V11 - what’s your verdict?

[spdpsba]

With my moderator hat on, can we just try and keep the discussion civil otherwise I'll end up spending my evening moving posts to the snippiness area

And with the hat off.... (and at the risk of needing to move my own post later!!)...

Cars are a mixture of attributes, some good, some bad. My frustration is partly "Tesla is more high tech than anything out there..." which is the claim by some and yet some basics don't work, and the "4 years of updates" can equally be seen as "4 years of finishing what should have worked 4 years ago". There is so much relatively basic technology that Tesla do not have compared to others - meaningful and accurate speed limit recognition in all situations, adaptive headlights as mentioned, surround parking view despite having all those cameras, head up display, rear cross traffic safety warnings, refusing to lock or allow the boot to close if the key is in the car, the foot wave and the boot opens thing, carplay, safety camera alerts... I value these things more than TikTok and Disney+because they're things that I'd use. If I spent hours charging with kids then I might value things differently.

I also don't get the "fancy headlights are an option on other cars" argument because so what? Does that excuse the fact Tesla don't have them on the most technically advanced car you can buy? Tesla have virtually no options, but options aren't a bad thing. If the Model 3 was available for £2k less without the glass roof I'd have £2k more in my pocket. And before we're too critical of the oposition pricing, Tesla charge £1500 for a wheel upgrade, on the BMW i4 you can pay £1350 and also get bigger brakes, improved cooling, wider rear wheel arches etc. thrown in. EAP is £3,400. BMW charge £1,900 for parking, dashcam, driver assist, lane change, surround view etc. One approach isn't better than another, they're just different.

As it happens, yesterday the autowipers were the best they've been for me on the Tesla, but my confidence is still low and I would not be surprised if the next release made them worse - and that is a real sense of frustration. At least our BMW has the same faults, missing features and idiosyncracies that it had last week, and the buttons are in the same place.

I agree with some of your points. But at the same time I am afraid some of your views are plain wrong.

The reality with Tesla is as you mentioned it is a high tech car. Your views regarding one approach is not better than the other is a very simplistic view when it comes to comparing Tesla and BMW. From a consumer point of view EAP cost of 3600 is high compared to the 1900 BMW charges for similar things. And some may prefer functionality in BMW more value for money than in Tesla. But this is not like for like comparison in terms of car value or the tech behind this.

The hardware in Tesla for example for self driving and deep learning is probably 10 years ahead of what it is doing today, so you pay for that and that is your 3600 cost of EAP. The foot wave, car play and the other thing you mentioned doesn’t cost anything when compared to the tech you have in that car. You may prefer footwave and other add ons and others may prefer TikTok and so on. The essentials car makers think consumers need in a car may keep changing depending on range of factors and Tesla has its own interpretation of what their consumers want. Whether it is right or wrong is not what we are discussing that is a choice for you to decide what you think you need in a car.

However, if we go back to the main contentious issue that keeps coming up here again and again -
what I want now (autowipers, auto headlights and user friendly interface) which is not available and then what is the point of buying something which I can’t use for 10 years. Also the highly critical view rightly or wrongly regarding AP and FSD. The car you have today is something like a light bulb in 1800s when everyone was using candles - it was expensive, lots of infrastructure needed and most of the time in the early part of invention didn’t last more than few days and wasn’t powerful than a candle. If we had stopped then for the comfort of reliable candles we wouldn’t be driving a Tesla now. This is just an example!

In this forum lots of us has explained why it is taking so long for the software to be developed and why without billions of miles of road experience it is impossible for Tesla to optimise the software to perfection if at all it is possible. But we’ve been labelled as fanboys and subjected to all sort of abuse. It is unfortunate some of the forum moderators turn a blind eye to these abuse.

The vocal minority neither can understand the technology nor the aspects of self driving and deep learning. I have attached a link here, so before go and post the same views again and again pretending that is true listen to this video and try and understand a bit about the tech your car has which you are oblivious to.

MIT Deep Learning and Artificial Intelligence Lectures | Lex Fridman

A collection of lectures on deep learning, deep reinforcement learning, autonomous vehicles, and artificial intelligence organized by Lex Fridman.

deeplearning.mit.edu

Lex Fridman recently interviewed Elon a very interesting one.

