They use Michelin and Pirelli tyres, glass from an outside manufacturer (can't remember which), batteries from Panasonic etc. I bet they don't manufacture the cameras they use either. So, the fact that the sensors required to control auto lights and wipers come from outside suppliers shouldn't be an issue.
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V11 - what’s your verdict?
- Thread starter pdk42
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Do you expect to be able to answer calls on the screen using one hand while overtaking ? Isn't the workaround to complete the maneuver and turn of the indicator.
Generally I agree that there's little value in the visualization, except when I'm using NoA when it helps my understand when I can activate a lane change by colour.
AutomaticMan
Member
Not got my Model 3 yet, but have watched loads of videos of how the old software and new software work and find the lack of love for the new software interesting. What's funny to me is that most car reviewers bleat on endlessly (and really overdo it in my opinion) about how physical controls are better than touchscreen controls. It looks to me like what Tesla have done is encourage the use of physical controls for things that used to be on the main screen of the touchscreen and people don't like it. So, pressing the wiper stalk to bring up the wiper menu rather than tapping an icon to bring up the wiper menu, or flashing the lights to bring up the menu with the foglights on it for example.
My personal view is that from what I understand of the differences, I think I will prefer V11 and hope they don't revert too much to the old design in response to criticism. I like that they've moved things that aren't used much off the main screen, or moved some of the things that are used from the main screen to the physical controls, in order to reduce the number of icons on the main screen and make those icons customisable. I wouldn't choose to dedicate screen space to a permanent wipers icon if I know I have a button to bring it up anyway. I also think making it clear to passengers how they control their climate settings makes things easier for them.
But then, I won't be sharing driving of my car with another person, so can see why making things like drivers profiles an extra click away would be more annoying to other people than to me.
Though I did also think that the blind spot cameras were pointless when I test drove the car. Totally in an unnatural place to be looking when doing a lane change. If I have to move my head to a completely different position to use them, I might as well just do a shoulder check as normal. Maybe they are useful for people who have neck mobility problems and can't do shoulder checks, but otherwise I doubt I'll find them useful. I've seen videos of the newer Korean cars where they show the blind spot cameras in the driver's display and that makes sense because it's in your line of sight, but sadly I don't think this is a feature that works on central touchscreens.
My personal view is that from what I understand of the differences, I think I will prefer V11 and hope they don't revert too much to the old design in response to criticism. I like that they've moved things that aren't used much off the main screen, or moved some of the things that are used from the main screen to the physical controls, in order to reduce the number of icons on the main screen and make those icons customisable. I wouldn't choose to dedicate screen space to a permanent wipers icon if I know I have a button to bring it up anyway. I also think making it clear to passengers how they control their climate settings makes things easier for them.
But then, I won't be sharing driving of my car with another person, so can see why making things like drivers profiles an extra click away would be more annoying to other people than to me.
Though I did also think that the blind spot cameras were pointless when I test drove the car. Totally in an unnatural place to be looking when doing a lane change. If I have to move my head to a completely different position to use them, I might as well just do a shoulder check as normal. Maybe they are useful for people who have neck mobility problems and can't do shoulder checks, but otherwise I doubt I'll find them useful. I've seen videos of the newer Korean cars where they show the blind spot cameras in the driver's display and that makes sense because it's in your line of sight, but sadly I don't think this is a feature that works on central touchscreens.
Jason71
Well-Known Member
I just tried to dictate a text message.
Once completed the text was too small for me to proof read it while driving
FFS
Once completed the text was too small for me to proof read it while driving
FFS
Wol747
Active Member
>>I don't think Tesla has any excuse for not having effective automatic headlights and wipers; the technology to do both is tried, tested and available off the shelf at a low price. The same applies to TACC or adaptive cruse control (using well established radar based systems would eliminate phantom braking almost entirely).<<
More to the point IMO is - just because something CAN be done, should it BE done?
Things are getting Pythonesque - fridges that allow you to see the contents from the other side of the world or which have a TV screen at the front to avoid the trauma of opening the door, smartphones with dozens of "apps" in them that no-one has the foggiest idea about.
