V2G with PG&E, Tesla, and Ossiaco?

[h2ofun]

I5 has a lot. For me here in the Bay Area going to LA there are Patterson, San Nella, Firebaugh, Kettleman City, Buttonwillow, Bakersfield, Grapevine, Santa Clarita. And down in the LA Basin every town seems to have a lot. Such as Burbank, Glendale, Pasadena on the 210; LA, Bell Gardens down the 5 and .... Most of these are the 150kW V3 fast DC chargers and co-located with food and some with shopping. Most have 12 or more stalls, with Kettleman have 40 or so and Bakersfield (it is at the outlet malls at the bottom of the Grapevine) having 20. The car will show you how many free stalls there are at any moment so you can avoid waits. You can go to Supercharger | Tesla to see more Supercharger locations. There are also planning site like a A Better Routeplanner that can plan stops.

Again, thats great. I need the car to hold 7 people and all the luggage for a week. Plus the kid strollers Can you solve this issue?

 

[jboy210]

Again, thats great. I need the car to hold 7 people and all the luggage for a week. Plus the kid strollers Can you solve this issue?

The X comes has 7 seat version. I have the 5 seat version and there is room to put a 6-foot tall bookcase behind me when I fold down the rear seats. I understand the 7 seater is the same size. There is also under rear storage where a gas tank would be and since no motor a frunk where the motor would be that hold a few small suitcases. I gather from the posting in the X forum many X buyers are moving from minivans.

If you are interested in more information you should post a question in the X forum. Also, for more info on Superchargers post in California Supercharger locations

I think I have dragged this conversation way off-topic. Sorry everyone!

 

[Earl]

For me, the EV is not even close to what my family needs.

Sorry for way off topic. Perhaps an EV is not exactly what you need but some options are definitely close.

I need my mini van that can hold 7 people plus luggage for my 500 mile drive to Disneyland, without having to stop for fuel. The day a non gas car can offer this at a fair price, I will look.

This is a bit heavily constrained. I don't know of any mini van that can actually go 500 miles carrying 7 people plus luggage without refueling so it will be hard for an EV to compete with any fictitious vehicle. Also, stopping for gas once in 500 miles really isn't that terrible.
You also claim to be able to get in and out of a bathroom in 5 minutes: I'd like to see you do that with 7 people if any are under 12 or over 40.
As far as "I will look": It sounds like you already are looking Best of luck with your search!
- The Model X can do this today with one ~20 minute charging stop each way. The 20 minutes charging each way is still less than the ~15 minutes X 3 that getting gas would take for a fictitious 500 mile ICE. Its price is fair but, clearly a lot higher than commodity mini vans today.
- The Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid Minivan might be worth looking at as well (if you drive slowly enough to get 500 miles of range and you've got the nerve to arrive at Mickey's Parking garage on fumes with 7 people plus luggage), it can probably do exactly what you "need" and you won't have to burn any gas on those days when you don't drive more than 30 miles. You'll have to gas up in Anaheim and before and after your trip, of course. To steer this sort of back on topic; you might be able to run an inverter directly off the 12-volt starter battery to run essential loads (refrigerator) in an outage and use the ICE as a generator.
- The Model Y can do it with a roof box and maybe a hitch rack but you'll take a range hit that will probably require a 40 minute charging/bathroom/lunch stop each direction. Note that you can charge on Level 2 while at Disneyland, obviating your need to fill up in Anaheim. You also can charge at home, thus saving you a 15 minute trip at either end to fill up. Its about the same cost as a similarly appointed mini van.
Basically, if you relax one or 2 of your criteria, EVs will work today, even for your few-times-per-year Disney adventure.

 

[h2ofun]

Sorry for way off topic. Perhaps an EV is not exactly what you need but some options are definitely close.


