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Veganism/Leather etc. out of Market Action

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Diet is a very long term problem. All life on this Earth evolved to eat lesser life. Watch Wild Kingdom sometime; it's a show about mass murder for food. We can work on it, but realistically, it will take a very long time to change. Personally, I hope in time that technology can help improve the situation by providing better meat alternatives (including, but not limited to, lab grown meat).

Switching to renewables and EVs is simple by comparison.
 
Diet is a very long term problem. All life on this Earth evolved to eat lesser life. Watch Wild Kingdom sometime; it's a show about mass murder for food. We can work on it, but realistically, it will take a very long time to change. Personally, I hope in time that technology can help improve the situation by providing better meat alternatives (including, but not limited to, lab grown meat).

Switching to renewables and EVs is simple by comparison.


We will need lab grown food for the lab grown people.
Unfortunately we will still have to deal with swamp germinated politicians.
 
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This recent study seems relevant to this thread
Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth
“A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use,” said Joseph Poore, at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the research. “It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” he said, as these only cut greenhouse gas emissions.
 
I may be late to this discussion so forgive me if this has been brought up.
The issue I see is not so much meat consumption as the amount of meat consumption. Plus the factory farming of said meat is a problem as well. The health of the animals and the drugs given them concerns me on a moral and environmental level. I do not eat red meat but do eat fish and chicken.
But no too much I try and follow Michael Pollen's advice "eat real food,not to much,mostly vegetables"
 
Well, you don't get enough fiber! I did say meat and leaves worked, right? I think I said that.

You don't need fibre (proper ENGLISH spelling there ;)), fibre was an invention by the cereal industry to sell their products. This passed into "common wisdom" that it's necessary for health. This is not true, might even be damaging - I need to dig-out an article I read about this recently, will post when I find.

Maybe if you're eating junk food, then fibre might be needed to help the "good" biome bacteria keep-up with the bad guys thriving on the sugars.
 
If you remember which one it was I'd be interested in a link.

This one, I think it was:

Already 2 minutes in - CVD rates in Uganda versus white Americans. The Ugandans are vegetarian, the Americans are not, so he concludes that meat is the cause of the CVD. Totally wrong, very misleading, but people believe this. Correlation is not causation, multiple confounders involved. Can only point to potential causes.

There's not a single RCT showing that meat is bad for you; If meat were so bad, why aren't lions dying of CVD and cancer?
 
Plus plants seem to have a lot of antioxidants and anti cancer compounds which meat does not. Red meat has in fact been classified as a possible carcinogen and processed meat as carcinogen World Health Organization Says Processed Meat Causes Cancer

Well when you don't eat processed carbs and industrial seed-oils then you have no need for anti-oxidants.

The WHO study is complete BS: WHO Says Meat Causes Cancer?

However, I agree that processed meat is not the best thing you can eat, I eat a little as a treat, but that's all.
 
I may be late to this discussion so forgive me if this has been brought up.
The issue I see is not so much meat consumption as the amount of meat consumption. Plus the factory farming of said meat is a problem as well. The health of the animals and the drugs given them concerns me on a moral and environmental level. I do not eat red meat but do eat fish and chicken.
But no too much I try and follow Michael Pollen's advice "eat real food,not to much,mostly vegetables"

Yes, the whole factory-farming system is abhorrent.

Pollan's advice is pretty decent, but you don't need the vegetables. If you like them, fine, but for some they cause health issues.

Sounds weird, right? Not really, plants evolved defence-mechanisms against being eaten, so many of them contain a lot of toxins, small amounts, it's true, but they do make some people sick.

Fat is what human evolved to eat. Fat is the single most important macro-nutrient and it's essential for life. If you don't eat fats you will die - it's called "rabbit starvation".

Fats have been wrongly vilified for the last 50 years, with zero science to back-up the claims. New research and huge anecdotal evidence, is now demonstrating that a high-fat diet is extremely beneficial and can reverse most symptoms of metabolic syndrome, even T2D.

Of course there's huge establishment FUD against this, because they want to keep you all sick so they can keep selling their drugs.
 