I have to say I prefer having lights and wipers operated on my behest via a physical knob/stalk/switch, whatever.
More to the point IMO is - just because something CAN be done, should it BE done?
Things are getting Pythonesque - fridges that allow you to see the contents from the other side of the world or which have a TV screen at the front to avoid the trauma of opening the door, smartphones with dozens of "apps" in them that no-one has the foggiest idea about.
I have to say I prefer having lights and wipers operated on my behest via a physical knob/stalk/switch, whatever.
the matrix lights are Hella (samsung manufactured) too (102 ’pixels’). I don’t know if other car manufacturers have their own sensors/cameras to drive the matrix part, or they come from Hella too? Knowing Tesla they probably just bought the units and assumed their onboard cameras would have the necessary FoV/resolution to drive them eventually
AutomaticMan
Member
It’s not exactly cutting edge technology this though is it? I believe the Citroen DS had automatic wipers back in the 1960s? Certainly every car I’ve had going back years have had them and they’ve worked well. If Tesla’s system is as bad as reported (I don’t have my M3 yet to tell for myself) then it sounds like a case of Tesla not getting the basics right to me.
In the case of auto wipers, auto dip head lights and adaptive cruise control, all three are useful if they work well and, therefore, should be included in my view. Maybe you have never had a car in which they work properly, but I have and they are all useful. For example, properly controlled matrix head lights (eg on a BMW 5 series) give a far better view of the road at night and never risk dazzling on coming drivers.
The principle of what Tesla is attempting is fine, but the execution is patchy.
"Things that aren't used much" - Example, a lot members here used the trip cards on every drive. The curious thing about Tesla's decision there is that the cards were hidden by default anyway. Similarly, icons for the dashcam/sentry were about as unobtrusive as you could wish for but they still pushed them under the controls menu.
"I wouldn't choose to dedicate screen space to a permanent wipers icon if I know I have a button to bring it up anyway."
"I also think making it clear to passengers how they control their climate settings makes things easier for them."
I'll repeat the criticisms I made earlier in a v11 thread. The popup cards are a good idea, but they all require prior action before they appear. You have to wipe the screen before you get the wiper card. You have to flash the lights (or toggle auto high beam), before you get the lights popup. Your passenger will have to adjust the temperature for everyone before they get the popup which offers to split the zones.
It's all a bit ass-backwards at the moment. I hope Telsa's UI designers realise this and come up with a way to solve it in a way that's compatible with their design language direction.
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Tesla could have done more in the way of consumer testing, a group of people who suggest, review and agree to new ideas
The screen is dynamic and Tesla want to exploit that, but the most obvious idea of driving commands when driving and toybox when stationary wasn’t done. Context sensitive menu.
I imagine what Tesla have done is said ‘how many times were wipers changed?’ Globally maybe not very often and some computer decided that wipers can fall down the priority list, same as fog lights which aren’t even fitted to 2/3 of Teslas worldwide. The faith in data without the understanding, something I’ve seen a lot over the years, has driven the commands.
The screen is dynamic and Tesla want to exploit that, but the most obvious idea of driving commands when driving and toybox when stationary wasn’t done. Context sensitive menu.
I imagine what Tesla have done is said ‘how many times were wipers changed?’ Globally maybe not very often and some computer decided that wipers can fall down the priority list, same as fog lights which aren’t even fitted to 2/3 of Teslas worldwide. The faith in data without the understanding, something I’ve seen a lot over the years, has driven the commands.
AutomaticMan
Member
This sounds fair, and I should continue to stress that I don't actually have a Tesla yet so my opinions on this aren't based on a whole lot of experience!
Maybe it's a case that the ideas in V11 are broadly right, but it needs a few tweaks to iron out some of the clunky things. The flow of changing passenger climate as you describe it being a perfect example. When the driver changes their temperature it should change both sides, unless split zone is already active; but when the passenger changes their temperature, that action should put it into split mode automatically. That's a very simple behind the scenes change to the way it operates without giving up and rolling back to the previous version.