This is a bit heavily constrained. I don't know of any mini van that can actually go 500 miles carrying 7 people plus luggage without refueling so it will be hard for an EV to compete with any fictitious vehicle. Also, stopping for gas once in 500 miles really isn't that terrible.
You also claim to be able to get in and out of a bathroom in 5 minutes: I'd like to see you do that with 7 people if any are under 12 or over 40.
As far as "I will look": It sounds like you already are looking Best of luck with your search!
- The Model X can do this today with one ~20 minute charging stop each way. The 20 minutes charging each way is still less than the ~15 minutes X 3 that getting gas would take for a fictitious 500 mile ICE. Its price is fair but, clearly a lot higher than commodity mini vans today.
- The Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid Minivan might be worth looking at as well (if you drive slowly enough to get 500 miles of range and you've got the nerve to arrive at Mickey's Parking garage on fumes with 7 people plus luggage), it can probably do exactly what you "need" and you won't have to burn any gas on those days when you don't drive more than 30 miles. You'll have to gas up in Anaheim and before and after your trip, of course. To steer this sort of back on topic; you might be able to run an inverter directly off the 12-volt starter battery to run essential loads (refrigerator) in an outage and use the ICE as a generator.
- The Model Y can do it with a roof box and maybe a hitch rack but you'll take a range hit that will probably require a 40 minute charging/bathroom/lunch stop each direction. Note that you can charge on Level 2 while at Disneyland, obviating your need to fill up in Anaheim. You also can charge at home, thus saving you a 15 minute trip at either end to fill up. Its about the same cost as a similarly appointed mini van.
Basically, if you relax one or 2 of your criteria, EVs will work today, even for your few-times-per-year Disney adventure.

Thanks, but for me, and most of the US, these limitations, no matter how minor folks who own EV's think they are, I have zero interest. Most products in life if they fit a market need at the right price and features, the majority will flock. Cell phones existed way before the first apple phone. But they were too heavy, costly, etc. We know what happened when someone brought to market, without a gov mandate, a product that appealed to the masses. Some replacement for ICE will come along. But will it be electric? Time will tell.

 

[Earl]

Thanks, but for me, and most of the US, these limitations, no matter how minor folks who own EV's think they are, I have zero interest. Most products in life if they fit a market need at the right price and features, the majority will flock. Cell phones existed way before the first apple phone. But they were too heavy, costly, etc. We know what happened when someone brought to market, without a gov mandate, a product that appealed to the masses. Some replacement for ICE will come along. But will it be electric? Time will tell.

Note that I've driven from Norfolk, VA to LA, CA in 3 days in a Model 3. There were days of over 1100 miles. That's about as fast as one can reasonably drive the trip in an ICE. The paradigm for an EV is different - you spend your time doing different things. Overall, I find EVs more convenient today. This was not true even 5 years ago. Times are changing fast.
I don't see any other viable alternatives to ICE on the horizon - and I've been looking for over 40 years.
Don't worry, though. If you're not ready to take the plunge yet, your beloved mini van will come out in a pure EV eventually. What about the Chrysler plug-in Hybrid mini van though?
Otherwise, you'll keep having to waste your time and money buying gas. I make my own electricity - it falls from the sky every day.

 

[Merrill]

I spent my career in the automotive business and grew up getting greasy working on my parents cars with my dad. I was not interested in an EV because at the time they were ugly and could not go very far, along came the Model S. Looks good and goes at least 200 miles back in 2012, took a test drive and that was that. No maintenance, buying gas no noise and runs off the sun. Would never go back to an ICE, and at one time made my living on them.

 

[papab]

Not disagreeing. Owning 2 EVs and using Powerwalls daily to drive my costs down it's an interesting prospect. But when I think about I wonder what is needed.

The car battery is DC, so you would need to convert that to A/C at some point. Current Tesla connectors are limited to around 10kW AC. Would that be enough to be useful in a house?

10 kW would be plenty for emergency backup

Would I need to install a critical loads panel with less than 10kW?

You could, it would be nice, but not required. The primary goal is to keep the food cold or frozen.

The current AC only Tesla HPWC is around $500 plus installation, what would something with bi-direction capability cost? Where does the DC to AC converter live? What does it add to the costs?

My thought is that we connect to the high voltage battery. The DC to AC inverter would be on the wall in the garage close to the car.

We know people have asked Elon for V2H for years and he has been pretty cool to this idea. His response is usually "that is what a Powerwall is for". Perhaps because of the wear on the car's warranted battery lifespan?

This is a real concern. It they implemented something for V2H, they could keep track of the V2H cycles, or kWh, & adjust the warranty for it. I wouldn't use my EV battery for V2G unless I was appropriately compensated for it, but emergency V2H would be really nice

Anyway, I have thought about this for years since I first hear about EVs. But, its the details that give me pause.

 

[jboy210]

I spent my career in the automotive business and grew up getting greasy working on my parents cars with my dad. I was not interested in an EV because at the time they were ugly and could not go very far, along came the Model S. Looks good and goes at least 200 miles back in 2012, took a test drive and that was that. No maintenance, buying gas no noise and runs off the sun. Would never go back to an ICE, and at one time made my living on them.