If meat were so bad, why aren't lions dying of CVD and cancer?
They are obligate carnivores with different, proportionally shorter, digestive systems than humans. They also don't cook or season their food.
Unlike herbivores, carnivores have no requirement for the caecum. In lions, it is approximately 10cm and positioned in reverse to that of the human tract. It is believed to have evolved this way to allow consumption of bone fragments and porcupine quills without blocking the tract. (Smith et al, 2006)
The simple digestive tract of lions allows for efficient digestion of prey animals but, in contrast with herbivores, limited digestion of more complex fibre sources.
Digestive System
 
Actually, if I could survive on cauliflower, brussel sprouts, vegetable oil, a fryer to fry it in, and some salt to taste, I might could live on that. Deep fried sprouts and cauliflower. Totally awesome dish.

I have no problem with an auto manufacturer switching to non-leather only, but I can understand why Tesla is not in any hurry to make it happen. It's just not the priority right now. It might come in time. Bring it up every now and then, but try not to nag. Just get it on the back burner.
 
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Let me try to address some of these points first with some evolutionary perspective. Imagine yourself our early ancestors with limited tools of stone and wood. You have a choice for food, you can walk up to a plant and start eating it, or you can spend time and energy making a weapon, tracking prey, hopefully catching that prey without injuring yourself, skinning it, gutting it, hopefully cooking it properly, and still possibly risking parasites and poisonous bacteria, especially if fire is unavailable. Just from a time and energy use perspective I'd take the easy route and eat the plant material, even plant material that required cooking would be easier.

Pollan's advice is pretty decent, but you don't need the vegetables. If you like them, fine, but for some they cause health issues.

This is a poor argument because pretty much anything causes health issues in someone. Epigenetic alterations from drugs and pollutants in the environment have likely altered the natural responses of many people to some degree.

Sounds weird, right? Not really, plants evolved defence-mechanisms against being eaten, so many of them contain a lot of toxins, small amounts, it's true, but they do make some people sick.
Again, same problem as above, some people might react negatively to something. Plus many plants in fact evolved to be eaten, at least parts of them, as a way to distribute their seeds. Fruits are the prime example, the plants evolved sweet tasty covering for their seeds. If they had damaging compounds animals and people wouldn't eat them, seeds would not get distributed within a conducive growing medium, (waste), and the plants would likely go extinct.

Fat is what human evolved to eat. Fat is the single most important macro-nutrient and it's essential for life. If you don't eat fats you will die - it's called "rabbit starvation".

Fats are of course part of a balanced diet. "Rabbit starvation" is quite rare. Related to my previous point above, if fats are "the single most important macro-nutrient" why does almost no one desire to eat pure fat on it's own, (which most people think is tasteless and rather gross), and why do most people crave sweets and sugar, which fat and meat have almost none, but fruit is loaded with? Why would we have taste receptors for sweetness if it weren't a signal for us to eat foods containing it?


Of course there's huge establishment FUD against this, because they want to keep you all sick so they can keep selling their drugs.

I have a big problem with this line of reasoning, it's sort of a conspiracy theory tactic which people use to argue the moon landing never happened and the earth is really flat. The fact is many independent researchers and doctors have done a lot of work trying to find the truth with no other agenda. Dr Greger for example reads through hundreds of studies and gives away his interpretations for free on youtube, not even monetizing his videos. Yes he has a book but since he gives away all his findings for free and updates them constantly I can't imagine any reason to buy the book. He's a Dr. who has experienced first hand improvements in his patients through switching to a more plant based diet, and provides a number of studies backing up his claims. Clinical trials, in vitro experiments, and population studies, all combining to reach a similar conclusion. The "establishment trying to keep you sick" argument doesn't hold water when part of the "establishment" is a well funded meat industry pushing their agenda as well.

A final word on phytates and oxalates as "anti nutrients". Yes they can limit some absorption of some compounds but most plants have an abundance of those compounds compared to meat and thus a slight reduction in absorption doesn't have an overall negative effect. Plus other plant foods can counteract their effects, spinach is high in oxlates but vitamin C can negate that. Eat your spinach with a bell pepper. The idea that anti nutrients are a protective measure used by plants to avoid being eaten doesn't hold up since any negative effects might not show up for months or not at all, it's a pretty weak defense.
 
Ok don’t jump on me but I am seriously curious. Someone asked me here would I wear a human skin and it got me thinking about situations and what vegans would say about the following
1. If blindness was alternative option would a true vegan accept a corneal transplant?
2. Severe valvular heart disease would an elderly vegan accept a pig valve (yes there are mechanical valves but some people cannot be anti coagulated to get one)
3. Liver lung kidney kidney skin transplants to save life an option from living or dead donors an option?