V3 Supercharging Profiles for Model 3

[Zoomit]

Second attempt with lower SOC and a warmer battery @ Fremont V3 Charger this morning.

@Zoomit Another data point for you! I joined the 250 Club.

Ambient outside temp: 65F
4:18am - 4:52am
Warm-up: 1 hour 40 mins - 100 miles
Attempt 1 failed on stall 4 (arrived with less than 1% but charger topped out at 87kW, charged to 6%). Left to launch and regen to drain battery to 2% and keep the battery warm.
Attempt 2 successful on stall 2.
2017 Model 3 LR - Software Version: 2019.20.2.1 5659e07
Total Charge Session: 34 mins

Battery highlights
2% - 10 miles - 0 mins (126 kW)
5% - 16 miles - 1 min (250 kW)
20% - 62 miles - 4 mins (250 kW)
21% - 65 miles - 4.5 mins (Taper from peak starts - 248 kW)
30% - 92 miles - 6 mins (218 kW)
40% - 123 miles - 8.5 mins (179 kW)
50% - 153 miles - 11 mins (142 kW)
60% - 184 miles - 14.5 mins (108 kW)
70% - 213 miles - 19 mins (87 kW)
80% - 245 miles - 24.5 mins (56 kW)
90% - 275 miles - 34 mins (36 kW)

Videos are uploading. Will post soon!

Thank you for a great dataset! And thank you for your early morning efforts. It appears to have paid off.

This is the first publically reported V3 charging session that hit 250kW since the V3 demo in March, but it's also the first ever to show the taper starting at 21%. The one previous example from privaterbok tapered at 17%. This is also the first to show a linear taper all the way from 250kW.

Folks--look at those times. 2-80% in 24.5 minutes. 5-50%, gaining 137 miles, in 10 minutes; averaging 822 mi/hr for half the battery.

I'll wait for the video to plot it all and upload a new graph.

Edit: Looks like your 100% range is reported as 306 mi, not 325 mi, so the software still has the bug unless you think your battery has really lost 6% capacity.

 

[Dag]

Thank you for a great dataset! And thank you for your early morning efforts. It appears to have paid off.

This is the first publically reported V3 charging session that hit 250kW since the V3 demo in March, but it's also the first ever to show the taper starting at 21%. The one previous example from privaterbok tapered at 17%. This is also the first to show a linear taper all the way from 250kW.

Folks--look at those times. 2-80% in 24.5 minutes. 5-50%, gaining 137 miles, in 10 minutes; averaging 822 mi/hr for half the battery.

I'll wait for the video to plot it all and upload a new graph.

Edit: Looks like your 100% range is reported as 306 mi, not 325 mi, so the software still has the bug unless you think your battery has really lost 6% capacity.

Man Youtube upload is so slow.
Correct my max range is ~306 miles. I've never seen the "unlock" up to 325, my first range charge a few days after picking up the car yielded 315 but I've never seen that since (Jan 2018). My charging is 95% urban/supercharger so all in all I think its overall about were it should be. Tesla has told me to "charge on a slower output to better balance the battery and accurately show max charge".

This will probably be the last V3 test I do unless Tesla starts implementing them on road trip routes. To bad they are not rolling out faster, planned Idaho and Yellowstone trips soon, but I'm happy with the improvements to V2.

 

[Zoomit]

My charging is 95% urban/supercharger so all in all I think its overall about were it should be.

I'm not sure how much, if at all, battery degradation would affect the charging profiles. If anything, Tesla might nerf the charging profiles like they did with the S/X90 packs but that doesn't appear to be happening to your car. How many miles does it have?

In the end, it's the reported SoC% that matters and that shouldn't be affected by an error in the rated miles indication.

 

[Dag]

How many miles does it have?

Just under 30k.
I was a less than 10k a year kinda a person but man this car. You just want to drive it everywhere.

 

[Zoomit]

Just under 30k.
I was a less than 10k a year kinda a person but man this car. You just want to drive it everywhere.

So it's got about 100 cycles on the battery with aggressive charge rates. It will have degraded some; certainly a few % is very reasonable though I wouldn't expect 6%.

 

[Dag]

Videos deleted.
Youtube didn't like a few settings in the exported videos. Going to re-upload in a few.

 

[darth_vad3r]

This is the first publically reported V3 charging session that hit 250kW since the V3 demo in March, but it's also the first ever to show the taper starting at 21%. The one previous example from privaterbok tapered at 17%.

From the video, I would guess the car started the taper at near 20.0%, since when the car first shows “21%” it has just hit 20.5%, and when the kW first shows “249 kW” it has just dropped below 249.5, so it seems likely to have started tapering (undetectably via the zero decimal place kW display) just before we see it ... at 20.0%?

I can’t tell for sure from the mph display because it’s a bit blurry and those numbers were already flickering a bit anyways. Maybe you can see the first drop to a new lower mph while the car still shows “20”?

Guessing this later taper has to do with cooler temps at 4am

 

[Dag]

Videos deleted.
Youtube didn't like a few settings in the exported videos. Going to re-upload in a few.