Since were are off track.

I agree. I had a similar upbringing. If it had an IC engine we rode or drove it from childhood. Minibikes, motorcycles, sprint cars, hardtop racers, boats, etc. Raced motocross on Maico, Yamaha, Huskies, and anything else I could ride. It is what you get when you are the child of a man who lied about how old he was to get his first job at 15 as a mechanic in a Ford dealership. And then chopped his first Ford couple they let him rebuild at the dealership. And then built a family auto service my brother still runs today. We grew up with gas fumes in our lungs and grease under our fingernails.

But, now. No way I would own an ICE. Too slow, too noisy, too 1900s tech. My 6,000+ pound GVW Tesla Model X does 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and I can't wait to get the 2021 X which will be under 4 seconds. My first car, Bose 302 Mustang, did it in 7 seconds, which was fast then. And my Mustang and subsequent BMWs, made way too much noise, and spent far too much time shifting gears to stay in the IC engine's sweet spot. Now I can get to high speed silently and before even the shortest on-ramp runs out. Usually, I have to lift off when getting on the freeway to avoid running over ICE vehicles. And all without any noise. Technology is wonderful and speed is king!

 

[jboy210]

10 kW would be plenty for emergency backup

You could, it would be nice, but not required. The primary goal is to keep the food cold or frozen.

How about staying warm? My daughter lives in Austin and just went through their freeze. Surprisingly for a state with so much gas and oil, many homes in Texas use electricity for heating via heat pumps which suck up a lot of power when it gets down to single digits. I am sure some people here that heat with heat pumps can comment on their power requirements. My daughter had gas, but no electricity so could stay warm with her 3 fireplaces. Her neighbors from homes without fireplaces, but electric heating, camped out in my daughter's living and family rooms.

Keeping food frozen was not an issue. Just put it outside in an open ice chest!! But I get your point. But even then a Powerwall has a max continuous output of 5 kWh, so to heat a house with a heat pump and run the fridge or two, lights, etc. might require 2 or more. And with a total capacity of 13.5 kWh if providing 5 kWh a single PW is drained in 2.3 hours. We have 2 PWs and long term are thinking about a 3rd, or swapping a PW2 for a PW3 if they come with higher capacity.

 

[Merrill]

Since were are off track.

I agree. I had a similar upbringing. If it had an IC engine we rode or drove it from childhood. Minibikes, motorcycles, sprint cars, hardtop racers, boats, etc. Raced motocross on Maico, Yamaha, Huskies, and anything else I could ride. It is what you get when you are the child of a man who lied about how old he was to get his first job at 15 as a mechanic in a Ford dealership. And then chopped his first Ford couple they let him rebuild at the dealership. And then built a family auto service my brother still runs today. We grew up with gas fumes in our lungs and grease under our fingernails.

But, now. No way I would own an ICE. Too slow, too noisy, too 1900s tech. My 6,000+ pound GVW Tesla Model X does 0-60 in under 5 seconds, and I can't wait to get the 2021 X which will be under 4 seconds. My first car, Bose 302 Mustang, did it in 7 seconds, which was fast then. And my Mustang and subsequent BMWs, made way too much noise, and spent far too much time shifting gears to stay in the IC engine's sweet spot. Now I can get to high speed silently and before even the shortest on-ramp runs out. Usually, I have to lift off when getting on the freeway to avoid running over ICE vehicles. And all without any noise. Technology is wonderful and speed is king!

Yes my dad and uncle owned Larkspur Garage in the late 40’s until mid 60’s all our cars were chopped from two cars, we had a 48 Cadillac Fleetwood big doors on that tank. When we went on a trip may dad brought tools and parts and we spent most of our vacations fixing something, did not make my mom very happy.

 

[h2ofun]

How about staying warm? My daughter lives in Austin and just went through their freeze. Surprisingly for a state with so much gas and oil, many homes in Texas use electricity for heating via heat pumps which suck up a lot of power when it gets down to single digits. I am sure some people here that heat with heat pumps can comment on their power requirements. My daughter had gas, but no electricity so could stay warm with her 3 fireplaces. Her neighbors from homes without fireplaces, but electric heating, camped out in my daughter's living and family rooms.