 

[AutomaticMan]

I agree with some of your points. But at the same time I am afraid some of your views are plain wrong.

The reality with Tesla is as you mentioned it is a high tech car. Your views regarding one approach is not better than the other is a very simplistic view when it comes to comparing Tesla and BMW. From a consumer point of view EAP cost of 3600 is high compared to the 1900 BMW charges for similar things. And some may prefer functionality in BMW more value for money than in Tesla. But this is not like for like comparison in terms of car value or the tech behind this.

The hardware in Tesla for example for self driving and deep learning is probably 10 years ahead of what it is doing today, so you pay for that and that is your 3600 cost of EAP. The foot wave, car play and the other thing you mentioned doesn’t cost anything when compared to the tech you have in that car. You may prefer footwave and other add ons and others may prefer TikTok and so on. The essentials car makers think consumers need in a car may keep changing depending on range of factors and Tesla has its own interpretation of what their consumers want. Whether it is right or wrong is not what we are discussing that is a choice for you to decide what you think you need in a car.

However, if we go back to the main contentious issue that keeps coming up here again and again -
what I want now (autowipers, auto headlights and user friendly interface) which is not available and then what is the point of buying something which I can’t use for 10 years. Also the highly critical view rightly or wrongly regarding AP and FSD. The car you have is something like a light bulb when everyone is using candles - it is expensive, lots of infrastructure needed and most of the time in the early prt didn’t last more than few days and wasn’t powerful than a candle. If we had stopped then for the comfort of reliable candles we wouldn’t be driving a Tesla now. This is just an example!

In this forum lots of us has explained why it is taking so long for the software to be developed and why without billions of miles of road experience it is impossible for Tesla to optimise the software to perfection if at all it is possible. But we’ve been labelled as fanboys and subjected to all sort of abuse. It is unfortunate some of the forum moderators turn a blind eye to these abuse.

The vocal minority neither can understand the technology nor the aspects of self driving and deep learning. I have attached a link here, so before go and post the same views again and again pretending that is true listen to this video and try and understand a bit about the tech your car has which you are oblivious to.

MIT Deep Learning and Artificial Intelligence Lectures | Lex Fridman

A collection of lectures on deep learning, deep reinforcement learning, autonomous vehicles, and artificial intelligence organized by Lex Fridman.

deeplearning.mit.edu

Lex Fridman recently interviewed Elon a very interesting one.

Really not sure I get this. The selling point of a Tesla is that one day, in many many years time it might have true autonomous driving capabilities? Why wouldn't I hold onto my cash for now and wait to buy it when that future day arrives and it actually has those capabilities? Not many people hold onto a new car for more than 5 years or so anyway, so if the autonomous capabilities take 6 years to arrive then you never got to realise that benefit anyway.

I'm buying a Tesla because of the acceleration, design, fact that it's a saloon car shape (most rivals are SUVs), software user interface/app, supercharger network, audio system and the fact that most of its driver assistance technologies are as advanced as those in competitor cars. Not because it might have more autonomous features one day in the future if I still own it then. And to get those things that I'm buying it for, I'll tolerate the things that I think are still a little underdeveloped about it. Navigation UI, fact that I can't browse music using bluetooth (or use Apple Music as an app, which would work for me too), and if some posts on this thread are to be believed, unreliable automatic wipers/headlights.

 

[spdpsba]

Really not sure I get this. The selling point of a Tesla is that one day, in many many years time it might have true autonomous driving capabilities? Why wouldn't I hold onto my cash for now and wait to buy it when that future day arrives and it actually has those capabilities? Not many people hold onto a new car for more than 5 years or so anyway, so if the autonomous capabilities take 6 years to arrive then you never got to realise that benefit anyway.

I'm buying a Tesla because of the acceleration, design, fact that it's a saloon car shape (most rivals are SUVs), software user interface/app, supercharger network, audio system and the fact that most of its driver assistance technologies are as advanced as those in competitor cars. Not because it might have more autonomous features one day in the future if I still own it then. And to get those things that I'm buying it for, I'll tolerate the things that I think are still a little underdeveloped about it. Navigation UI, fact that I can't browse music using bluetooth (or use Apple Music as an app, which would work for me too), and if some posts on this thread are to be believed,

Can’t help.

 

[AutomaticMan]

Can’t help.