On the other hand, the dash cam decision makes sense to me as, I believe, you can set the horn to trigger a recording? So that's another one where there is an easily accessible physical button to do it... arguably the most accessible physical button! Any scenario in which you need to urgently trigger a recording (seconds before a major crash for example) is almost certainly a situation in which you will hit the horn. If you just want to trigger a recording in 'slower time' in the minutes after something you decide you want captured, it isn't the end of the world for the trigger to have gone from being one tap on the screen to two taps I think.
It's not, we just have a vocal minority here that keep banging on about the same gripes, there is a handy feature to block people though.
Auto wipers work perfect well in the rain during daytime, they are ok but not great in the dark, and currently do seem to sometimes get a bit carried away when really they should stop. They are easily better than my previous 2012 BMW, but that was well behind the times.
Auto Dip Headlights also work perfectly well, I really struggle to see what the issue is people have. Some say they did for reflections from some roadsigns, not something that bothers me much. They aren't matrix headlights like you would get by adding several thousands of extras onto other cars, but we know that when buying.
Auto Pilot is also far better on motorway's than anything else I've tried, including recent MobileEye solutions. Using it off the motorway isn't great, it's not recommended by Tesla and can be pretty terrifying. I use AP (with FSD for lane changes) on a motorway every day, like many things it takes a while to get used to quite how to use it, but then it's like nothing else. Phantom braking seems to get used as a generic term for anytime the car brakes and the driver didn't see why, it's incredibly rare for me, like I think once in the last 10K miles. I think there is a lot of difference depending on people's driving style, I'm very passive, keep the maximum follow distance, and generally stick at about the speed limit.
Likewise, you can spot the sunshiners a mile off. Stick a poll up about auto wipers and we'll see who's in the minority. The wipers in my 2013 BMW were perfection. They must have made giant strides in 12 months
. But crucially they had four levels of sensitivity adjustment so it made them agreeable to a much larger cross section of drivers. I'll post up a video of Tesla's furiously dry-wiping a screen in broad daylight. Hell you can even invoke it using the washer jets, it's that bad.I fully agree, the vocal minority are so unhappy with their Tesla I just don’t understand why they just can’t sell their cars and buy their favourite mundane German saloons and enjoy autowipers and auto headlights.
Because **** off and go somewhere else is the lamest retort you can possibly imagine. We expect better. We demand better, because it can be done. And you know what? Despite the valid critiques, the vast majority of us like our cars. We just have the critical faculties to appreciate and articulate that not everything is unicorns and rainbows. Wanting better is not a crime.
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AutomaticMan
Member
My VW ID.3 (at £20k less than the Tesla M3) that I'm selling tomorrow to fund my purchase of the M3 has matrix headlights that block out part of the beam automatically when your high beams are on to avoid dazzling other road users, rather than dipping the whole beam to do it. And the auto-wipers work great with 4 different levels of sensitivity that you can adjust.
But look, clearly I'm not saying the ID.3 is a better car overall. I wouldn't be trading it plus a £20k bag of money for the Tesla M3 if I thought the ID.3 was the better car.
My impression of the Tesla from what I've learnt in researching the car (and all this could be wrong, as I don't have the car yet) is that the Tesla M3 is a car that has a number of standout features. The performance, charging network, minimalist design, UI and software integration (with a great smartphone app!) is significantly class-leading and it is what has motivated me to buy one, and is why I'm looking forward to it so much.
But it also looks like in some areas, Tesla still has a way to go to catch up with the traditional car-makers. From what I've heard lighting is one, auto-wipers are another, 2D only navigation mapping is another. That's not a huge surprise of course. These volume seller traditional car-makers add these technologies to every one of their many different models, and have had decades of incremental refinement to make them work. Tesla is a younger company, and has to pick and choose where it puts its effort. Do they sell more cars by getting their developers to work on full self driving or on automatic wiper tuning, after all?
So it is understandable, but I also think that if owners never point out to Tesla that they would like some of the basic features like auto wipers to work better, then they never will. I think it is reasonable to buy a Tesla because you love the areas where they're ahead of the game, but still hope that they improve in the areas where they're behind the game.
