply to me more then once a week.

 

[Dypkny845]

Central hudson in NY told me 6-8 week wait. So I'm patiently waiting. SMH

 

[x10Corey]

I just received a reply that makes no sense to me, on the plus side of things it didn't take a week to get this:

Hi Corey,

This is correct we can not install the system before the upgrade has been completed. The risk to damage on the grid is too high to install pre upgrade. We are working on getting your system installed as soon as we can. Unfortunately we can not install until your utility has upgraded the transformer. Tesla is already covering the cost of the transformer upgrade to install the system. The current delay is being caused by utility infrastructure and there isn’t anything that we are currently able to do but wait for them to replace the transformer.

He didn't answer my question as to why they already asked me if I wanted to install prior to the upgrade in order to take advantage of the tax credit. Besides that question not being answered, the risk of damaging the grid?? This doesn't make sense to me, obviously they wouldn't turn the system on until the transformer upgrade was complete, but the installation should still be able to proceed shouldn't it? Am I missing something?

 

[kayak1]

Do you know what the AC rating is? You could file a complaint with the utility commission or whatever public service body you guys have up there. If the AC rating is ~15kW that's just silly to upgrade the transformer.

Transformer ratings are weird. Utilities play fast and loose A LOT with kW ratings on their equipment. I have a friend with 400A service and a 25kVA transformer. I charged at a RV park once that had 4 50A spaces and it was connected to a 10kVA transformer.

I have 200 AMP service. Before I installed my solar the transformer had to be upgraded from 10kVA to a 25kVA, they have a 35kVA option but my solar setup is only 18KW (24KW of panels) and they wouldn't let me go with a bigger one even though I had to pay for the upgrade.

 

[kayak1]

Added second house to transformer 12 years ago. Added solar 3 years ago and at that time Central Maine Power upgraded the transformer in response to the interconnect request. No discussion about who should pay. It is their equipment and their responsibility. How are your utilities passing these costs along to individuals?

You did well, CMP required me to pay for the upgrade:

"Your equipment has failed the required technical screens 6I for a Level 1 Application.



· Screen 6I: The generator cannot exceed the capacity of the Customer’s existing electrical service.


You are currently served from 10 KVA transformer and your proposed 18.00 kW PV system will exceed the capacity of the transformer. Therefore, in order to interconnect your proposed 18.00 kW PV system, the 10 KVA transformer will need to be replaced with a 25 KVA transformer. If you elect to have this upgrade done, a notification will be created, a field planner will design the necessary upgrade, and an invoice (for travel and labor only of the line crew preforming the upgrade) will be sent to you for payment. Upon receipt of payment, the work will be scheduled with the line department for completion."

 

[SoCal Dave]

You did well, CMP required me to pay for the upgrade:

"Your equipment has failed the required technical screens 6I for a Level 1 Application.



· Screen 6I: The generator cannot exceed the capacity of the Customer’s existing electrical service.


You are currently served from 10 KVA transformer and your proposed 18.00 kW PV system will exceed the capacity of the transformer. Therefore, in order to interconnect your proposed 18.00 kW PV system, the 10 KVA transformer will need to be replaced with a 25 KVA transformer. If you elect to have this upgrade done, a notification will be created, a field planner will design the necessary upgrade, and an invoice (for travel and labor only of the line crew preforming the upgrade) will be sent to you for payment. Upon receipt of payment, the work will be scheduled with the line department for completion."

Is it cost effective to pay for the transformer replacement instead of going with a smaller system? Maybe add more down the road when your neighbors pay for the transformer upgrade because they got solar

 

[x10Corey]

Just a final update on this topic. Utility (Eversource) replaced the transformer within 2 weeks of receiving payment from Tesla. I was outside watching them replace the transformer and contacted Tesla once completed, they still refused to pass it on to install without confirmation from Eversource. Eversource does not do any type of confirmation though and my advisor seemed incapable of calling them. I was able to find a link through Google for contractors to put in their W\O # and get the status. I sent this to my advisor and he marked it off completed and told me scheduling would contact me. Waited a week with no contact and called back... apparently a 'glitch' on the website prevented it from moving to scheduling. Scheduled it for two weeks later.

The day before install I attempted reaching out to Tesla\Advisor to confirm the install the next day with no luck. Website said 7AM and the whole install would only take 5 hours. Install day came and to my surprise they actually showed up (8AM). The installers were great, very professional and they even cleaned out my gutters! It took them 3 full days to complete the installation. They turned the system on and just told me to turn it off once the batteries were charged. Unfortunately the app showed the batteries charging to 45% and stopping, I tried discharging\charging over the next couple of days without any luck. I shut the system off as I called the town inspector and scheduled him to come out. Tesla also sent their own guy out to meet the inspector. Our town inspector works part time for the town and didn't even shut his truck off in the driveway, he was in and out in 10 minutes. The Tesla guy just took off all the panels to show the underlying wiring and put it all back on and left.

I have a ticket in with Tesla about the powerwall issue, the tech on the phone said only one of the three powerwalls is actually working even though all three are online. I'm waiting for level 2 to try and troubleshoot remotely, if that fails they're supposed to schedule a service call. Hopefully that happens quickly.

My takeaways from this process:
Do not trust Tesla. The amount of misinformation and poor internal communication is absurd. Stay on top of your project and advisor to make sure things are moving forward. If they say something is waiting on someone else such as the town, call and confirm if you can. I paid an extra $1,000 for "hidden conduit", the install team had no clue that I had paid for it. Luckily they went over their general plan before starting with me and I mentioned it to them, they weren't super happy about this as I think it extended the overall installation time.