Being condescending is a good start though, eh!

 

[browellm]

I agree with some of your points. But at the same time I am afraid some of your views are plain wrong.

The reality with Tesla is as you mentioned it is a high tech car. Your views regarding one approach is not better than the other is a very simplistic view when it comes to comparing Tesla and BMW. From a consumer point of view EAP cost of 3600 is high compared to the 1900 BMW charges for similar things. And some may prefer functionality in BMW more value for money than in Tesla. But this is not like for like comparison in terms of car value or the tech behind this.

The hardware in Tesla for example for self driving and deep learning is probably 10 years ahead of what it is doing today, so you pay for that and that is your 3600 cost of EAP. The foot wave, car play and the other thing you mentioned doesn’t cost anything when compared to the tech you have in that car. You may prefer footwave and other add ons and others may prefer TikTok and so on. The essentials car makers think consumers need in a car may keep changing depending on range of factors and Tesla has its own interpretation of what their consumers want. Whether it is right or wrong is not what we are discussing that is a choice for you to decide what you think you need in a car.

However, if we go back to the main contentious issue that keeps coming up here again and again -
what I want now (autowipers, auto headlights and user friendly interface) which is not available and then what is the point of buying something which I can’t use for 10 years. Also the highly critical view rightly or wrongly regarding AP and FSD. The car you have today is something like a light bulb in 1800s when everyone was using candles - it was expensive, lots of infrastructure needed and most of the time in the early part of invention didn’t last more than few days and wasn’t powerful than a candle. If we had stopped then for the comfort of reliable candles we wouldn’t be driving a Tesla now. This is just an example!

In this forum lots of us has explained why it is taking so long for the software to be developed and why without billions of miles of road experience it is impossible for Tesla to optimise the software to perfection if at all it is possible. But we’ve been labelled as fanboys and subjected to all sort of abuse. It is unfortunate some of the forum moderators turn a blind eye to these abuse.

The vocal minority neither can understand the technology nor the aspects of self driving and deep learning. I have attached a link here, so before go and post the same views again and again pretending that is true listen to this video and try and understand a bit about the tech your car has which you are oblivious to.

MIT Deep Learning and Artificial Intelligence Lectures | Lex Fridman

A collection of lectures on deep learning, deep reinforcement learning, autonomous vehicles, and artificial intelligence organized by Lex Fridman.

deeplearning.mit.edu

Lex Fridman recently interviewed Elon a very interesting one.

This you?

 

[AutomaticMan]

The vocal minority neither can understand the technology nor the aspects of self driving and deep learning.

Also, do you understand that most people just don’t care? Most people are consumers, they are buying a car for what it can do now, and within the likely period that they own it. They’re not donating to a research project, they’re buying a consumer product. You may get a kick out of knowing that your driving data is being used to enrich the training dataset of a machine learning model, but most people won’t care unless and until that model develops to the point that it offers new features to consumers.

 

[PITA]

I must be weird...

I bought the Tesla Eco-System first... then bought the car at the end of that project.

Solar Panels, Smart Meters, Battery Storage, Solar Heating, Heat Pump Climate Control, Smart Home Scheduling & Integration, internet enabled control from anywhere in the world.

Then having spent a LOT of time (decades) modifying performance cars, turbos, clutches, cooling systems, exhausts, fuel types & oxidizers, suspension, tyres, brake kits, remapping (petrol & diesel), etc etc ... and knowing how much money, and hardship it is to get a reliably fast car that's still domesticated...

I really REALLY appreciate the beautiful genius simplicity of electric performance cars.

I can generate my own electricity... power my home on cheap rate tariffs, store excess for day & night time use, power my car, and have full temperature range climate control in my home.

This electric 'sunpowered' car does 0-60mph in 3.1 seconds and over 160mph, without 2000 critical moving components ready to fail at any moment... and no maintenance to mention.

I'm sorry... but losing sight of all this technology integration over a few software touchscreen options is nuts...

If you had to tap out the Wiper Operation Commands in morse code, I'd still buy this car...

 

[AutomaticMan]

I must be weird...

I bought the Tesla Eco-System first... then bought the car at the end of that project.

Solar Panels, Smart Meters, Battery Storage, Solar Heating, Heat Pump Climate Control, Smart Home Scheduling & Integration, internet enabled control from anywhere in the world.