Scratch that, they are just taking forever to process to full 1080p. Apologizes

Timelapse

Full Video

 

[Big Earl]

While we wait for @Zoomit to crunch the numbers, here's a quick and dirty chart of my V2 session compared to @Dag's V3 session. This is pretty huge!

 

[darth_vad3r]

From the video, I would guess the car started the taper at near 20.0%, since when the car first shows “21%” it has just hit 20.5%, and when the kW first shows “249 kW” it has just dropped below 249.5, so it seems likely to have started tapering (undetectably via the zero decimal place kW display) just before we see it ... at 20.0%?

I can’t tell for sure from the mph display because it’s a bit blurry and those numbers were already flickering a bit anyways. Maybe you can see the first drop to a new lower mph while the car still shows “20”?

Took a closer look at video... you can also notice the separate transitions from 19 to 20% and from “yellow” battery to “green”, and then after that to 21%.

19% yellow -> 20% yellow -> 20% green -> 21%

I think the first flicker from 250 to 249kW happens while in the 20% green phase. In fact, simultaneously as when the battery turns green (and still 20%). It still flickers back to 250-249-250-249 into the 21%, but I think that first flicker is the hint that it’s dropped from being pinned at 250.0 and is around 249.5 already.

My assumption is that “yellow” means <20% or possibly <=20%. So...
“20% yellow” is 19.50 - 19.99%
“20% green” is 20.00 - 20.49%
“21% green” is 20.50% ...

 

[EV-Tech Exp]

This is a really great, informative thread. A fantastic example of what makes this forum and the Tesla community so awesome!

 

[Zoomit]

Thanks again @Dag for the video. It's great to see a steady 250kW into the battery for 3 minutes at 1068 mi/hr as predicted. That's 53 rated miles in 3 minutes. It charged 85 miles in 5 minutes, from 6% to 32%, which exceeds Tesla's "up to 75 mi in 5 minutes" claim from the V3 Blog post.

I filtered out many of the charge sessions from the graph and have only included:

• Dag's near-ideal V3 session
• Dag's not ideal V3 session
• Randy's not ideal V3 session
• u/privaterbok's V3 Demo session
• u/JOkers-LucaOZ's 350kW 500A CCS session
• Big Earl's and u/Wugz's near-ideal V2 sessions

I also included my prediction for what could be an ideal V3 charging profile under very optimal conditions. This would include a heated battery and a cold-soaked V3 Supercharger combined with low (<50°F, <10°C) ambient temperatures and likely no solar heating. I don't know if this is really possible. It would certainly define a corner case at least in the summer. It might be more typical during winter long-distance driving.

I'll note that all three V3 sessions and all four "350kW" 500A CCS sessions (only one shown) had a "dip" at 60% SoC that isn't seen in the V2 sessions. I think we'll need some more V3 sessions, maybe that start at a higher SoC, to fully understand what's going on there.

 

[darth_vad3r]

I wonder if we would we see higher correlation / overlap in profiles if we charted against rated miles of range instead of %. I.e. is the profile actually based on % of original capacity and we see differences based on differing states of people’s packs?

Is the optimistic V3 taper at 24% based on back tracing JOker’s 350kW taper?

Another possibility ... do the non-Tesla chargers take longer to respond to the car’s requests to tweak the voltage/amperage, possibly shifting those profiles to the right on the chart?

 

[rrolsbe]

Thanks! Maybe you already posted this graph. I would have not of though that any charge rate above about 27KWH is actually less costly than paying a fixed rate per KWH.

Thanks Again!
Regards, Ron

You mean like this?

Electrify America Fast Chargers - Huh?

As you can see, it is most cost effective to charge to 50-60% and move on to the next one, avoiding urban superchargers and states that charge by the kWh.

Big Earl

This chart is based on the new V2 supercharger charging profile. Interesting that at charge rates higher than 120KW it actually appears to be cheaper than my charging cost at my home (not by much); however, when the charge power drops below 120KW it would be more expensive. This same chart using the new V3 Supercharger data should make the overall charging session somewhat cheaper than a V2 session would be. I would not drive to a V3 supercharger in lieu of charging at home to take advantage of any $ savings. Hammering the traction battery at a V3 Supercharger on a regular basic would probably not be good. If people with free Supercharging charge frequently at a V3 Supercharger (because there is no cost), it will probably have an affect on battery longevity.

Thanks to all the forum thread posters for their data and insight!
Regards, Ron

 

[Zoomit]

I wonder if we would we see higher correlation / overlap in profiles if we charted against rated miles of range instead of %. I.e. is the profile actually based on % of original capacity and we see differences based on differing states of people’s packs?

Is the optimistic V3 taper at 24% based on back tracing JOker’s 350kW taper?

Another possibility ... do the non-Tesla chargers take longer to respond to the car’s requests to tweak the voltage/amperage, possibly shifting those profiles to the right on the chart?

Using rated miles to collect data would provide more resolution for SoC but is dependent on what the cars says is full range. Unfortunately this is not reliable, because of the indication bug that started in March(?). The cars don't confidently show 310 or 325 miles with no degradation. My full range stepped down from 310 to 303 a few months ago until last week when it explicitly jumped back up to 308, with no change in charging habit or firmware.