But look, clearly I'm not saying the ID.3 is a better car overall. I wouldn't be trading it plus a £20k bag of money for the Tesla M3 if I thought the ID.3 was the better car.
My impression of the Tesla from what I've learnt in researching the car (and all this could be wrong, as I don't have the car yet) is that the Tesla M3 is a car that has a number of standout features. The performance, charging network, minimalist design, UI and software integration (with a great smartphone app!) is significantly class-leading and it is what has motivated me to buy one, and is why I'm looking forward to it so much.
But it also looks like in some areas, Tesla still has a way to go to catch up with the traditional car-makers. From what I've heard lighting is one, auto-wipers are another, 2D only navigation mapping is another. That's not a huge surprise of course. These volume seller traditional car-makers add these technologies to every one of their many different models, and have had decades of incremental refinement to make them work. Tesla is a younger company, and has to pick and choose where it puts its effort. Do they sell more cars by getting their developers to work on full self driving or on automatic wiper tuning, after all?
So it is understandable, but I also think that if owners never point out to Tesla that they would like some of the basic features like auto wipers to work better, then they never will. I think it is reasonable to buy a Tesla because you love the areas where they're ahead of the game, but still hope that they improve in the areas where they're behind the game.
I'm not at all saying that Tesla has leading capabilities in every single feature, the wipers could be better, but they are no where close to what people describe here. You will see for yourself when you get a Tesla.
Tesla are constantly developing Model 3, it's been over 4 years since release and has had many features changed. It would seem quite possible that newer cars may gain matrix light functionality in the future. Sure your ID3 (which must be only about a year old) had chosen to include matrix lights, but it's still an exception on cars in that price range, so much so that they mention it within the third sentence of their product description. It's still an option on most BMW models.
There is nothing wrong with navigation, it's far easier and clearer to use then anything I've seen elsewhere.
I absolutely agree that people should share their opinions with Tesla, but that's not going to happen by posting here. I wonder how they shared feedback with VW to talk about the poor mobile app, or with BMW to help them determine the optimum size for a front grill.
AutomaticMan
Member
Oh yep, 100%. I mean, I was the same about my ID.3 "love the lights, hate the app, etc." too. It's funny, on ID.3 forums I would be accused of being an ID.3 fanboi and an ID.3 h8er in about equal measure
Anyway, the optimum size for a BMW front grill is 2 football pitches isn't it? (sorry BMW lovers, meant only in jest!)
I do think owner discussions on forums probably do work their way through to Tesla though. Big car makers would be nuts not to employ at least a couple of people to keep an eye on owners forums and report back on owner feelings about the car. I don't have any evidence for that, but it just strikes me as an obvious thing for a car-maker to do.
I have to agree, it's the people that are complaining that are the ones that force tesla to make changes. If you're happy with your wipers, that's great, I'm not overly concerned about them ... but they are fairly crap, and if someone wants to shout about it and they get better then that's fantastic.
Things in V11 like "hiding" the fog lights because you don't use them much is madness, but anyone that hasn't hit a sudden patch of fog would probably think i was being over dramatic if I started waving my arms about shouting "safety issue"... but I wouldn't be, it was bloody dangerous trying to poke about at the screen after failed attempts at voice commands.
I very much doubt that they do, it's a very distorted view and represents a very small number of their customers and has negligible reach. The opinions of a YouTuber with 100K+ subscribers is far more interesting. Basically Jack Massey Welsh dressing his girlfriend as a traffic cone is almost certainly more important than any of us to Tesla.Oh yep, 100%. I mean, I was the same about my ID.3 "love the lights, hate the app, etc." too. It's funny, on ID.3 forums I would be accused of being an ID.3 fanboi and an ID.3 h8er in about equal measure
Anyway, the optimum size for a BMW front grill is 2 football pitches isn't it? (sorry BMW lovers, meant only in jest!)
I do think owner discussions on forums probably do work their way through to Tesla though. Big car makers would be nuts not to employ at least a couple of people to keep an eye on owners forums and report back on owner feelings about the car. I don't have any evidence for that, but it just strikes me as an obvious thing for a car-maker to do.
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