Then having spent a LOT of time (decades) modifying performance cars, turbos, clutches, cooling systems, exhausts, fuel types & oxidizers, suspension, tyres, brake kits, remapping (petrol & diesel), etc etc ... and knowing how much money, and hardship it is to get a reliably fast car that's still domesticated...

I really REALLY appreciate the beautiful genius simplicity of electric performance cars.

I can generate my own electricity... power my home on cheap rate tariffs, store excess for day & night time use, power my car, and have full temperature range climate control in my home.

This electric 'sunpowered' car does 0-60mph in 3.1 seconds and over 160mph, without 2000 critical moving components ready to fail at any moment... and no maintenance to mention.

I'm sorry... but losing sight of all this technology integration over a few software touchscreen options is nuts...

I just don’t get why it has to be binary? This view that you have to either wholly love everything about the car or wholly hate everything.

I have a Tesla on order so clearly I think it’s a fantastic car and worth spending an enormous amount of money on, but I doubt it’ll be perfect. Probably when I have it I’ll find things I love and things I don’t like and will post about them equally. So long as the things I love outweigh the things I don’t like, I’ll be happy with the car overall, and I expect that will be the case.

Though, it was the same on ID.3 forums. I’d post something positive about the car and get slammed for being a fanboi, then I’d post something negative about the car and get slammed for being a h8er… sometimes all within the same day I guess most people are either 100% all in on their car, or 100% don’t like it. I can usually see good and bad points in any car I own though.

 

[Mrklaw]

You're right, I noticed the auto-wipers were pretty poor when I first test drove an M3 nearly 2 years ago now. I vaguely remember around that time people talking about them being vastly improved by a software update. I've had my car since October 2021 and they haven't improved - in the day they're OK, at night with street lighting they're acceptable but in the dark with no lighting they're really poor. I don't understand why something like this can't be linked to a profile or the car itself - i.e. if I have to manually intervene when the wipers are on auto, increase the sensitivity slightly. Similarly, if I have to turn them off regularly when they're on auto, that would probably suggest the sensitivity needs to be decreased slightly. I would say the same could be done with the auto-high beams too, I never have this on and when I do, my hand hovers over the stalk so I can switch it off as it picks up cars 5 seconds too late.

The annoyance for me is that these are (now basic) features other manufacturers have been getting right for years but don't get addressed in updates. Instead we get boombox and other pointless things. Don't get me wrong, I love the car but I get frustrated when basic issues, that have been complained about in various places for years, don't get addressed in updates.

I don't mind the V11 update so much, I do think the screen now looks more like a cheap Android tablet and there has been some time adjusting to it. But the decision to bury some features in menus is questionable, when I read about it I thought it would be great and much more customisable so that shortcuts could be created. It just seems like some things weren't thought through properly or tested properly.

The big thing about Tesla is regular over the air updates. All the other legacy makers you are often stuck with what you have for the lifetime of the car.

Amazing.

But while we’ve gotten some things through OTA updates, there are clear limitations, often driven by the capability of the core hardware. If there isn’t a rain sensor then you’re stuck with whatever spare CPU capacity they can spare for trying to figure it out with cameras only. It may be lack of attention, so a solution may be possible…eventually. or it may be a fundamental limitation of standard cameras and not solvable without new sensors

 

[DM206433]

The vocal minority neither can understand the technology nor the aspects of self driving and deep learning.

Honestly there's so much wrong with your entire response but this takes the biscuit. Your pretentiousness and presumption is quite amusing.

I'm sorry... but losing sight of all this technology integration over a few software touchscreen options is nuts...

I genuinely don't think anyone is losing sight of anything. I don't think anyone here is doubting that the Tesla is a great car and its a leap forward in so many ways, but at the end of the day it's still a car and primarily it's job is to be the best car it can be - regardless of what it's powered by. That means getting all of the core and essential functionality right.

I don't think any of us here are in any doubt that eventually these things will get better, but it's not wrong of people to expect things to perform at least as well as on the majority of it's competitor's cars.

 

[spdpsba]

I don't think any of us here are in any doubt that eventually these things will get better, but it's not wrong of people to expect things to perform at least as well as on the majority of it's competitor's cars.