Yes, the optimistic taper at 24% is based on a linear extrapolation from the 350kW taper. The CCS and V3 examples have a parallel taper so I'm speculating that lower ambient temps will make the car's heat exchanger more efficient and keep the battery cooler for longer. I definitely don't think the V3 Supercharger hit a thermal limit after 3 minutes of 250kW charging. To be a viable long-term design, the V3 stalls need to be more robust than that, especially after Dag's easy 65F cold-soaked morning conditions. So I think the car's battery needs to be just warm enough (aka Goldilocks temp) to ramp up to 250kW and the air cool enough to exchange out the battery IR heat quickly. More V3 datasets that start higher than 20% will help us understand what's going on here.

I don't think the CCS chargers would be slower to react to requested amperage from the car. Charger responsiveness is usually very fast. Interesting idea though!

 

[darth_vad3r]

Using rated miles to collect data would provide more resolution for SoC but is dependent on what the cars says is full range

Right, I wasn’t actually pointing it out for the added resolution, but the possibility that one person’s profile showing a taper at “X%” looks different than another person’s taper at “X+1%”, and another person’s at “X-1%”, say ... but if we looked at miles or km would we notice they are actually all tapering at the same Y miles?

I admit this is complicated by the fact that there may be bugs in the miles display ... but we do also know that one person’s X% can be a different kWh than another person’s X% (given same model car) due to degradation, imbalance, or whatever ... and I don’t think we know for certain if the car’s profiles are based on “%” or on kWh content. Is the car saying taper at 15kWh on a 75kWh model? Is it saying taper at “20%” no matter what 100% is? Perhaps the best illustration of this would be the SR ... although that’s a bit of a more special case. 20% on the display is way off 20% of actual factory capacity.

So I was just wondering if we plotted every profile against kWh instead of SoC% would they coincide more closely. Since we can’t see kWh, “miles” or “km” is our next best gauge.

It’s too bad you can’t see % and km at the same time while charging.

 

[Zoomit]

I don’t think we know for certain if the car’s profiles are based on “%” or on kWh content

Agreed--no idea. It could also be based on usable SoC not indicated SoC. There're lots of different ways they could code it.

 

[Zoomit]

I just listened to the Ride The Lightning podcast #203 (@ryanjm) and Ryan mentioned near the end that the V3 A/B stalls at Fremont were paired last weekend when he went to test them and got low power. He heard this from the store manager who talked to someone "in the back". I don't know if they are still paired but this is something to consider if you're going to Fremont and want to see 250kW.

Also, it's interesting to know that they have an architecture that allows them to be paired. Then again, being able to share power among two stalls is appropriate for a robust design.

 

[EfficientWatts]

Ok this is not an 100% ideal one (warm up message still present, ~27.4 mile drive to SC after sitting in garage for 4 hours or so, 32 C ambient), 50% SOC start. It does show the work Tesla has done to make even the non-ideal scenario work much better than before. (I think would remember not breaking 100kW if starting 50% SOC in the past). Kind of simulates someone stopping off at a SC to/from work. LR AWD.

SOC    kW
50    112
51    115
52    113
53    110
54    108
55    106
56    104
57    102
58    101
59    99
60    98
61    97
62    94
63    93
64    92
65    91
66    90
67    88
68    87
69    86
70    84
71    82
72    79
73    76
74    72
75    68
76    65
77    61
78    59
79    57
80    54
81    51
82    49
83    47
84    45
85    42
86    39
87    35
88    36
89    32
90    31

I have video proof but it cut off at 84% SOC because my phone camera overheated and I accidentally showed some private info, so would have to edit it to post.

 

[Zoomit]

Ok this is not an 100% ideal one (warm up message still present, ~27.4 mile drive to SC after sitting in garage for 4 hours or so, 32 C ambient), 50% SOC start. It does show the work Tesla has done to make even the non-ideal scenario work much better than before. (I think would remember not breaking 100kW if starting 50% SOC in the past). Kind of simulates someone stopping off at a SC to/from work. LR AWD.

SOC    kW
50    112
51    115
52    113
53    110
54    108
55    106
56    104
57    102
58    101
59    99
60    98
61    97
62    94
63    93
64    92
65    91
66    90
67    88
68    87
69    86
70    84
71    82
72    79
73    76
74    72
75    68
76    65
77    61
78    59
79    57
80    54
81    51
82    49
83    47
84    45
85    42
86    39
87    35
88    36
89    32
90    31

I have video proof but it cut off at 84% SOC because my phone camera overheated and I accidentally showed some private info, so would have to edit it to post.

Thanks for posting! I did a similar session early this morning. I started at about 45% but it was only charging at 115kW, whereas I was hoping to see 145+. I stopped it at 56% and 103kW, right in line with yours. This was after driving a 21C/70F "cold"-soaked battery for 30min to the SC using ORBW. Clearly that wasn't long enough to warm the battery. The Supercharger stall was also cold/unused so I know it wasn't the limiting factor.

P.S. Video proof not necessary just helpful.