Keeping food frozen was not an issue. Just put it outside in an open ice chest!! But I get your point. But even then a Powerwall has a max continuous output of 5 kWh, so to heat a house with a heat pump and run the fridge or two, lights, etc. might require 2 or more. And with a total capacity of 13.5 kWh if providing 5 kWh a single PW is drained in 2.3 hours. We have 2 PWs and long term are thinking about a 3rd, or swapping a PW2 for a PW3 if they come with higher capacity.

I have 3 PW's just for my heating cooling mini splits. 2 PW's for the house. So if we have sun, I can run the house full tilt for as long as I want.

 

[papab]

How about staying warm? My daughter lives in Austin and just went through their freeze. Surprisingly for a state with so much gas and oil, many homes in Texas use electricity for heating via heat pumps which suck up a lot of power when it gets down to single digits. I am sure some people here that heat with heat pumps can comment on their power requirements. My daughter had gas, but no electricity so could stay warm with her 3 fireplaces. Her neighbors from homes without fireplaces, but electric heating, camped out in my daughter's living and family rooms.

Keeping food frozen was not an issue. Just put it outside in an open ice chest!! But I get your point. But even then a Powerwall has a max continuous output of 5 kWh, so to heat a house with a heat pump and run the fridge or two, lights, etc. might require 2 or more. And with a total capacity of 13.5 kWh if providing 5 kWh a single PW is drained in 2.3 hours. We have 2 PWs and long term are thinking about a 3rd, or swapping a PW2 for a PW3 if they come with higher capacity.

10kw would be enough to run my heat pump and blower, as well as the refer & freezer. Connecting the 220V heat pump would obviously be more complicated than an extension cord. A 75 kWh EV battery would last a couple of days in very cold weather.

 

[jboy210]

10kw would be enough to run my heat pump and blower, as well as the refer & freezer. Connecting the 220V heat pump would obviously be more complicated than an extension cord. A 75 kWh EV battery would last a couple of days in very cold weather.

On the heat pump power consumption, I was concerned about the electric restance heater that some of them have for sub-freezing temps like the Austin scenario. Those use quite a bit of power. And sure the car battery would last, but if Elon does not think you need it, or cancels the car battery warranty .....

 

[cali8484]

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Looks like Musk is now for Tesla V2H ...

 

[iPlug]

...I am sure some people here that heat with heat pumps can comment on their power requirements...

On the heat pump power consumption, I was concerned about the electric restance heater that some of them have for sub-freezing temps like the Austin scenario. Those use quite a bit of power. And sure the car battery would last, but if Elon does not think you need it, or cancels the car battery warranty .....

Here in non-alpine Northern CA with an efficient heat pump, the usual power draw is not an issue. Always <2kW. However, the de-ice/defrost cycle part when the resistance heating comes on for up to a few minutes up to a few winter mornings around dawn time - this is when power consumption can go up briefly ~4x+.

 

[h2ofun]

10kw would be enough to run my heat pump and blower, as well as the refer & freezer. Connecting the 220V heat pump would obviously be more complicated than an extension cord. A 75 kWh EV battery would last a couple of days in very cold weather

Here in non-alpine Northern CA with an efficient heat pump, the usual power draw is not an issue. Always <2kW. However, the de-ice/defrost cycle part when the resistance heating comes on for up to a few minutes up to a few winter mornings around dawn time - this is when power consumption can go up briefly ~4x+.

What type of heat pump? How many heads? How many compressors?

 

[iPlug]

What type of heat pump? How many heads? How many compressors?

See sig; Carrier central ducted variable (Infinity Greenspeed). 4-ton.

 

[h2ofun]

See sig; Carrier central ducted variable (Infinity Greenspeed). 4-ton.

I have mini splits in my house. 10 heads and 3 compressors. If I were to turn them all on at once, I could watch the meter spin. With 5 heads on and 2 compressors, set at 64 degrees, I would use between 2 and 3 kwh per hour. It adds up fast when one in winter is not making any real solar and batteries would be dead

 

[iPlug]

IIRC, so far the coldest winter day since we have had the unit in 2018, heat set at 69-71ºF and heat pump continuously running, heat pump used ~35 kWh for that 24hr.

 

[jboy210]

Here in non-alpine Northern CA with an efficient heat pump, the usual power draw is not an issue. Always <2kW. However, the de-ice/defrost cycle part when the resistance heating comes on for up to a few minutes up to a few winter mornings around dawn time - this is when power consumption can go up briefly ~4x+.

How would it work in the Austin scenario, say 5-10F for a day or three?

We are looking at buying an investment property there and wondering if the type of heating should be a consideration.