This is what is wrong with the vocal minority. No one says you can’t find fault with Tesla. Every car has its own faults. The problem with the vocal minority if you go thro this thread is expecting things like autowipers and auto lights to perform like what they were used to in some other cars. We have been thro the different philosophy of vision based rain sensing and pro cam used for auto lights etc., and why Tesla has gone for the camera instead of sensors and how this integrate with the overall philosophy of AI. we need lots of real world data for the software optimisation that can make these things better than the sensors. You can’t complain that if they are just testing then they shouldn’t be selling it. Without any real time data then there is no innovation we will be using only the sensors.

But this minority group never can understand the simple fact that this is what Tesla is going to stick with and AI, self driving and deep learning is the core of Tesla and why so many are buying it.

 

[PITA]

Honestly there's so much wrong with your entire response but this takes the biscuit. Your pretentiousness and presumption is quite amusing.



I genuinely don't think anyone is losing sight of anything. I don't think anyone here is doubting that the Tesla is a great car and its a leap forward in so many ways, but at the end of the day it's still a car and primarily it's job is to be the best car it can be - regardless of what it's powered by. That means getting all of the core and essential functionality right.

I don't think any of us here are in any doubt that eventually these things will get better, but it's not wrong of people to expect things to perform at least as well as on the majority of it's competitor's cars.

I don't know how accurate my thoughts are on this subject... so take it with a pinch of salt.

But in my opinion, it's the other way around.

Tesla have built the best ELECTRIC vehicle. It's the other car manufacturers that need to catch up.

One of the thoughts I had, was Patent Control. It wouldn't surprise me if a lot of traditional car technology is hidden behind Patents. Like heated windscreens, rain sensors, etc etc.

These legacy Patents no doubt bring a lot of revenue in, if other car manufacturers want (or can afford) to buy into them... maybe exchanging one Patent use, for one of theirs...

I bet Tesla had the door slammed on them... or were not prepared to pay the costs.

So inferior 'camera' based systems were all they had to play with.

A lot of the success in EV Performance is efficiency and range. Tesla excel at this because every single circuit and wire is minimized. For maximum efficiency, just like the early days of Programming Software Code when computer memory was limited.

The other car manufacturing, and technology is very inefficient... but consumers may not realise the impact of all this.

 

[Dilly]

When some of the spin off from single stack finally heads our way, it will be interesting to see what difference, if any it makes to the cameras.
Here in rural Norfolk whether the sun is high or low or it’s pitch dark, every drive has one or more cameras blocked or blinded.
Sometimes it’s down to condensation in the pillar cameras, sometimes not.
I imagine it will end in a visit to the shiny new Norwich SC!

 

[PITA]

Just one other thought that really boils my p..s

Patent Submission on ideas that Companies have no intention to use themselves...

Like that guy who invented super heat resistant paint... but never to use it himself, and the whole benefit was lost to the world in arguments over the cost of license, which nobody would pay. Bloody idiot/genius died broke.

But stopped everybody else as well...

 

[Mrklaw]

This is what is wrong with the vocal minority. No one says you can’t find fault with Tesla. Every car has its own faults. The problem with the vocal minority if you go thro this thread is expecting things like autowipers and auto lights to perform like what they were used to in some other cars. We have been thro the different philosophy of vision based rain sensing and pro cam used for auto lights etc., and why Tesla has gone for the camera instead of sensors and how this integrate with the overall philosophy of AI. we need lots of real world data for the software optimisation that can make these things better than the sensors. You can’t complain that if they are just testing then they shouldn’t be selling it. Without any real time data then there is no innovation we will be using only the sensors.

But this minority group never can understand the simple fact that this is what Tesla is going to stick with and AI, self driving and deep learning is the core of Tesla and why so many are buying it.

Vocal minority thinks the wipers should work like other cars? I would strongly suggest the (very) vocal minority are the ones that are trying to justify this solution. Take a poll of tesla owners or random people in the street - would you expect automatic wipers to work similarly well to other cars that have automatic wipers? I would bet that would be a vast majority would say yes.

I don’t care about the philosophy of rain, I just want it to wipe when it rains. Its a technical discussion and there should be enough data by now for Tesla to know that their camera approach was wrong. Either that or they should admit they have spent almost no effort on it because thats the only other explanation for it being so bad after multiple years to fix it. and that would be quite damning because its about safety.

and the integration into AI systems again - don’t care. what does the AI need to know? it already has those camera feeds for other things, and any dumb, reliable, tested, cheap, simple, rain sensor can feed back to the car that its raining (and how hard) - so it will still have that information. And we’ll have a working wiper system.

I can ignore Tesla’s FSD attempts - until they get it right its irrelevant to me especially outside of the US. But wipers, lights etc are fundamental driving tools, not things to mess around with philosophical discussions.

 

[spdpsba]

Vocal minority thinks the wipers should work like other cars? I would strongly suggest the (very) vocal minority are the ones that are trying to justify this solution. Take a poll of tesla owners or random people in the street - would you expect automatic wipers to work similarly well to other cars that have automatic wipers? I would bet that would be a vast majority would say yes.

I don’t care about the philosophy of rain, I just want it to wipe when it rains. Its a technical discussion and there should be enough data by now for Tesla to know that their camera approach was wrong. Either that or they should admit they have spent almost no effort on it because thats the only other explanation for it being so bad after multiple years to fix it. and that would be quite damning because its about safety.

and the integration into AI systems again - don’t care. what does the AI need to know? it already has those camera feeds for other things, and any dumb, reliable, tested, cheap, simple, rain sensor can feed back to the car that its raining (and how hard) - so it will still have that information. And we’ll have a working wiper system.

I can ignore Tesla’s FSD attempts - until they get it right its irrelevant to me especially outside of the US. But wipers, lights etc are fundamental driving tools, not things to mess around with philosophical discussions.

This discussion is similar to how people argued in 1800s about how electric bulb was unreliable and how ‘candles’ were the fundamental tools and has to work without relying on some external infrastructure like electricity etc to fully develop. History teaches us that those people in fact jailed some of the inventors as they thought they were against rational thinking. Fortunately, Elon wasn’t there in 1800s or otherwise these vocal minority would have done that for not giving their reliable autowipers and headlights!

 

[Neilio]

I fully agree, the vocal minority are so unhappy with their Tesla I just don’t understand why they just can’t sell their cars and buy their favourite mundane German saloons and enjoy autowipers and auto headlights.

Or why don't we wish for our own cars to work correctly? Which is what we are doing. Some of us lease our vehicles too, so are stuck with the defective safety features for a while

 

[AutomaticMan]

Vocal minority thinks the wipers should work like other cars? I would strongly suggest the (very) vocal minority are the ones that are trying to justify this solution. Take a poll of tesla owners or random people in the street - would you expect automatic wipers to work similarly well to other cars that have automatic wipers? I would bet that would be a vast majority would say yes.

I don’t care about the philosophy of rain, I just want it to wipe when it rains. Its a technical discussion and there should be enough data by now for Tesla to know that their camera approach was wrong. Either that or they should admit they have spent almost no effort on it because thats the only other explanation for it being so bad after multiple years to fix it. and that would be quite damning because its about safety.

and the integration into AI systems again - don’t care. what does the AI need to know? it already has those camera feeds for other things, and any dumb, reliable, tested, cheap, simple, rain sensor can feed back to the car that its raining (and how hard) - so it will still have that information. And we’ll have a working wiper system.

I can ignore Tesla’s FSD attempts - until they get it right its irrelevant to me especially outside of the US. But wipers, lights etc are fundamental driving tools, not things to mess around with philosophical discussions.

Have to agree. I'm led to believe by Data Scientists I know that one of the first questions a Data Scientist should ask when taking on a new project is whether AI actually is the best solution to the client's problem, or whether other, simpler solutions would be more efficient and cost-effective. AI clearly is the answer to self-driving as there's no other existing technology that can do that. Is it the answer to rain sensing? I would imagine that a camera-based system is always going to struggle a bit detecting rain intensity in low light - indeed, humans don't find it that easy to do, which is why we often rely on other 'sensors' (sticking our hand out the door to see if it gets wet) sometimes in these conditions.

Saying that for some things that vision-based systems aren't suited to, where better technologies already exist, Tesla should use the existing better technologies if they are relatively cheap to procure doesn't mean you're a vision-based system h8er overall. The fact that Tesla is a market leader in these technologies is one of the selling points of the car, and I'm very interested to see how it develops for driving autonomy purposes. But why use it for rain sensing if even the best case scenario, with many years, and much more training data, is that it becomes as good as - but no better than - existing, simpler systems for rain sensing?

 

[GeorgeSymonds]

This is what is wrong with the vocal minority. No one says you can’t find fault with Tesla. Every car has its own faults. The problem with the vocal minority if you go thro this thread is expecting things like autowipers and auto lights to perform like what they were used to in some other cars. We have been thro the different philosophy of vision based rain sensing and pro cam used for auto lights etc., and why Tesla has gone for the camera instead of sensors and how this integrate with the overall philosophy of AI. we need lots of real world data for the software optimisation that can make these things better than the sensors. You can’t complain that if they are just testing then they shouldn’t be selling it. Without any real time data then there is no innovation we will be using only the sensors.

But this minority group never can understand the simple fact that this is what Tesla is going to stick with and AI, self driving and deep learning is the core of Tesla and why so many are buying it.

A simple look at this thread will tell you the ‘minority’ is yours and PITAs view

You argue for Tesla being a better technology platform, it is generally, but the execution in features today, and the development lifecycle they use is leaving something to be desired. Buggy, poor regression testing, fails at times with international localisation, and all coupled with a distinct feeling it’s about the games and entertainment and not about driving.

It’s an approach that also exposes the weakness of the minimum viable product where hardware sensors and inputs are required. Sentry is wasteful on energy because there’s no low power mode architecture, dashcam sometimes misses stuff because writing to usb is an afterthought.

Take the wipers, sure you need lots of data for the AI to learn but while you’re going through that process, and it’s been over 4 years now, every single one of the cars they’ve delivered has had poor wiper performance. Does the end justify the means? Could they not have built cars with the 50p rain sensor as well? It would have been an extra input to help train the model, they’d have learnt better and quicker AND the performance could have been at least as good as that on AP1 cars which was fine.

What we’re discussing is ‘crossing the chasm’, at the risk of offending you with words of more than 2 syllables as you”ve complained about before. New technology approaches struggle to transition from early adopters and innovator buyers to the early majority because the audiences value different things. You value the underlying approach and see the long term benefits and how Tesla try and do things, many others don’t give a damn, and ‘early majority’ is the name given to this group of people which gives a clue to the relative size, they live in the present and care more about performance and features now, today, when they next get in the car. They still appreciate the broader approach but are less forgiving of the associated failings when it doesn’t deliver in the moment.

A classic example of why we disagree and what you’re failing to accept, take the foot wave to open the boot. Yes it’s cheap to implement compared to the FSD computer, yes it’s a dumb proximity sensor that serves one purpose in life which is to open the boot, but you know what, when you have hands full of shopping, it’s raining and your car is parked in a puddle, the ability to open the boot with a wave of your foot is every bit as useful, if not more so, than the car recommending a lane change on the motorway or offering sonic the hedgehog,, and Tesla can’t do it, and probably never will.

 

[Jason71]

This discussion is similar to how people argued in 1800s about how electric bulb was unreliable and how ‘candles’ were the fundamental tools and has to work without relying on some external infrastructure like electricity etc to fully develop. History teaches us that those people in fact jailed some of the inventors as they thought they were against rational thinking. Fortunately, Elon wasn’t there in 1800s or otherwise these vocal minority would have done that for not giving their reliable autowipers and headlights!

I think I can afford the inevitable downvote from spdpsba so here I go....
Is it though?
I don't recall reading lightbulbs got worse with each iteration.
This thread is supposed to be about UI11 and the more I use it the less I like it so from my point of view as a current driver it is a step backwards.
None of the new features really do anything for me.
The blind spot mirror is a nice touch but even that is in the wrong place too low down and behind my hand when I indicate. #RHDlivesMatter
Stuff I like to use while driving like a trip meter is hidden away but I can have a one click shortcut to the arcade
but my biggest issue is that I am over 50 and the text on the screen keeps getting smaller. I can read a number plate on the other side of the planet without glasses but I am now struggling to read warning messages, proof read dictated sms etc on the massive screen in my car. Something I could do two weeks ago.

Sure when it drives itself none of this will matter but until then can we have someone over the age of 35 on the UI team, from a country that drives on the left please and an interface that is optimised for a human driving.